So since nobody else is going to do it, I'll go ahead and make it for you.

A sort of place for this discussion to be had in a meaningful sort of place without devolving into toxicity:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/740752/d ... generalAll

So sort of the point brought up here is that this song isn't appropriate for a rhythm game, since it's a meme song or something like that? (At least that's what I'm getting from the thread). It seems that a lot of the discussion is focused moreso on the fact that the map is based on a singular idea of copy-pasting that people find boring and repetitive and not indicative of a high quality map. NOTE that I'm not looking at any of the further discussion, since that devolves into all sorts of stuff, but I'm looking at the ORIGINAL post that brought up the need for a discussion.

I am personally of the idea that song choice shouldn't be something that is particularly restricted. While we are content creators first and foremost, that relies primarily on the fact that we are producing maps that are of a high quality to be played by the community. So maps that don't play well or aren't enjoyable to play for any population (I make this distinction because there are plenty of maps that aren't enjoyable for top level players, but appeal to other factions of the community) don't get ranked. So whatever we produce should have some sort of quality to it. The song choice, however, is completely free to our liking, and sometimes that means mapping songs that are a little bit silly. Because we are not boring people and enjoy making maps that have some special quirks to them. Sometimes these sorts of joke maps don't really work, but if they're created and intuitive for the community to play, then I see no reason why they should be restricted.

On top of this, it's difficult to sort of really determine what a line is on "songs that are acceptable for the game." I believe firmly that if something is going to be enforced, it needs to have explicit guidelines. If we're going to say "This song isn't okay" then why explicitly is it not okay? This sort of popped up when discussing NSFW content ( t/684003&start=0 ) that there needs to be some sort of things I can reference and be like "okay, does my song fit within the rules?" Do YTPMVs / NNDs count as "not appropriate for the game"? How about cover songs? (ie. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/368346 ).

As a sort of proposed compromise, if people are really against having "meme songs" in the ranked section, you could always make it a guideline that songs be pushed for the loved section if they aren't... serious enough?? (I'm really not sure of the proper verbage you'd use).

I'd love to hear some discussion about this. I'd also like to motivate people in the future to sort of make these threads on their own when issues like this sort of come up. The ranking criteria is the most important tool that we have to improving the future of osu!, as it allows us to sort of set precedents of how to improve the game for years to come. It's important to use situations and maps like this to realize "Is this map acceptable? Why or why not? Should we have some sort of change to prevent this in the future?"

tl;dr the rule I hypothetically would propose would look something like

Song Choice: Some songs may be more funny than actually appropriate for ranked play. In this case, songs that are meant to be seen as humorous may be recommended for the Loved section, instead of the ranked section

Please remember RC discussion rules and such, I'd really not like this thread to turn into berating as it did in the thread discussion, I'd like for it to be a place where we can actually discuss this.

the majority of osu! players are male age 13-20... even if you wanted to destroy meme maps it's not like that will ever happen.

besides, how can you set criteria for whether or not a song is a meme? only allow songs with 37 or more "anti-meme points"--?

Reading though the entire drama of posts, I side most with these two comments:



If we ever get an big influx of joke meme maps, then maybe it should stop and we should talk about it. One getting ranked once in a while is nothing to start crying about. I think we should allow these "lower quality" maps through once in a while since casual players like to joke around among their friends and such, and would like to get pp for doing a good job for a joke.

I also think the people involved with the modding community are pursuing quality to the extent that they have lost sight as to what that means to majority playerbase, towards the casual player who logs in once in a while to have fun. They set their sights to focus mostly on the experienced players who are looking for maps they can use to further their skills on, not to joke around.

CDFA wrote:

text

no, no, no. Please, Loved section already was treated as a trash can when you was able to shoot kd stars and put anything in. Now it's handled in right direction and recommending in guidelines or rules to fill it with songs that are not suitable for ranked(your opinion) just because they are meme is something really wrong.

To the matter - I don't think we need such rule or guideline, as ranked section is mostly community driven we already have mechanisms to gain feedback if something feels appropriate or not. Additional to this is just possibility to stop something from being ranked when there is consolidated agreement from people responsible, that is already wip and discussed in other topic.

regulating against song choice outside of reasons beyond content appropriateness re: the rules is totally out of place and well beyond the scope of the ranking criteria

we have to define the rules in regards of what is appropriate and what is not. if the rule can not be defined, we should have a voting system to make a decision on controversial cases.

Ephemeral wrote:

regulating against song choice outside of reasons beyond content appropriateness re: the rules is totally out of place and well beyond the scope of the ranking criteria

I can rank a metronome song with a single sample with a square pattern repeating itself. It is completely rankable and allowed now, and nobody cant stop that no matter what.

Is it a song? - well, it has rhythm so technically yes ☑
Follows RC? ☑
Does it reflect the song? ☑
Players like it? subjective = ☑
Is it stupid by itself? subjective = ☑

perfectly rankable and suitable as official content.

we have to implement a voting system where BNs could vote whether a map is appropriate or not.

Ah yes, I do agree with CDFA. Meme maps are ruining this game for these who is seriously trying to make a good maps putting sufficient amount of effort, but these meme ones arent improving the quality of ranked section, nor encouraging people to put more effort in their maps.

say, if some garbage getting ranked with no effort in it, why should I bother making something outstanding and sophisticated?

put some shit here and there, nobody gonna care @ Hobbes2

I really don't like the idea of the RC having anything related to the song itself. Yes mapping and trying to rank a fucking metronome is stupid, but why the hell would anyone do that in the first place? It'd also be really easy to stop it from ranking based on map quality if the map isn't just the same thing copypasted because everything else would be basically random.

There are many songs that are controversial and that many would probably describe as garbage (Traumatic or Pitch Fucker come to mind for me), doesn't mean that some people don't like them. Regarding the meme harumachi clover that started this, I tbh find it quite catchy and not a terrible song to listen to, even if it's a dumb meme at its core.

That being said, some sort of BN based voting system could work, but there'd also still be the issue of circlejerk which will always be present to some extent, and any voting system would further advantage those with connections to as many BNs as possible (in an ideal world it wouldn't matter, but humans usually don't just ignore their social connections for some higher morality, at least most don't).

Overall I don't really see the harm in mapping meme songs, as low effort as the maps usually are, many players do like playing them, especially in multi. It can be fun. It won't necessarily get additional value from getting ranked, but I wouldn't say it devalues the ranking section either. Sure it doesn't add much, but neither does the 8th regular version of harumachi clover, or any other generic tv size where the song has been mapped before.

[deleted as part of purging my old post history]

Believing a vote is the fittest option is a logical fallacy as the number of people supporting an argument has little to do with its strength, if any.

Also, whether meme maps are not improving the quality of the ranked section is subjective. Mapping's strength stems from its diversity, and I believe it's nice to have a few silly maps that just make you laugh thinking " what the hell is this " as part of the game's official content because they represent the part of the mapping community that does not take it seriously. To me, as long as the map itself is suitable for rank, then there is no reason for the song's seriousness to be a limiting factor, nor is there one for mappers struggling to rank their own set to be offended as a map's quality is independent from its underlying song's in this case.

Can we just have it where it's up to BNs decided whether or not something is fine? (and their votes weighted equally ofc)

Whether or not a song is inappropriate and nsfw is already made to the GMTs discretion; I wish it was similar with the quality of a song and the beatmap nominator division

AyanokoRin wrote:

Also, whether meme maps are not improving the quality of the ranked section is subjective. Mapping's strength stems from its diversity, and I believe it's nice to have a few silly maps that just make you laugh thinking " what the hell is this " as part of the game's official content because they represent the part of the mapping community that does not take it seriously.

Let me enlight you about something. Meme maps are creating precedents for actually bad and low quality maps as an excuse for mappers. Its been proven 10000000000000000000 times in different map threads people were using "well, here its ranked in this %map_name% why cant i do the same?" and they get away with this constantly.

AyanokoRin wrote:

I believe it's nice to have a few silly maps that just make you laugh thinking " what the hell is this "

Its not few now, there are hundreds of them already in the game, which breaks the image of Ranking Section where good maps are (or supposed to be?).

I can feel that you dont really care about quality since for you its all "subjective" + "rankable" and you dont count ethical aspect at all. What kind of example it shows for people? What it entails for the future of mapping?

You just dont care. But we do.

Can we all just realize that osu! is a game to play and not art to be admired? I personally think that yes it is fine for songs that are ‘memes’ to be ranked. If you really feel the need to, bring up a veto based on that to stop the map or a DQ request. There is no harm and I am of the opinion of AyanokoRin that it is fun to play for a few laughs. Bringing up any kind of objective rule for blocking song remixes would be impossible as it would block both legitimate and meme remixes. I believe the only way to do this would be by, as said before, vetos and DQ requests being handled professionally, and not by a type of rule. I believe that the reason we have a BNG and QAT is that because it is essentially impossible at this place in time to have a criteria or robot that can do all of these things.

hi-mei wrote:

Let me enlight you about something. Meme maps are creating precedents for actually bad and low quality maps as an excuse for mappers. Its been proven 10000000000000000000 times in different map threads people were using "well, here its ranked in this %map_name% why cant i do the same?" and they get away with this constantly.

People involved in a ranking\qualification\disqualification process don't take this as argument, you've informed wrong.

hi-mei wrote:

Its not few now, there are hundreds of them already in the game, which breaks the image of Ranking Section where good maps are (or supposed to be?).

I can feel that you dont really care about quality since for you its all "subjective" + "rankable" and you dont count ethical aspect at all. What kind of example it shows for people? What it entails for the future of mapping?

You just dont care. But we do.

This is a mess. People play to get fun, right? Mapping meme song while content is appropriate is alright - we have rules for this. Trying to rank such songs while quality of mapping is deemed as appropriate is alright.

Talking about ethical aspect can only be applied to abusing the system in some way not about that you want to see only serious (what is this anyway) stuff in ranked section.

Just look at the "Popular Beatmaps" and you know there's something wrong already.

Joke aside, meme maps is not the right term for a potential rule, but more like Avoid remixes who distort the original music in a way than it's sounds innapropriate for rank as a guideline, and let BN/QAT decide if a song is k to pass or not.

This sounds probably stupid and won't lead to anything but at least I tried.
I thought we had more respect for original songs to avoid going for weird remix like that.

Sieg wrote:

People involved in a ranking\qualification\disqualification process don't take this as argument, you've informed wrong.

I believe you are wrong? How can you prove that thats not the case when literally yesterday people raised the same concerns about Nao's map? Hello?



And please do bother to add some example to prove me wrong next time.

This is a mess.

Trying to rank such songs while quality of mapping is deemed as appropriate is alright.

Talking about ethical aspect can only be applied to abusing the system in some way not about that you want to see only serious (what is this anyway) stuff in ranked section.

Man, your points look like an anecdote, you literally contradicting yourself in the same paragraph.

please make sure to read this https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/740752/d ... generalAll discussion

hi-mei wrote:

say, if some garbage getting ranked with no effort in it, why should I bother making something outstanding and sophisticated?

We should not have to supply a mapper's motivations on a silver platter. To anyone who seriously considers just making meme maps and low-effort jokes because other people get away with it, I say this: have some integrity and self-respect. That's what any relatively free community relies on.

hi-mei wrote:

Ah yes, I do agree with CDFA. Meme maps are ruining this game for these who is seriously trying to make a good maps putting sufficient amount of effort, but these meme ones arent improving the quality of ranked section, nor encouraging people to put more effort in their maps.

Gonna stop you right there, I love meme maps and feel that they should be kept in the game as long as they're mapped well and are to the standards of the ranking criteria lmao. I made the thread because people were sort of devolving to shitting on each other in the beatmap thread instead of actually doing something productive.

Will have an actual reply when I get home, currently at class.

CDFA wrote:

hi-mei wrote:

Ah yes, I do agree with CDFA. Meme maps are ruining this game for these who is seriously trying to make a good maps putting sufficient amount of effort, but these meme ones arent improving the quality of ranked section, nor encouraging people to put more effort in their maps.

Gonna stop you right there, I love meme maps and feel that they should be kept in the game as long as they're mapped well and are to the standards of the ranking criteria lmao. I made the thread because people were sort of devolving to shitting on each other in the beatmap thread instead of actually doing something productive.

Will have an actual reply when I get home, currently at class.

I mean, I do agree that well mapped stuff is absolutely OKAY, we are talking here about the extreme cases such as my example of 30 sec metronome map that spawms squares with 10 degree clockwise rotation.

Does it have a flow? - yeah, circluar flow, perfectly fine and playable
Structure? - yeah, squares and rotation, perfectly fine
hitsounds and shit - easy doable in 5 mins of time to make sure it follows RC.


And we have nothing to stop that kind of absurd. I do have people whos interested in pushing such thing in ranked to create a precedent and show to everyone how underdone the rules are in the common sense aspect... but lets stick to the discussion for now.

Wait but we do have people to stop that kind of stuff, their name is the QAT and BNG.

Aeril wrote:

Wait but we do have people to stop that kind of stuff, their name is the QAT and BNG.

They are no longer influential on something deemed as "subjective". We had a long discussion about that in dev discord already. Peppy restrictred QAT's ability of actually assuring quality after Asymmetry drama.