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posted
Meanwhile, osu!mania players dont even care xD
posted

jesse1412 wrote:

This is a very well thought out post but I think you're missing the point that peppy/tom made. Touchscreen players get bad accuracy because of latency issues, not inheritly because touchscreen is bad at acc. Solving the problem using accuracy curves is hence only a short term solution. Eventually someone will be able to do this with touchscreen and get 90%+. Do we keep shifting the threshold for receiving pp further and further back until anything less than 98% is discarded? Axarious' Kuchizuke Diamond play is only 93% acc. What happens when touchscreen players start getting 93% acc scores? Do we just throw away axarious' play, despite it being insane?

I'll say it again, touchscreen and tablet/mouse can't be compared. People need to stop trying to compare them.
I agree the playstyles are just too different to cover for both, however I don't consider the fact that touchscreen players are able to set insane scores an actual "problem". If a touchscreen player would turn up with a 90% play... that would be insane and admirable, at that point I could hardly call it problematic and the pp would be more "earned" and "deserved" than it is now. Shifting and adjusting accuracy factors would be a one-time change, but at that point it would be more about opinion and perspective I would say.
I think it would be a step in the right direction as a basic concept, and can be improved further as needed.
Your argument is valid though, since it's more of latency issue for touchscreen than actual player skill that hinders accuracy it's not really a great solution in the end but it would put the problem at hand into a more acceptable relation.
posted
well to add a point of argument about the touchscreen leaderboards... if something what would fix it is making touchscreen players use PPV1 making it so that if they dont acc they dont get good pp. like for example freedom diver's score is not in the top 50 on haitai which means that in PPV1 he would have gotten basically no pp at all.

i know this may be an unfair system but that is probably the only way to do it until we could find a way too make a new system for touchscreen only.
posted
I think touchscreen just needs to be a separate gamemode tbh
and people need to stop playing for ranks ffs
in my opinion, the pp system is absolutely fine as it is
freedomdiver didn't just pull the score out of his ass, it took skill and effort, and I see no reason to discredit it just because it's harder to do that on a tablet or mouse
I am fairly certain we won't be seeing all the other touchscreen players suddenly churning out 900pp plays anytime soon
what we will likely see soon is "normal" players setting 900pp scores. nobody will complain about the pp system then I can assure you
just fuckin chill, and play to improve yourself and not to pass others in ranks
I play because its really really enjoyable to watch myself get better and better at things I suck at
pp and rank is just an added bonus
posted
Considering the fact that lazer will be available on phones, making separate "Touch" leaderboards would be the best option. It will most likely be that more players will use touchscreens, or their phones, to play osu! in the future, so why delay the making of leaderboards for a vastly different way to play. This could also pull new players, who would rather play osu! with a touchscreen, into the game because they could be compared with other touch players instead of mouse and tablet players.
Even if the creation of another leaderboard would take many weeks, like it was in the original post, I don't think that many players would have a problem with not having a bug fix here or there that doesn't affect gameplay. If you guys want to wait until after lazer is released, then that's reasonable, but making a separate leaderboard for touch may be your best solution.

No matter what you're decision is finally; there isn't really anything we can do but keep playing. ;)
posted
To amend my previous suggestion, the only part I will agree with the complaints is it being easier to miss more on a long map. The longer a map is the less each miss should hurt the hit objects part of the score. Which would make sense as 4 miss HR score might be considered worse on a short map than the nomod FC but better on a long map. We could change it to some system where each miss is compared against the total number of objects so hitting 99% and missing 1% would give eact same hit objects score every time.

Also I don’t understand how “Accuracy is more important on long maps” regardless of map length it’s 300k Score.

(Basically I am suggesting Taikos score system but with more emphasis on # of misses than Taiko does currently, yes long maps you’ll get more misses on but the length bonus negates them. In fact most of the high PP scores in Taiko are on longer maps. TV size maps only really exist at the lower levels)
posted

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

I didn't wanted to state my opinion on reddit due how cancerous is that community (and this opinion could never see a daylight).

1. Touchscreens

Main difficulty to play on this device is input lag which is significantly higher than any mouse/tablet (imagine that random 5$ mouse is better at this point). By hardware, this device is not build for rapid movements and tapping at this kind of speed. Unless you are using high-end device (like Surface Pro with dedicated CPU, not ARM/Mini like Atom) this input lag just increase due that CPU needs to handle game calculation and parse touch input (which works a bit differently from CPU code point of view than external pointing device). There is a reason why many old good TS plays are with EZ mode. Having good acc on high OD exceeding 9-10 is a challenge, big one, I don't say it is impossible but for sure it is challenging.
True, but only for now. In the future the input lag will be reduced and the problem will be back. This argument is irrelevant in the big picture. Touchscreen acc won't be as hard to achieve in a few years.
We are talking about present, not the future. I doubt in next few years 1-10ms input lag instead of ~50-100ms like now will be available for customer for decent amount of money which will not be considered waste.

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

2. Players

Honestly, how many of them are here? 10-20? 100? 1000? Like seriously. They are a non-visible percentage of playerbase, yet enraged community for completely stupid reason wants to separate them from everyone else. Personally I don't care, at all. While literally eating popcorn, consuming energy drink and reading reddit most of this people made me laugh and facepalm a lot with idiocy of "how touchscreen players are bad" / "ban them" / "separate from playerbase". Don't come with ranking and pp because it is already inflated with imbalanced pp made by few mappers which focused on ONLY ONE skill - aim - yet you complain when someone is using a device made specifically to play an aim based map. Pointless, not gonna comment more, there is nothing to say about that. It is just hypocrisy.
I'm glad you don't care about the problem, so you can fuck right off out of this thread and continue not caring. You're ignoring the issue yet again because it's okay right now. The problem will only get worse, what will your argument be then?
If you didn't notice, I have 779 hours in std and it gives me right to actually speak about it. Cut your childish "you can fuck right off" already, it is amusing in this civilized discussion.
Let me explain something:
Yes, I don't see the problem. If I was 4-digit, I would still not see the problem, same comes to 3-digit, 2-digit, 1-digit. I simply don't really care. If right now someone could develop device which would make CTB way easier than it is now and gain massive amount of pp by it - idc either. Mainly because touchscreen is good at ONE type of maps.
Do you see huge scores on stream maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see any scores on pure tech maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see huge scores on marathon maps with touchscreen? No!
So where is the problem? That touchscreen is way better at jump maps? Well.... happens, there will be always pros and cons of each playstyle.
Tablet allows you to use Tap+X playstyle which if properly used enable you to achieve extreme speeds which is impossible only for keyboard (or more like barely possible).
And so on....

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

3. Maps, mapping

I see main problem here. What maps can handle touchscreen? Pure aim based with almost no triples / bursts. What "meta" we have now? Inflate aim pp with 30s maps. I could ask - where is balance of TV size maps which were build with pure difficulty containing aim based patterns, bursts and a little of semi-tech (flow/anti-flow) patterns? It doesn't exist now. How about I ask TS players to achieve same on for example Kuchizuke Diamond Lemur? Nope, sorry - bursts/triples/antiflow will keep them away, despite this is one of heavy overweighted maps. Daidai? Same - nope, lots of triples and burst in middle. Koigokoro? Same - nope. You get it? Before - TV size, mid/full-size maps were balanced around several skillsets and they gave either balanced amount of pp or were developed to be overweighted but in general aimed to force player to be efficient in not only one but at least 2 skills at once.

What it is right now? HaiTai, Cookie Monster (specifically map which made me quit STD), spam of Harumachi (where only one contain "bursts", god bless this one difficulty). Sorry guys but it is YOUR fault for accepting this maps. It is your fault that mappers are not punished for making such maps. YOU are supposed to notice them and veto shit out of them.

Do you think situation like that could happen when you didn't allow mappers to make 30s pure aim, extremely overweighted maps? I doubt it.
Ah yes, the old "it's da maps xd" argument. I'm going to get autism if I have to explain why pp can't be balanced to work for touchscreen and mouse/tablet. I already have given proof that short aim only maps AREN'T the "mete" right now, yet here the argument is again. Provide me some evidence that the meta is what you say it is and then put forward another argument, then I'll actually be inclined to take your points seriously. Stop blaming the 10% of players that rely on tv size jump maps for pp. 90% of players don't do that, stop blaming the players. You're just looking for a scapegoat that isn't touchscreen from what I can see.
Not old "it's just da maps" but actual PARTIAL ISSUE. Over end of 2016 and 2017, there was ranked way more short high star maps than anytime before which created clear opportunity for touchscreen players to shine. If you followed GnR, there is a topic created 2 years ago by _Meep_ which list playable touchscreen maps (ref. t/401384&start=0). There isn't many.
But - as I said, this amount drastically increased over last year (where actually topic is not updated by obvious reason).

You want argument why short maps are meta? Here are numbers. Searching criteria - Length = 60s and lower, Minimum difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 39 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 35 maps
2015 - 19 maps
2014 - 10 maps
2013 - 3 maps
2012 and down - not found or single maps.

I will not count maps below 2 min which are considered as TV-size once because numbers will be similar for each year. From other way:
Length = above 180s (3 min, full size), Minimal star difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 249 maps (year not finished yet)
2016 - 271 maps
2015 - 283 maps
2014 - 141 maps
2013 - 99 maps

Length = between 60 and 180 seconds, minimal diff = 4,5*
2017 - 379 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 430 maps
2015 - 418 maps
2014 - 270 maps
2013 - 194 maps

As you can see, just in 2016/2017 mappers made over twice as much maps below 60s which in majority are perfect for touchscreen players than in other years together. From other way, tendency to create full size and marathon maps is lowering from 2015. Numbers are taken from osusearch.com so this is only view type statistics (I take into consideration that this portal may not see something / bug / whatever).
Opinion about "short maps are meta now" is still valid considering rising amount of mappers and ranked maps each year. Most new mappers tend to focus on easy patterns (mainly jumps) and short maps.

I don't know from where you took 10/90% ratio. To do "abuse worthy" statistic, you need to start from ceretain point which isn't 11 mil. registered accounts but around 150-100k active players in the ranking. At that point, this ratio looks completely different.

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

4. Ranking and competition

Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.

TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.
Ranking IS competitive, if it wasn't then ANYONE could achieve top 100. The fact the it's insanely difficult to rank up is proof alone that ranking is the definition of competitive. Also your argument makes no sense. You say that aim-only players are the issue, and then talk about how it's a tragedy that 1 trick ponies aren't competitive? Where is the logic in that?
Ranking isn't something where places are capped at certain point to achieve them. There will be always top 100. Only amount of points to achieve it will change. What people call a touchscreen problem is not really at the top where I guess only one or two players can compete but in mid-ranking range where more people play it and can abuse actuall mapping to gain way more pp easier, where "easier" doesn't mean that every single one of them will actually achieve top100 that fast as others (ref. valid proof of each player progressing of its own natural speed).

Please read with understanding - I didn't said OTP are not competitive.
Before "big boom" for short maps with simple jump style patterns and non-existant or rare bursts, OTP were punished for not being efficient in all skillsets.
Right now, OTP are in good position to rank up without much problems.
So, competition should be made in correct rules - to achieve high rank before, you had to be efficient in all skillsets.
Right now you just need to have aim, nothing else.
You call that competitive ranking?
Sorry, I disagree.

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

As I said, touchscreen is not a problem. It is only for people who doesn't realize fact that for example in 2015, this hardware had REALLY low amount of playable maps, there is even topic in GnR with list of playable maps for touchscreen. Whole boom started when mappers started abusing ranking criteria + pp formula and made 30s to 1m super short, pure aim based maps which are perfect for touchscreen. They went crazy with 6* less than 1 min map, like WTF? And now people are crying that touchscreen is broken.

osu! is still a rhythm game, there is great amount of good maps (look at RLC, Pishi, fanzhen, 09kami and more mappers who said "No" to pp mapping and still making amazing full size balanced maps and from semi to full tech maps) which require more than just jumping ability. Problem is in mappers who influence massive amount of pp for one particular skillset and onwards, breaking completely ranking allowing one-trick-ponies to gain way higher rank than they initially deserve.
It's nice to know that you think that only maps YOU like should be ranked. Cry some more. This game is played by hundreds of thousands of people who each like different things. No one cares that YOU don't like those maps, and no one should. I dislike tv size maps myself, but I'm not a selfish prick and I understand that some people do enjoy them. I'm not going to argue that we should punish those people by not allowing their preferred maps to get ranked, all because of a small subset of other players are abuse an overpowered peripheral.

Tag4 maps were unranked because of touchscreen too. They're very different from the genre of map that you're displeased with as possible, yet no one talks about them. Why is that? If you can't tell yet, it's because people are stupid and can't see that the issue isn't "tv size aim maps".
Again, read with understanding, I didn't said anything about "I don't like this". My whole statment is neutral in term of personalization. Please do not accuse me for this here.
posted
Standard only problem (if it is a problem), let them solve it
posted

DarthSkrill wrote:

Standard only problem (if it is a problem), let them solve it
Technically touchscreen is OP in Taiko too as you can get insane speeds due to 8 finger inputs while normally you only have 2 for kat and 2 for don. Especially with some bizzare converts that will have a spam of 1/32 monocolors that is normally impossible to play using 2 fingers is possible with 8 fingers rapidly tapping on the screen.

So why isn’t the top play in Taiko from a touch screen?

Simple, input lag from touchscreen and that ACC is most important factor in Taiko.

( but it’s still worth mentioning)
posted
Thank you, Peppy, for considering a way to fix issues with touchscreen.
I hope you find out a fun way to balance it and to maybe prevent the community from being so toxic about it :( .
I enjoy playing touchscreen only because I can't use my other hand to tap the keyboard very well, as I'm not really able to click so much without having a deep-seated pain in my wrist. So I guess I'm odd in the fact that I only play with my one hand, really.
I additionally cannot do "mouse only" or "tablet only" either. I have a tremble in my hands that messes with stuff I do a lot.
I'm still very impressed by freedomdiver's play, because it pushed the limits of touchscreen and really was quite incredible.
But I honestly wish it had never been made.
Because now there's just a small community of players who are generally only proficient at certain maps, difficult jump maps or very fast jump maps or sometimes TAG4 maps, that are being absolutely hated. And a very fair portion of us aren't as well known or as good at playing touchscreen as players such as freedomdiver, or itsamemarioo, or CatBagasm, or Girl.
It might have annoyed some people, for a good while.
Being able to NC/DT the highest difficulty of Cookie-Butter-Choco-Cookie for example is difficult, and is less difficult for the touchscreen player than any other kind of player, for example. Or being able to set a very high score on a Granat map. Additionally, of course, the map that the 900pp play was made on. Haitai Ultimate.
But that's it. Every touchscreen player seems to develop this repertoire of maps that they focus on setting highscores on, and I guess you could say they focus on abusing it for pp.
That's generally because they can't play other maps very well, at least from what I've seen.
I enjoy being able to compete against my friends who play tablet or mouse well, and to see my scores compared to theirs in the same system, and to still have to work hard to surpass them. I can do jumps fairly well, but reading them is difficult. I can barely play through streams, yet I still do. It's absurd whenever a touchscreen player can. I get to be proud when I finally pass a map with streams as well as other stuff in it and manage to beat a friend's score.
I guess I'm not really making much of an argument overall, here.
I'm just asking you to please, don't ruin the way playing as a touchscreen player works. Fix it, change it up, but don't make it so competing with touchscreen only is absolutely absurd or very difficult to do. Don't separate us from the rest of the community based on the abuse of a few maps and playing the same game a different way.
Thank you for this game and what you do for the community of it :D
posted
Don't separate us from the rest of the community based on the abuse of a few maps and playing the same game a different way.
This is all cry about unfortunately. I agree that separating touchscreen players from playerbase would be complete bullshit.

Only thing what could be done is just create another mod, force rule that touchscreen plays needs to be made with it and lower aim value in pp formula for it.
I think there is not even need to force touchscreen rules, as osu! is C# based, it can simply use
        [DllImport("user32.dll")]
public static extern int GetSystemMetrics(int nIndex);

public static bool isTouchEnabled()
{
int MAXTOUCHES_INDEX = 0x95;
int maxTouches = GetSystemMetrics(MAXTOUCHES_INDEX);

return maxTouches > 0;
}
to recognize if device is a touchscreen or not.
posted
Thank you for not reacting to the outrage. The problem is way smaller than it seems.
posted
- technical maps are underrated on std

- no dual screening fl mods on taiko

- no esc pause button on mania

:D
posted
All that needs to be done is separate touchscreen from 1:1 input methods in lazer, the pp system does not need to change to accommodate them right away, although in the future, if the demand for a better system is asked for, you can simply devalue jumps and buff streams compared to the mouse/tablet scores because rewarding the more difficult thing is the way to go. This could create some issues though, like tablet players intentionally using the auto-detection via fucking with their hovering a bit during the start or a break to play streamy maps as 'touchscreen players'... No system is perfect though eh.

It's not a big problem right now yeah but it can become one, the question is do you want to wait for it to become one to do something about it? That'd just alienate more people particularly touchscreen players who bought their expensive hardware to play osu! with everyone else and now feel segregated. Needs to be made clear from the start that this is not a fair way to compete with 99% of the people playing so no one gets the wrong idea, right now even the fact that it's right next to mouse/tablet/kb on your profile as an input method can give newer players the wrong idea. Akin to putting trackpap/trackball/joystick on there but for opposite reasons; people might assume they aren't hot garbage options.

Also Jesse's post is worth reading for anyone who skipped it because it's too long, you can trust my totally unbiased opinion on the matter, ignore my name
posted

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

To amend my previous suggestion, the only part I will agree with the complaints is it being easier to miss more on a long map. The longer a map is the less each miss should hurt the hit objects part of the score. Which would make sense as 4 miss HR score might be considered worse on a short map than the nomod FC but better on a long map. We could change it to some system where each miss is compared against the total number of objects so hitting 99% and missing 1% would give eact same hit objects score every time.
By reducing the impact of a miss based on map length you introduce another issue. A long map with a difficulty spike at the end will be overweighted. 3 or 4 misses will cause only a small pp reduction (say, 15%). At the spike, you could ignore some of the notes to easily hit half the notes and receive only a small penalty.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Also I don’t understand how “Accuracy is more important on long maps” regardless of map length it’s 300k Score.

(Basically I am suggesting Taikos score system but with more emphasis on # of misses than Taiko does currently, yes long maps you’ll get more misses on but the length bonus negates them. In fact most of the high PP scores in Taiko are on longer maps. TV size maps only really exist at the lower levels)
Yeah I worded this badly. What I meant to say is that the length of the map doesn't really change the difficulty to get those 300k acc points, while it does change the difficulty to get the 700k combo points.

[Taiga] wrote:

We are talking about present, not the future. I doubt in next few years 1-10ms input lag instead of ~50-100ms like now will be available for customer for decent amount of money which will not be considered waste.
The technology will eventually come though, maybe not next year but in 5-10 years it'll definitely be there. The fact that it probably won't be affordable for most people just makes the touchscreen problem even worse because only rich people will be able to abuse touchscreen pp.

[Taiga] wrote:

If you didn't notice, I have 779 hours in std and it gives me right to actually speak about it. Cut your childish "you can fuck right off" already, it is amusing in this civilized discussion.
Let me explain something:
Yes, I don't see the problem. If I was 4-digit, I would still not see the problem, same comes to 3-digit, 2-digit, 1-digit. I simply don't really care. If right now someone could develop device which would make CTB way easier than it is now and gain massive amount of pp by it - idc either. Mainly because touchscreen is good at ONE type of maps.
Do you see huge scores on stream maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see any scores on pure tech maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see huge scores on marathon maps with touchscreen? No!
So where is the problem? That touchscreen is way better at jump maps? Well.... happens, there will be always pros and cons of each playstyle.
Tablet allows you to use Tap+X playstyle which if properly used enable you to achieve extreme speeds which is impossible only for keyboard (or more like barely possible).
And so on....
No one cares how many hours you've played. You said yourself that you don't care, so why are you here caring? I care. You clearly care. It's fine to care. I was more pointing out that it's ridiculous that you would even try to argue your point if you don't care. But if you truly don't care, then I don't understand why you're here? Why does your opinion matter if you don't agree with it enough to actually care about it?

You're basically saying that touchscreen is cheating, but only on aim maps, so it's okay. That's absurd. Let's try a different, but similar argument. Auto clicking macros are cheating, but only in streamy maps, so it's okay. Clicking macros make key inputs none 1:1 but you still have to click accurately which makes them essentially as advantageous as touchscreen, which despite not being 1:1, have to aim properly. Why is one cheating and one isn't?

Tap X is completely different because it's still a 1:1 input method. 1 tap, 1 key press. Even if It's "easier" to spam fast, tapx is irrelevant for this discussion because it is 1:1.

[Taiga] wrote:

Not old "it's just da maps" but actual PARTIAL ISSUE. Over end of 2016 and 2017, there was ranked way more short high star maps than anytime before which created clear opportunity for touchscreen players to shine. If you followed GnR, there is a topic created 2 years ago by _Meep_ which list playable touchscreen maps (ref. t/401384&start=0). There isn't many.
But - as I said, this amount drastically increased over last year (where actually topic is not updated by obvious reason).

You want argument why short maps are meta? Here are numbers. Searching criteria - Length = 60s and lower, Minimum difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 39 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 35 maps
2015 - 19 maps
2014 - 10 maps
2013 - 3 maps
2012 and down - not found or single maps.

I will not count maps below 2 min which are considered as TV-size once because numbers will be similar for each year. From other way:
Length = above 180s (3 min, full size), Minimal star difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 249 maps (year not finished yet)
2016 - 271 maps
2015 - 283 maps
2014 - 141 maps
2013 - 99 maps

Length = between 60 and 180 seconds, minimal diff = 4,5*
2017 - 379 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 430 maps
2015 - 418 maps
2014 - 270 maps
2013 - 194 maps

As you can see, just in 2016/2017 mappers made over twice as much maps below 60s which in majority are perfect for touchscreen players than in other years together. From other way, tendency to create full size and marathon maps is lowering from 2015. Numbers are taken from osusearch.com so this is only view type statistics (I take into consideration that this portal may not see something / bug / whatever).
Opinion about "short maps are meta now" is still valid considering rising amount of mappers and ranked maps each year. Most new mappers tend to focus on easy patterns (mainly jumps) and short maps.

I don't know from where you took 10/90% ratio. To do "abuse worthy" statistic, you need to start from ceretain point which isn't 11 mil. registered accounts but around 150-100k active players in the ranking. At that point, this ratio looks completely different.
Did you read my post? Let me quote myself:

jesse1412 wrote:

#1. Cookiezi - Top ranks don't consist of TV size maps (highest ranked player in the game doesn't do it, but it's apparently the problem). Doesn't rely on short maps.
#2. Rafis - 3 out of his top 20 scores are < 1 min 30 secs. 7 are longer than 4 minutes. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#3. Vaxei - Plays longer, VERY intense aim maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#4. filsdelama - Plays mostly long dt aim maps, with a large amount of dthdhr scores. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#5. firebat92 - Basically the same kind of player as rafis. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#6. hvick225 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#7. _RyuK - Arguably abuses short maps.
#8. Emilia - Plays extreme jump maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#9. Mathi - Variety player, does a bit of everything. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#10. Rohulk - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#11. Piggey - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#12. Spare - Plays a mix of dt and nomod. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#13. Bubbleman - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#14. Dustice - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#15. mcy3 - Hands down abuses short maps.
#16. idke - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#17. Happystick - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#18. Yaong - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#19. bro_gamer72 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#20. index - Doesn't rely on short maps.

1 of those players clearly abuses short maps. 1 player heavily uses them. At best that's 1/10.

I could keep going, but the trend is the same. Your imaginary problem doesn't exist. Stop making up COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Why do I have to spend my time checking all these players because you've made up an argument that's impossible to refute without wasting time checking? 80%? I'd guess closer to 10%, at which point, is it really abusing? If short maps were SO overrated then why in the world aren't top players relying on them?
How can you argue that short maps are the meta when I went through and checked the top ranks of each player in the top 20 and found the opposite? Not only do you say that my findings are wrong, you also go as far as to say that the opposite is true, yet again without providing any evidence; presumably because none exists. The 10% statistic comes from me looking at the top 20 players and finding that 2 of them seem to play a disproportionate amount of short aim maps.

We can use your own metrics to show the issue too, but I must stress that the amount of short aim maps doesn't demonstrate the current pp meta. There may be more maps, but that doesn't mean people are getting a larger proportion of their pp from said maps. A "short" map is generally a map <90 seconds long. The difficulty of those maps are usually about 4*+, that's around the difficulty of entry level farm maps.

Length <= 60, stars > 4:
2011 - 120
2012 - 155 (29% increase)
2013 -159 (3% increase)
2014 - 250 (57% increase)
2015 - 371 (48% increase)
2016 - 351 (5% decrease)
2017 - 332 (n/a, year isn't finished)

Length > 60, stars > 4:
2011 - 572
2012 - 664 (16% increase)
2013 - 592 (11% decrease)
2014 - 723 (31% increase)
2015 - 1154 (49% increase)
2016 - 1182 (2% increase)
2017 - 1110 (n/a, year isn't finished)

As you can see, the amount of short vs not short maps getting ranked grow at a similar rate. The only years where shorter maps grew faster than longer maps were 2012 and 2014. 2012 happened before ppv2 was even a thing, so we can ignore that. Of the 4 years since pp became a thing, short maps have only increased in number significantly by a larger percent than long maps during 2014. With that in mind, how can you argue that this is an issue stemming from the fact that modern maps are shorter? Modern maps clearly aren't generally shorter. 2014 was 3 (almost 4) years ago, if the problem was due to short pp maps, why has this only just become a major issue? Why have short maps only started impacting the game now? Those are both rhetorical question, there's no logical answer that agrees with your points.

Let me ask another question. What has changed very recently that has thrown the pp system into disarray? Touchscreens. Touchscreens only became a "common" peripheral in the last 2 years, and since then, with only ~2 years of practice, touchscreen players have achieved the highest rated play in the game. If short, aim intense maps were the issue, tablet/mouse players would have already attained a 900pp score on the same map, but they can't because they use a 1:1 input method.

[Taiga] wrote:

Ranking isn't something where places are capped at certain point to achieve them. There will be always top 100. Only amount of points to achieve it will change. What people call a touchscreen problem is not really at the top where I guess only one or two players can compete but in mid-ranking range where more people play it and can abuse actuall mapping to gain way more pp easier, where "easier" doesn't mean that every single one of them will actually achieve top100 that fast as others (ref. valid proof of each player progressing of its own natural speed).

Please read with understanding - I didn't said OTP are not competitive.
Before "big boom" for short maps with simple jump style patterns and non-existant or rare bursts, OTP were punished for not being efficient in all skillsets.
Right now, OTP are in good position to rank up without much problems.
So, competition should be made in correct rules - to achieve high rank before, you had to be efficient in all skillsets.
Right now you just need to have aim, nothing else.
You call that competitive ranking?
Sorry, I disagree.
The issue isn't at the top... YET. It will be eventually though. 800pp plays were proven trivial for the current top touchscreen player, as shown by him setting multiple 800+ pp scores in a row (on a single map). The reason there aren't as many top100 touchscreen players is because there are far less touchscreen players, plus touchscreen players have had less time to train with their peripherals. Touchscreen players are competing with people who have played osu! for 5+ years with their preferred input device, and they're getting higher pp scores already.

Let's assume you're objectively correct and that it shouldn't be possible to rank up by only being skilled in one area. What's your solution to the issue? Make pp fit around rewarding balanced maps?

Stream maps -> low pp.
Jump maps -> low pp.
Acc maps -> low pp.
Balanced maps -> full pp.

FC ascension to heaven doubletime? Nah, unbalanced score, 200pp for you. FC red like roses DT? Nah, unbalanced score, 200pp for you. FC santa san hdhr? Woah that map has streams and jumps and high od, 400pp for you. Clearly this isn't going to work. What's the other solution to the issue? Unrank and outlaw all maps that don't have 1/4 and are less than 60 seconds, even if the song doesn't contain 1/4 and is < 60 seconds? Ridiculous.

You're using short, aim intensive maps as a scapegoat. People in in the past COULD rank up using only 1 skillset. I was top200 using ONLY stream scores when tp was released. I'll say it one last time, the problem isn't aim, or recent maps. It's touchscreen.
posted
q
posted
Touchscreen is the original way to play std (Ouendan & EBA) and yet unfair wow I'm shocked
posted

jesse1412 wrote:

#1. Cookiezi - Top ranks don't consist of TV size maps (highest ranked player in the game doesn't do it, but it's apparently the problem). Doesn't rely on short maps.
#2. Rafis - 3 out of his top 20 scores are < 1 min 30 secs. 7 are longer than 4 minutes. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#3. Vaxei - Plays longer, VERY intense aim maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#4. filsdelama - Plays mostly long dt aim maps, with a large amount of dthdhr scores. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#5. firebat92 - Basically the same kind of player as rafis. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#6. hvick225 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#7. _RyuK - Arguably abuses short maps.
#8. Emilia - Plays extreme jump maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#9. Mathi - Variety player, does a bit of everything. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#10. Rohulk - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#11. Piggey - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#12. Spare - Plays a mix of dt and nomod. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#13. Bubbleman - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#14. Dustice - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#15. mcy3 - Hands down abuses short maps.
#16. idke - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#17. Happystick - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#18. Yaong - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#19. bro_gamer72 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#20. index - Doesn't rely on short maps.
Looking at the top 10 best performance:
# of map with ≤ 1 min drain time
# of map with ≥ 3 min drain time
# of map with DT

#1. Cookiezi - 2, 7, 5
#2. Rafis - 2, 2, 10
#3. Vaxei - 4, 2, 10
#4. filsdelama - 4, 2, 10
#5. firebat92 - 6, 0, 10
#6. hvick225 - 1, 2, 10
#7. _RyuK - 6, 1, 10
#8. Emilia - 8, 0, 9
#9. Mathi - 3, 3, 7
#10. Rohulk - 0, 9
#11. Piggey - 1, 3, 10
#12. Spare - 5, 3, 8
#13. Bubbleman - 6, 2, 10
#14. Dustice - 0, 6, 4
#15. mcy3 - 10, 0, 10
#16. idke - 0, 10
#17. Happystick - 1, 5, 5
#18. Yaong - 0, 10
#19. bro_gamer72 - 2, 4, 8
#20. _index - 1, 6, 7

Average: 31%, 39%, 67%
Average without Rohulk, Dustice, idke and Yaong: 39%, 26%, 87%
posted
Touchscreen is not a different mode for me, so this does not deserve a different score table by map, imho.
If complains are about how many pp this got, I think that a different way to create ranking boards is necessary. In this order, I supports MariahCarey's (aka, Voli's) suggestion.

regards!
posted

jesse1412 wrote:

I could keep going, but the trend is the same. Your imaginary problem doesn't exist. Stop making up COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Why do I have to spend my time checking all these players because you've made up an argument that's impossible to refute without wasting time checking? 80%? I'd guess closer to 10%, at which point, is it really abusing? If short maps were SO overrated then why in the world aren't top players relying on them?
yea after your responses I assume you dont really like me personally so you literally checking each thing I say.

What I meant there

hi-mei wrote:

80% of top 50 are DT tv-size maps abusers.
Is that 80% of players in top 50 has their pp earned mostly on short jumpy maps.

But yea, please dont reply on that, after all the shit you threw on me I honestly have 0 will to discuss with you anymore.

Go ahead and live in your delusional world where Performance Points arent broken and mapping meta is in a normal state.

But before I send you to blocklist, let me summarize the top scores on top 50 players (currently).

i'll include here only top 50 scores of top 50 players on TV size maps that has 2 and less min drain time (without DT), but was played with DT. Scores with drain time over 2:25s (My dearest) arent included here (like remote control, best friends full ver. etc).

1. Cookiezi
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (100.00%)
Chitose Sara - Merry Merry Go Round [Extra] +HD,DT (99.22%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (96.50%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (93.87%)
Hagumi Nishizawa - My Hero! Up to you! [My Hero!] +HD,DT (97.67%)
S3RL feat Mixie Moon - FriendZoned [Slayed's Extreme] +HD,DT (99.75%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (97.61%)
Horie Yui - Asymmetry [Flourite's Kiss] +HD,DT (99.62%)

8/50 = 16% (or 0.16 multiplier)

2. Rafis
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (98.43%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.50%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (99.41%)
*Namirin - Yasashisa no Riyuu [Happiness] +HD,DT (99.68%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.06%)
ayase rie - yuima-ru*world [Extra] +HD,DT (99.40%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (99.25%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.56%
Duca - Jewel Days [Illumination] +HD,DT (99.73%)
fhana - Kimi to Iu Tokuiten [singular you] [Melancholy] +HD,DT (99.56%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Taki] +HD,DT (99.86%)
Little Glee Monster - Dakara, Hitori ja Nai -TV Size- [Sotarks' Plus Ultra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.98%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (98.77%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (99.43%)
Tapimiru - Hakkensha wa Watashi (Anime Size) [Kencho's Grimoire] +HD,DT (99.66%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.44%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (98.83%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,HR,DT (97.99%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,DT (99.57%)
TrySail & TRUE - High Free Spirits vs. DREAM SOLISTER [Pentarks' Extra] +HD,DT (99.39%)
Suzuki Konomi - Redo [Extra] +HD,DT (99.24%)
Machico - fantastic dreamer [Blessing] +HD,DT (99.50%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS -TV Size- [Fycho's Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.15%)
CINDERELLA PROJECT - M@GIC* [M@gic] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.08%)

29/50 = 58% (or 0.58)

3. Vaxei
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
HO-KAGO TEA TIME - Kira Kira Days [Shiawase!!] +HD,DT (98.03%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.12%)
Aqours - Aozora Jumping Heart [hvick225's Extra] +HD,DT (98.73%)
Kanon Wakeshima - Tsukinami [Fragile] +HD,DT (98.71%)
Hiromi Sato - Jiyuu no Hane [A Feather] +HD,DT (99.68%
TRUE - Soundscape [StarR's Euphonious] +HD,DT (97.85%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.35%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.04%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [StarR's Extra] +HD,DT (97.74%)
Tia - The Glory Days [Glory] +HD,DT (99.02%)
*namirin - Koi no Hime Hime Pettanko [Taeyang's Ultra Princess] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (97.80%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (97.65%)
supercell - My Dearest (TV Edit) [Guilt] +HD,HR,DT (96.23%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (97.00%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.36%)
Izumi Akazawa (CV. Madoka Yonezawa) - Responsibility Response [Slayed's Answer] +HD,DT (98.08%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (97.57%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (97.64%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.34%)
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (97.52%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (97.17%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (97.49%)
Reol - MONSTER [DARKNESS] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Drop - Granat [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.54%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Slayed's Extra] +HD,DT (99.36%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (98.28%)
FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.42%)
Royal Blood - Loose Change [$] +HD,DT (98.46%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Extra] +HD,DT (96.60%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Colorful] +HD,DT (97.26%)
3 Nen E Gumi Utatan (Nagisa & Kayano & Karuma & Isogai & Maehara) - Bye Bye YESTERDAY [Taeyang's Good Good Time] +HD,DT (99.55%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.55%)

35/50 = 70% (0.7)

Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse



Im lazy to copy past and gonna just post the result multiplier from now on:

4. filsdelama
28/50 = 56% (0.56)

5. firebat92

32/50 = 64% (0.64)

6. osu player84

44/50 = 88% (0.88)

7. hvick225

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

8. RyuK

36/50 = 72% (0.72)

9. Emilia

40/50 = 80% (0.8)

Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse

10. Mathi

22/50 = 44% (0.44)

11. Rohulk

1/50 = 2% (0.02)

12. Piggey

32/50 = 64% (0.64)

13. Spare

25/50 = 50% (0.5) I honestly lost my count here so it might be a bit different, +/- 1/2

14. Bubbleman

19/50 = 38% (0.38)

15. Dustice

7/50 = 14% (0.14)

16. mcy3

45/50 = 90% (0.9)

17. DanyL

32/50 = 62% (0.62)

18. idke

0/50 = 0% (0x)

Hands down, much respect to idke.

19. Happystick

9/50 = 18% (0.18)

20. Yaong

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

21. bro_gamer72

25/50 = 50% (0.5)

22. _index

20/50 = 40% (0.4)

23. Totoki

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

24. kablaze

0/50 = 0% (0)

Hands down, wp.

25. talala

26/50 = 62% (0.62)

26. WWW

1/50 = 2% (0.02)

27. Aireu

19/50 = 38% (0.38)

28. Adamqs

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

29. Toy

13/50 = 26% (0.26)

tho we all know he is not about DT at all

30. Monko2k

24/50 = 48% (0.48)

31. CXu

8/50 = 16% (0.16)

32. Arnold24x24

36/50 = 72% (0.72)

33. Wilchq

0/50 = 0% (0)

much respect

34. Musty

7/50 = 14% (0.14)

35. uyghti

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

36. Sanze

23/50 = 56% (0.56)

37. Mizuru

28/50 = 66% (0.66)

38. freedomdiver

Ok this one doesnt count, gonna get #51 here instead.

39. Astar

30/50 = 60% (0.6)

40. Resia

43/50 = 86% (0.86)

41. Recia

14/50 = 28% (0.28)

42. Karthy

16/50 = 32% (0.32)

43. MrBoom

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

44. Bango

38/50 = 76% (0.76)

45. Zirba

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

46. fieryrage

31/50 = 62% (0.62)

47. MouseEasy

39/50 = 78% (0.78)

48. obtio

45/50 = 90% (0.9) holy shit

49. Dunois

17/50 = 34% (0.34)

50. Mlaw22

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

51. Dunii

37/50 = 74% (0.74)


The data got obtained by myself manually, so I might be mistaken in few places by +/- 0.1-0.2 value. I didnt take freedomdiver by obvious reasons, instead I counted #51 - Dunii

So the current average of short DT jumpy map per player's top 50 score in current top 50 players is:

combined multiplier (22.76) / amount of players (50) = 0.4552
or 45,52% of current PP earnings of top 50 players are short jumpy DT maps with 2 and less mins of draintime without DT.

Oh, if we remove these who dont play short DT maps at all

- idke (0)
- Kablaze (0)
- Wilchq (0)
- Rohulk (1 top DT score)
- Yaong (2)
- WWW (2)
- Adamqs (2)
- MrBooM (2)
- Mlaw22 (2)

We gonna get the following: 0.5392 which is 0.54% of PP of top ranked players who plays fasts maps is earned on short jumpy DT maps.


Dont forget, that there are also Nomod / HDHR mods are still available, that means, that, lets say, we got 3 type of players right now

- nomod
- hr (hdhr)
- dt (hddt)

The pure HD and FL players are rare for now, so lets stick with these 3.

So in perfect case scenario, the distribution should be like 33/33/34

instead, we got something around 50% of PP literally earned from abusing one mod on specific kind of maps.

Oh yea, I think I said that there are 80% people who abuses it in top 50 rank?

lets see.. In my opinion, the abuse of DT is when you surpasing that 33% from above, or to be completely fair lets take 40%.

so, from the data earned above, there are 30 players that surpassed these values, which is 60%.

Okay, my bad!

I wonder what would happen if I counted Remote control, Caffeine Driver and other 2:30+ min DT sutff. I truly believe we would get these 80% easily.


However, coming back to our convo, I honestly cant take you seriously anymore, especially after you said

And I'll say it again. If you have a 20 star 20 second map and someone fc's it, you'd have to be braindead to argue that it should be worth less than 900pp; thus 20 second maps CAN give 900pp.
Which is completely stupid, since if you wanna FC 20 sec 20 star map, all you will do is memorizing the muscle movement, which is basically turning the game into some physical memorization challenge, rather than video-game.

Which actually happened in our case, he didnt play the game properly, he abused the flaw of the map with third party device. In this case we should blame both - the map and the TS.
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