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[Guideline] Avoid using storyboarded hitsounds

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Topic Starter
Shiirn
Let's see what you guys can come up with. I'm 100%, totally AGAINST this, as hitsounds are an imperative part of how maps work and provide reinforcement to the player as he or she plays.

Having a storyboarded hitsound removes the inherent interactivity and makes things horribly confusing. Other storyboarded sounds are (within reason) okay since they don't interrupt the flow of a player's actions.


Do note, that as a replacement for storyboarding hitsounds, you can do something similar to what i did for Noisestorm - Ignite (the notes in question are 01:25:980 (2) - and 01:28:552 (4) - , note how experimentation was done on (2)) and use clever slidertrack custom hitsounds to replace where people would normally storyboard.

Basically, most "storyboarded hitsounds" are there to consistently keep a hitsound pattern going (claps on downbeats, especially common) however the mapper decides that a slider going over the spot where there would be a clap is his best decision. Since this mapper also uses tick rate 1 (see where 2 can come in handy? val0108's got the right idea, haha), he would normally throw down his clap there with a storyboarded hit - but you can use a custom sliderslide during that quick bit to simulate a tick being there even if there's not - and as an added bonus, it even offers interactivity since if the player misses that point in time, the clap will not occur!


As such,

Avoid using storyboarded hitsounds. They confuse the player by providing the feedback normally obtained by playing the map without any actual action on the player's part. In cases where you believe a hitsound must go where there is no note, you should re-evaluate how you are mapping - as if there is supposed to be a hitsound there, why is there no opportunity for you to put one there?

thoughts?
Luna
Yes, as a guideline I support this.
If a hitsound is needed but no object is placed, it can probably be mapped better.

As a strict rule I would be against this because there are certain cases (albeit very rare) where SB Hitsounds work perfectly.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
There are exceptions to every rule, and they can be handled on a case-by-case basis.
ztrot
personally I see no need to ever to SB a hitsound and if you need to you are doing something wrong.
Ekaru

ztrot wrote:

personally I see no need to ever to SB a hitsound and if you need to you are doing something wrong.
This.

It feels awful. "Why is there a clap when I didn't press anything?" It lacks a good feel.

And no, you will not die if you break up your clap pattern for a measure. If anything it's a good thing since it'll bring in some hitsound variety. :P
ziin

ztrot wrote:

personally I see no need to ever to SB a hitsound and if you need to you are doing something wrong.
I just want to reiterate there is an enormous difference between a hitsound and a sound.
kanpakyin
Probably just use the storyboarded hitsounds if really necessary?I mean,the mapper should have a extremely good reason if mapper really want to use it.
mm201
Storyboarded hitsounds are logically equivalent to fake hitobjects and should be treated as such.
HakuNoKaemi
maybe this can be a rule for ranked maps, and not for approved( you can use in approved maps )
Just make more readable the fact you can Storyboard sounds that aren't included in the hitsounds sets, as misinterpretation of rules can kill many good maps.
Sakura
I'm leaning towards adding this as a rule instead, reason being that there's a difference between a sound and a hitsound, if storyboarded sounds are placed on top of hitobjects with a rythm, they should be treated as the equivalent to fake hitsounds, sounds on the other hand complement a storyboard and dont destroy the map (i.e: A car braking sound because there's a car braking in the storyboard).
ziin
Storyboarded hitsounds are confusing, but if they are used they must be consistent and fit the song. If a sound is never used as a hitsound in the map, it is of course no longer a hitsound, but a simple sound.

Storyboarded hitsounds are just and easier way to modify the song without actually re-encoding it, or provide changes in difficulties.

As long as it fits well, I do not have a problem with it, but I have never seen them done well, which is why I think a guideline is perfect. If you want to storyboard in a drum beat (preferably using different sounds not in the hitsounds) that is perfectly fine, especially if it fits. But don't mix and match hitsounds with storyboarded sounds.

I feel the same way about overmapping if that helps.
Sakura
How is missing a note and hearing a hitsound, good? better yet, how is hearing a hitsound 10 ms later/after your click good?
ziin
short of finding a song with audio tracks for each part, there's no way to remove hitsounds within the song itself. Except they're not hitsounds then, they're part of the song. Using storyboarded sounds is like adding to the song. Technically you can't storyboard hitsounds, because at hitsound must be hit to create the sound.

If you can't tell the difference between a storyboarded sound and the actual mp3, it's not really a hitsound. Boozehound is the best I've seen so far, though it's obviously not perfect (there's a lot of stupid crap in it)
Sakura
you do have a point, but the problem is that they wont stop being hitsounds, a sb sound is something that accompanies what the storyboard is showing you, your hitsounds on your notes accompany the music.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
I originally stated this as an intention to avoid mappers explicitly using hitsounds located in their maps (osuplayer111 is a common culprit) except storyboaded, especally during notes (noted above, osuplayer111 is very fond of having his 2nd/4th beat snares storyboarded if his pattern happened to use a slider with no tick over that location, which I consider a horrible, horribly idea).
LKs
In the eyes of mine,SB hitousnds is always useful and reasonable when you use it correctly.

And actually, it's no need to use a SB hitsound/sound when missing a clap due to a long slider. There are several measures that can solve it.
  1. as what Shiirn has said, you can use XXX-sliderxxxxx to get same effect
  2. you can also rename your clap file as XXX-sliderslideX and get the same effect from switching between XC1 and XC2(by inherited sections)
    I used a lot on this map, very easy and time-saving.
    There won't have a silence problem only if you keep your slidertick audioable.
Back to the topic, SB hitsounds is actually used to solve other situations:

You Alone

02:16:628 (1,2) - I used SB clap between 1&2 to fill the blank that because of my rhythm design.

In this map, SB hitsounds is used rational and improves the map a lot and at the same time, it isn't a obstacle while playing.

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And technically, the effect of SB hitsounds can't be prohibited, if SB hitsounds is no longer permitted, I can add the hitsounds what I need directly into the song by the Cubase software.

So it's meaningless and useless to discuss this. If there is a map that has SB hitsounds, whether it should be exist or not is based on the actual effect. If it is horrible, just delete it and if it is good, blablablablah

:3
RandomJibberish
Any kind of unexpected hitsound is a bad idea - The use of SB hitsounds, ticksounds and slide sounds to match up with clap patterns or whatever is completely illogical. The purpose of hitsounds is to convey timing information to the player - if they are EVER played outside the context of hitting a note, they become essentially useless.

In addition, you should be both hitsounding and mapping to the music - if you think a song really needs a clap on a certain tick, an object should probably be there. Mindlessly putting claps on every offbeat is a very uncreative and boring to play way of hitsounding, and I urge mappers to at least accept a break in that monotony once in a while.

I 100% support the banning all kinds of unexpected hitsound, but at the very least Storyboarded hitsounds should not be allowed since they have no connection to any hitobject.

P.S. Here, by "hitsound" I mean "a sound that is also used in the map as an actual hitsound", which includes default hitsounds and any custom claps etc. There seems to be some confusion about this and it should probably be clarified in the rule :<
LKs

RandomJibberish wrote:

P.S. Here, by "hitsound" I mean "a sound that is also used in the map as an actual hitsound", which includes default hitsounds and any custom claps etc. There seems to be some confusion about this and it should probably be clarified in the rule :<
You explained the definition of hitsounds pretty clear, I just learnt from your saying :3

But I against all your other opinions. Hitsounds, ticksounds or slidesounds, whatever, in chinese we directly translate them to sound effect(音效).

Hitsounds(sound effect) is an art, it contains so much things. SB hitsounds(sound effect) is just a small part of the art.

You can find that less than 1% of mappers use SB hitsounds(sound effect), but 90% of those maps have SB hitsounds(sound effect) is wonderful:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5875
No one can say this map is awful due to it's SB hitsounds

You Alone
Also, no one blame me due to the use of SB clap that bothers them while playing

What's more, No evidence shows sounds not related to the action of hit will influence playing a map.
We don't even be afriad of "the big black", why we're afraid of a SB hitsounds?????????

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RandomJibberish wrote:

Any kind of unexpected hitsound is a bad idea

you won't know when and where a note will appear before there is a approach circle, so We can say hitobject is unexpected

- The use of SB hitsounds, ticksounds and slide sounds to match up with clap patterns or whatever is completely illogical. The purpose of hitsounds is to convey timing information to the player - if they are EVER played outside the context of hitting a note, they become essentially useless.

nop, hitsounds is not only a info conveyer, but also a supplement of the song, the second time creation of the song, which contains the imagination, creative ability and Music theory knowledge of mappers.
RandomJibberish
Pretty much all the whistle sounds in Boozehound are concurrent with hitobjects, so I don't see why it wasn't done with custom samples. Next build we'll have even more samples to work with, so there's not a lot of reason to use SB sounds in that way.

The hitnormals during spinners are kinda pointless, but not game breaking I suppose. Removing them really wouldn't have had that much of a detrimental effect.

Other than that, the custom sounds don't relate to standard hitsounds and are fair game. I'd still have recommended that they were turned into hit samples where possible though, since it would have been cool :P

The SB sounds in You Alone are an example of unthinkingly following a hitsound pattern completely rigidly instead of changing your hitsounding to match what you're mapping to. The SB'd clap sounds occur when the mapping is following a musical thought that doesn't include the "clap" in the music, so it doesn't feel odd if you remove it - it's just unnecessarily disorientating for the clap to be there.

As much as I like the idea of maps being "art", I think part of the beauty of a really great map is its ability to be original and memorable while staying within the limitations of a game. There comes a point where a standard and a consistency across all maps matters more than your artistic vision.
LKs
sigh, can not provide more telling maps, I didn't have a list of them :<

You can see there is a quite big style difference between mappers, Japanese sect, LarXX/ZtrXX/JerXX sect, tsuXX/kiddXXsect, NattXX/TKXX sect, tieXX/La XX sect and so on. I personally think the eastern has more and better hitsounds masters, Sandpig, dksslqj, MoonFragrance, Al-azif, 100pa- blablablah, none of them have ever said SB hitsounds is pointless, anyway.

In my opinion, SB hitsounds is just like keeping BG or not, is based on personal like. It's just a trivial element (Although I regard it as precious thing.)

Maybe I barely use SB hitsounds(1~2 in 50 maps), but I don't wanna see it gets banned in front of me. Just like you won't hope to see custom skins gets banned because of some pretty bad templates ╮(╯_╰)╭

anyway, hope you and the team can take more into account.

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Edit: Here I have a conclusion:

All things(slidertick rate, SB, Slider velocity, overlap) can be allowed while they give convenience to players on playing
If they don't, then they are banned



That's all from me, let's see how will this going
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