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[Guideline] Avoid using storyboarded hitsounds

posted
Total Posts
32
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Let's see what you guys can come up with. I'm 100%, totally AGAINST this, as hitsounds are an imperative part of how maps work and provide reinforcement to the player as he or she plays.

Having a storyboarded hitsound removes the inherent interactivity and makes things horribly confusing. Other storyboarded sounds are (within reason) okay since they don't interrupt the flow of a player's actions.


Do note, that as a replacement for storyboarding hitsounds, you can do something similar to what i did for Noisestorm - Ignite (the notes in question are 01:25:980 (2) - and 01:28:552 (4) - , note how experimentation was done on (2)) and use clever slidertrack custom hitsounds to replace where people would normally storyboard.

Basically, most "storyboarded hitsounds" are there to consistently keep a hitsound pattern going (claps on downbeats, especially common) however the mapper decides that a slider going over the spot where there would be a clap is his best decision. Since this mapper also uses tick rate 1 (see where 2 can come in handy? val0108's got the right idea, haha), he would normally throw down his clap there with a storyboarded hit - but you can use a custom sliderslide during that quick bit to simulate a tick being there even if there's not - and as an added bonus, it even offers interactivity since if the player misses that point in time, the clap will not occur!


As such,

Avoid using storyboarded hitsounds. They confuse the player by providing the feedback normally obtained by playing the map without any actual action on the player's part. In cases where you believe a hitsound must go where there is no note, you should re-evaluate how you are mapping - as if there is supposed to be a hitsound there, why is there no opportunity for you to put one there?

thoughts?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Yes, as a guideline I support this.
If a hitsound is needed but no object is placed, it can probably be mapped better.

As a strict rule I would be against this because there are certain cases (albeit very rare) where SB Hitsounds work perfectly.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
There are exceptions to every rule, and they can be handled on a case-by-case basis.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
personally I see no need to ever to SB a hitsound and if you need to you are doing something wrong.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

ztrot wrote:

personally I see no need to ever to SB a hitsound and if you need to you are doing something wrong.
This.

It feels awful. "Why is there a clap when I didn't press anything?" It lacks a good feel.

And no, you will not die if you break up your clap pattern for a measure. If anything it's a good thing since it'll bring in some hitsound variety. :P
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

ztrot wrote:

personally I see no need to ever to SB a hitsound and if you need to you are doing something wrong.
I just want to reiterate there is an enormous difference between a hitsound and a sound.
kanpakyin
Global Moderator
4,233 posts
Joined June 2010
kanpakyin
Probably just use the storyboarded hitsounds if really necessary?I mean,the mapper should have a extremely good reason if mapper really want to use it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Storyboarded hitsounds are logically equivalent to fake hitobjects and should be treated as such.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
maybe this can be a rule for ranked maps, and not for approved( you can use in approved maps )
Just make more readable the fact you can Storyboard sounds that aren't included in the hitsounds sets, as misinterpretation of rules can kill many good maps.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I'm leaning towards adding this as a rule instead, reason being that there's a difference between a sound and a hitsound, if storyboarded sounds are placed on top of hitobjects with a rythm, they should be treated as the equivalent to fake hitsounds, sounds on the other hand complement a storyboard and dont destroy the map (i.e: A car braking sound because there's a car braking in the storyboard).
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Storyboarded hitsounds are confusing, but if they are used they must be consistent and fit the song. If a sound is never used as a hitsound in the map, it is of course no longer a hitsound, but a simple sound.

Storyboarded hitsounds are just and easier way to modify the song without actually re-encoding it, or provide changes in difficulties.

As long as it fits well, I do not have a problem with it, but I have never seen them done well, which is why I think a guideline is perfect. If you want to storyboard in a drum beat (preferably using different sounds not in the hitsounds) that is perfectly fine, especially if it fits. But don't mix and match hitsounds with storyboarded sounds.

I feel the same way about overmapping if that helps.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
How is missing a note and hearing a hitsound, good? better yet, how is hearing a hitsound 10 ms later/after your click good?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
short of finding a song with audio tracks for each part, there's no way to remove hitsounds within the song itself. Except they're not hitsounds then, they're part of the song. Using storyboarded sounds is like adding to the song. Technically you can't storyboard hitsounds, because at hitsound must be hit to create the sound.

If you can't tell the difference between a storyboarded sound and the actual mp3, it's not really a hitsound. Boozehound is the best I've seen so far, though it's obviously not perfect (there's a lot of stupid crap in it)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
you do have a point, but the problem is that they wont stop being hitsounds, a sb sound is something that accompanies what the storyboard is showing you, your hitsounds on your notes accompany the music.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
I originally stated this as an intention to avoid mappers explicitly using hitsounds located in their maps (osuplayer111 is a common culprit) except storyboaded, especally during notes (noted above, osuplayer111 is very fond of having his 2nd/4th beat snares storyboarded if his pattern happened to use a slider with no tick over that location, which I consider a horrible, horribly idea).
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs
In the eyes of mine,SB hitousnds is always useful and reasonable when you use it correctly.

And actually, it's no need to use a SB hitsound/sound when missing a clap due to a long slider. There are several measures that can solve it.
  1. as what Shiirn has said, you can use XXX-sliderxxxxx to get same effect
  2. you can also rename your clap file as XXX-sliderslideX and get the same effect from switching between XC1 and XC2（by inherited sections）
    I used a lot on this map, very easy and time-saving.
    There won't have a silence problem only if you keep your slidertick audioable.
Back to the topic, SB hitsounds is actually used to solve other situations:

You Alone

02:16:628 (1,2) - I used SB clap between 1&2 to fill the blank that because of my rhythm design.

In this map, SB hitsounds is used rational and improves the map a lot and at the same time, it isn't a obstacle while playing.

-------------------------

And technically, the effect of SB hitsounds can't be prohibited, if SB hitsounds is no longer permitted, I can add the hitsounds what I need directly into the song by the Cubase software.

So it's meaningless and useless to discuss this. If there is a map that has SB hitsounds, whether it should be exist or not is based on the actual effect. If it is horrible, just delete it and if it is good, blablablablah

:3
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Any kind of unexpected hitsound is a bad idea - The use of SB hitsounds, ticksounds and slide sounds to match up with clap patterns or whatever is completely illogical. The purpose of hitsounds is to convey timing information to the player - if they are EVER played outside the context of hitting a note, they become essentially useless.

In addition, you should be both hitsounding and mapping to the music - if you think a song really needs a clap on a certain tick, an object should probably be there. Mindlessly putting claps on every offbeat is a very uncreative and boring to play way of hitsounding, and I urge mappers to at least accept a break in that monotony once in a while.

I 100% support the banning all kinds of unexpected hitsound, but at the very least Storyboarded hitsounds should not be allowed since they have no connection to any hitobject.

P.S. Here, by "hitsound" I mean "a sound that is also used in the map as an actual hitsound", which includes default hitsounds and any custom claps etc. There seems to be some confusion about this and it should probably be clarified in the rule :<
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs

RandomJibberish wrote:

P.S. Here, by "hitsound" I mean "a sound that is also used in the map as an actual hitsound", which includes default hitsounds and any custom claps etc. There seems to be some confusion about this and it should probably be clarified in the rule :<
You explained the definition of hitsounds pretty clear, I just learnt from your saying :3

But I against all your other opinions. Hitsounds, ticksounds or slidesounds, whatever, in chinese we directly translate them to sound effect(音效).

Hitsounds(sound effect) is an art, it contains so much things. SB hitsounds(sound effect) is just a small part of the art.

You can find that less than 1% of mappers use SB hitsounds(sound effect), but 90% of those maps have SB hitsounds(sound effect) is wonderful:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5875
No one can say this map is awful due to it's SB hitsounds

You Alone
Also, no one blame me due to the use of SB clap that bothers them while playing

What's more, No evidence shows sounds not related to the action of hit will influence playing a map.
We don't even be afriad of "the big black", why we're afraid of a SB hitsounds?????????

----------------------

RandomJibberish wrote:

Any kind of unexpected hitsound is a bad idea

you won't know when and where a note will appear before there is a approach circle, so We can say hitobject is unexpected

- The use of SB hitsounds, ticksounds and slide sounds to match up with clap patterns or whatever is completely illogical. The purpose of hitsounds is to convey timing information to the player - if they are EVER played outside the context of hitting a note, they become essentially useless.

nop, hitsounds is not only a info conveyer, but also a supplement of the song, the second time creation of the song, which contains the imagination, creative ability and Music theory knowledge of mappers.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Pretty much all the whistle sounds in Boozehound are concurrent with hitobjects, so I don't see why it wasn't done with custom samples. Next build we'll have even more samples to work with, so there's not a lot of reason to use SB sounds in that way.

The hitnormals during spinners are kinda pointless, but not game breaking I suppose. Removing them really wouldn't have had that much of a detrimental effect.

Other than that, the custom sounds don't relate to standard hitsounds and are fair game. I'd still have recommended that they were turned into hit samples where possible though, since it would have been cool :P

The SB sounds in You Alone are an example of unthinkingly following a hitsound pattern completely rigidly instead of changing your hitsounding to match what you're mapping to. The SB'd clap sounds occur when the mapping is following a musical thought that doesn't include the "clap" in the music, so it doesn't feel odd if you remove it - it's just unnecessarily disorientating for the clap to be there.

As much as I like the idea of maps being "art", I think part of the beauty of a really great map is its ability to be original and memorable while staying within the limitations of a game. There comes a point where a standard and a consistency across all maps matters more than your artistic vision.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs
sigh, can not provide more telling maps, I didn't have a list of them :<

You can see there is a quite big style difference between mappers, Japanese sect, LarXX/ZtrXX/JerXX sect, tsuXX/kiddXXsect, NattXX/TKXX sect, tieXX/La XX sect and so on. I personally think the eastern has more and better hitsounds masters, Sandpig, dksslqj, MoonFragrance, Al-azif, 100pa- blablablah, none of them have ever said SB hitsounds is pointless, anyway.

In my opinion, SB hitsounds is just like keeping BG or not, is based on personal like. It's just a trivial element (Although I regard it as precious thing.)

Maybe I barely use SB hitsounds(1~2 in 50 maps), but I don't wanna see it gets banned in front of me. Just like you won't hope to see custom skins gets banned because of some pretty bad templates ╮(╯_╰)╭

anyway, hope you and the team can take more into account.

--------------------------------

Edit: Here I have a conclusion:

All things(slidertick rate, SB, Slider velocity, overlap) can be allowed while they give convenience to players on playing
If they don't, then they are banned



That's all from me, let's see how will this going
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

LKs wrote:

You Alone

02:16:628 (1,2) - I used SB clap between 1&2 to fill the blank that because of my rhythm design.
This is bad form and shouldn't have been ranked. You really should have put in a separate snare hit for the different section and mapped the clap pattern with those sounds, not hitsounds. Yes, I'm telling you to use MORE storyboarded sounds.

LKs wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5875
No one can say this map is awful due to it's SB hitsounds
this map is awful due to its SB hitsounds. It is a worse map for it. With the hitsounds put in their proper place it would have been much better.

LKs wrote:

nop, hitsounds is not only a info conveyer, but also a supplement of the song, the second time creation of the song, which contains the imagination, creative ability and Music theory knowledge of mappers.
You are correct. Except that people don't understand music, they just put down what they think is fun. It's usually wrong. Which is the entire reason for a guideline: for things that are usually wrong.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs

ziin wrote:

LKs wrote:

You Alone

02:16:628 (1,2) - I used SB clap between 1&2 to fill the blank that because of my rhythm design.
This is bad form and shouldn't have been ranked. You really should have put in a separate snare hit for the different section and mapped the clap pattern with those sounds, not hitsounds. Yes, I'm telling you to use MORE storyboarded sounds.

LKs wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5875
No one can say this map is awful due to it's SB hitsounds
this map is awful due to its SB hitsounds. It is a worse map for it. With the hitsounds put in their proper place it would have been much better.

I don't need your direction and you're not able to judge other good mappers ruthlessly.
We don't need empty talk, but actual, real great maps. I DLed all your maps but all of them are just weak and poor (comparing to great maps)
If you do have time to criticize my GD and Al's map, just go map the same songs, I don't think you're in Al-azif‘s class as a mapper.

LKs wrote:

nop, hitsounds is not only a info conveyer, but also a supplement of the song, the second time creation of the song, which contains the imagination, creative ability and Music theory knowledge of mappers.
You are correct. Except that people don't understand music, they just put down what they think is fun. It's usually wrong. Which is the entire reason for a guideline: for things that are usually wrong.

yep, this is the reality
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Boozehound shouldn't have used hitsounds in the storyboard, and stuck them on as actual hitsounds. You alone should have taken all the claps out of that section and put them in the storyboard. If you disagree in some way, tell me why.

This guideline would have prevented the two, and would have made it much more consistent. The net result of an SS run is also virtually identical, which is why few people have any problems with it.

My mapping class has nothing to do with this, even though I have a hard time believing anyone thinks my osuka maps are weak and poor.

LKs wrote:

We don't need empty talk, but actual, real great maps
Great maps =/= ranked maps. You are free to make as many great maps as you want. You should never strive for ranking, just making the best map you can. If you use something that the oligarchy deems unrankable, then just let it get graved.

This is also why I want an "approval" category which does not fall under the same restrictions as ranking. I have no problem with approval of fun maps, regardless of how many rules or guidelines they break, so long as they are fun to play, and likely great.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

ziin wrote:

Boozehound shouldn't have used hitsounds in the storyboard, and stuck them on as actual hitsounds.
So you're saying Al should have fit 50 samples into soft, normal, custom 1/2 sample sets? I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to do that. Al kind of altered the whole song itself, it was flawless, fun, exciting and consistent.

When SB sounds fit, they add a lot to the song/map, but at the same time, when they don't fit they can pretty much ruin a whole map single handedly.

In the end, trying to avoid SB hitsound is probably the best thing, but if it needs to be there to keep a hitsound pattern consistent and sounds good, they should be allowed to have it.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
I didn't want to post in this forum anymore, but i'm popping in just to say something that should be obvious but it seems it is not.
When Boozehound was mapped, there was no custom set 2 available for mapping.
I don't remember correctly, but maybe there wasn't even the way to switch between standard and custom hitsounds (that means osu would play only custom sounds and not allow you to use default ones as well).
So now tell me how to fit all that stuff Al used into only one custom set.
The result was amazing, the playability was great, so why would you even complain?

With that, I leave again before i start replying to all these pointless discussion again.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

That is, Ziin, you always standing on 2012, using your "new" brain to talk about old things, just like a modern person criticizes those stupid ancient people even don't have a electric guitar so their music is shit.

However, their ancient music is actually wonderful and great. Thousands of osu standard players like and praise Boozehound. People get satisfaction and enjoy playing the map. Without his map and his exploration, osu! even won't be this completed today.
Conversely, you have said a lot on this thread, and your saying doesn't seem have practical use.

------------------

Ziin wrote:

Boozehound shouldn't have used hitsounds in the storyboard, and stuck them on as actual hitsounds. You alone should have taken all the claps out of that section and put them in the storyboard. If you disagree in some way, tell me why.
Never say what should be who should do, you're not them, just do what you should do.
People do something under many different circumstances, why would you like compeling them absolutely accord your thought?
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Look, of course, Boozehound couldn't have used that many custom samples when it was mapped, but these rules apply to maps today. With custom 2, drum samples and the ability to change the hitnormal sample independently of the addition samples in test build, we have 24 distinct samples to play with. If you mapped Boozehound today, I'm sure actual hitsounds could have been used in most places.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
you had up to 16 with the old way you just had to use lots green lines :P
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

LKs wrote:

Ziin wrote:

If you disagree in some way, tell me why.
Never say what should be who should do, you're not them, just do what you should do.
People do something under many different circumstances, why would you like compelling them absolutely according to your thought?
Then what is the point of modding?

LKs wrote:

That is, Ziin, you always standing on 2012, using your "new" brain to talk about old things, just like a modern person criticizes those stupid ancient people even don't have a electric guitar so their music is shit.

However, their ancient music is actually wonderful and great. Thousands of osu standard players like and praise Boozehound. People get satisfaction and enjoy playing the map. Without his map and his exploration, osu! even won't be this completed today.
Conversely, you have said a lot on this thread, and your saying doesn't seem have practical use.
Let's learn from the mistakes of our past, okay?

Gabi wrote:

So you're saying Al should have fit 50 samples into soft, normal, custom 1/2 sample sets? I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to do that. Al kind of altered the whole song itself, it was flawless, fun, exciting and consistent.
I'm saying Al shouldn't have put a whistle in the storyboard. He should have made 00:38:192 (1) - for example a whistle. Try it for yourself. It's a damn whistle. Why did he put a whistle in the storyboard instead of putting the whistle on hitsound? Hitwhistle.wav and hitclap2.wav are the same file, so it's clear he wasted it. He never even touched the soft sampleset.

Why must we settle for mediocrity when there are clear paths for improvement? Because the map is bubbled? Yeah, that must be it.
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
I agree with ziin here. I think this is a good guideline, the past is the past what matters now is the future.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Good as a guideline, prevented highly from modders if used in a nosense manner. I would still say this is one of the actually good guidelines.
Not thinking of it as a rule, as being a guideline say basically " you should do this if you got your reason".
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
There seems to be a lot of flame being thrown around here and not a lot of actual discussion.
I'm going to lock this for a cool-off period of a fewish days so we can hopefully get back on topic.
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