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[Rule] All maps must be sightreadable on the first attempt

posted
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19
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn
All maps must be sightreadable on the first attempt. Thus, there should not be any hidden or otherwise ambiguous patterns of hitobjects. One common mistake is having a hitcircle with a slider under it (but the slider ends where the hitcircle is). This type of pattern is very hard to read; especially so when snaking sliders are disabled. Using new combos to differentiate hitobjects will avoid issues like this.
As others, even some in the MAT/BAT, have pointed out, this is 100% subjective. People have different skills in sightreading maps, so there's no way this can be effective as a rule :?

I suggest to remove this outright.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
nothing to add really. 100% subjective thing.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
this was already pretty much thrown out, are you just farming posts here?
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn
Their thread didn't get any posts for over 3 months, and no change was ever made. It's better to make another thread than to let the whole point be forgotten.
yongtw123
1,028 posts
Joined April 2009
yongtw123
100% subjective.

It all boils down to whether the MAT/BAT is skilled enough as a player.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Certain things are objectively not sight readable - hidden repeats, entirely hidden beats, unclear slider paths - and these should be specifically ruled out in other rules as they largely already are.

I do, however, agree with having this "catch all" rule underneath that stops mappers from searching for loopholes and to make sure it's understood that maps are meant to be sight readable on first attempt. If a MAT or BAT doubts readability they can ask more skilled players and come to a consensus.
aston_old
aston_old
I'm for having hard to read maps, but I'm against removing this rule.

Fun maps can be made from unreadable-
One example is http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65951. 5th slider on the map is somewhat readable, but there's a note right under that slider, which was under a slider, and come in succession that you cannot see without a transparent hit skin.

Most insanes are unreadable, so this rule should apply more to easy/normals, and a little bit to hard difficulties.
And..
One common mistake is having a hitcircle with a slider under it (but the slider ends where the hitcircle is). This type of pattern is very hard to read; especially so when snaking sliders are disabled.
has been broken so much, especially with Forza's (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/56347) Another difficulty; 2:05~2:07, even combining it with speed.

Although I'm for removing this, I don't believe it should be; people will map wildly if done so and it'll ruin most insane difficulties and make them completely stupidly mapped.
Lunah_old
Lunah_old
as they said this is subjective, I can understand an hidden slider as you can't, so, this should be removed or just moved to guidelines because It can't be a rules, it's too general as rule
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
I would rather we had contention over this point before a map was ranked rather than players complaining about a map being unreadable after it is ranked, where considerably more needs to be done to amend it.

As subjective as this rule is, it is necessary. As RJ pointed out earlier, issues with this rule will simply be delegated to a consensus of experienced players and we will move forward from there.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
pieguyn
One example is http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65951. 5th slider on the map is somewhat readable, but there's a note right under that slider, which was under a slider, and come in succession that you cannot see without a transparent hit skin.
I read it just fine...

Also, I find notes hidden under sliders to be readable a lot of the time as well >.<

And
One common mistake is having a hitcircle with a slider under it (but the slider ends where the hitcircle is). This type of pattern is very hard to read; especially so when snaking sliders are disabled.
I find this readable a lot of the time as well. o.o

Asking experienced players seems like a good solution, but I'm worried that some staff might go "this is unreadable" and still say that regardless of how many experienced players the mapper asks ><//
Lunah_old
Lunah_old

Ephemeral wrote:

I would rather we had contention over this point before a map was ranked rather than players complaining about a map being unreadable after it is ranked, where considerably more needs to be done to amend it.

As subjective as this rule is, it is necessary. As RJ pointed out earlier, issues with this rule will simply be delegated to a consensus of experienced players and we will move forward from there.
a object can be subjective readable, this means that the object can be non-readable for a BAT that mods it, and for another one it can be readable, it's 100% subjective about modding too, it can't be a rule, there will be many point of view and thoughts that will be in conflict
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Readability isn't subjective. Please read.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

Readability isn't subjective. Please read.
it still depends on experience, no matter what game you are playing.

This shouldn't be a rule due to subjectivity.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Did you even read that? The cases which depend on experience are OK a go-go under my definition of readability.
Heck, SFG clusters are OK under my definition.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
Your definition, sure.

<Person modding the map>'s definition? Maybe not. That's why such a subjective rule shouldn't exist.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Okay, let's leave it to the other rules to take care of this then.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Just knock this to a guideline and switch "must" to "should" and we're right as rain
Lunah_old
Lunah_old

Ephemeral wrote:

Just knock this to a guideline and switch "must" to "should" and we're right as rain
could not agree more
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
No discussion for 1 year, and can't make anything out of it in #modhelp, so i guess this isn't necessary anymore, nuking this, if you really think this or something similar should be enforced then feel free to make a new thread with the suggested Rule/Guideline.
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