Repeat arrows on sliders must be visible. Make sure that hitbursts (100s/300s/etc) from previous notes are not covering any repeat arrows or even the paths/ends of sliders (use the default skin to check if using hitbursts from another skin). This way, all sliders will be easily visible and playable.

In fact, I can think of one case where it's still perfectly readable despite having a hidden repeat arrow. Say you have a note, and then a slider with 2 repeats under it:

(this wasn't actually in the map, I put it just as an example)

In most cases, I find this to be readable, and I'm sure others agree.

I suggest to put this as a guideline, because there are some cases where it works, especially after knowing the map and song.

I personally can see why they're bloody unreadable shit, but there are cases in which they should be readable (namely, in streams where a slider can have 2 repeats but may be covered by previous notes in the stream)


I think it's a very good rule to leave in place as it is.

I agree with Shiirn as well.

There are really no cases which can bypass this rule and look good, let alone look readable. One "exception" to the rule doesn't mean it should become a guideline.

The repeat arrows are visible in that map.
The first repeat is visible outright, and the second one is visible for a long enough time.

mm201 wrote:

The repeat arrows are visible in that map.
The first repeat is visible outright, and the second one is visible for a long enough time.

The second repeat is visible for 375 ms at BPM 160. AR10 is visible for 450 ms.
These sorts of sliders are not completely unreadable, but they should be avoided and are up to the modders discretion.

Hello everyone! Please don't skim this post, it covers a lot of information and I don't want the point to be missed!


I've been thinking about this rule for a while and from looking at newly ranked maps (and old classics) I've come to the conclusion that this rule needs reworking.

First, here's why this rule isn't going to work well as it currently stands.

Short multiple repeat sliders would no longer be rankable
This is a big, big BIG issue with this rule.

This is a multiple repeat slider with two repeats. Every repeat of this slider lasts a mere 83 ms, so it isn't feasible to notice the second repeat. Even if the player DID have the superhuman reaction time to notice a repeat, it blends in with the rest of the circle almost perfectly!

Can you see the repeat? Just barely if you look at it for a while (most definitely not in 83ms)

This is definitely not the only map that uses these kind of sliders. Countless others use these short multiple repeat sliders.

So why do they work right now?

Because players don't actually look for the second repeat.
If you're playing through a map and you come across a short slider with a repeat visible, you're not going to let go as soon as the first repeat ends, you're going to wait for the slider to visibly and audibly end. Players have been waiting for short sliders to end for years now, it's part of how we play! We notice the first repeat and hold on until we're sure the slider has ended. And you know what? It plays great. It has always been widely accepted in maps to do this and because of this short multiple repeat sliders are readable.


The above information establishes why this rule needs reworking, and I will now propose a solution to this issue.

Instead of
"[Rule] Repeat arrows on sliders must be visible"

The rule should be
[Rule]The first repeat arrow on sliders must be visible

As long as players can see the first repeat arrow on a slider, they will intuitively hold on until the slider finishes. There is no need to see the second, third, etc. repeats because they were never relied on in the first place.

Changing the rule would still prevent badly hidden repeat sliders and would allow the short sliders that players know and love.

Here's an example of what the modified rule would allow and disallow.

Please consider and understand that this new rule would render almost every map unrankable. Also, please take into consideration my proposed rule change - I feel that it will solve any issues that arise with hidden repeats. I'm only here to help.

Sounds fine to me.

I agree with Charles, then this slider should be fine?
If yes I just need the good timing (:

eldnl wrote:

I agree with Charles, then this slider should be fine?
If yes I just need the good timing (:

Yes, that silder would be okay under the modification (http://puu.sh/7XTa) It's a kickslider with two repeats.

Common sense: kick sliders repeat arrow visibility has always been fine, i normally tend to either let go of the slider when i visibly see the hitburst, or look for when i have to hit the next note and hold until then, there are longer sliders that do repeat twice, but due to some stacking at the start you cant see the second reverse arrow (i've combo broken to these when modding), instead just add kick sliders as a exception, it's not like they are hard to read for any experienced player anyways.

slow 2x+ repeats are hard as hell for me to read.

short repeating sliders are essentially hold sliders in my book and suffer the same problem as every other hold note we've come across: I have no idea when it ends until it ends.

It's impossible for this to happen with long sliders without two or more objects happening at the same time.
The only functional difference Charles's rule makes is for kick sliders and rebounding etnas.

impossible?

That's not long

actually no, the follow points tell you there is a repeat, but it is a little too short for a 2x repeat IMO.

If slider ticks are too subtle, I don't want to think about how subtle followpoints are.

So if it was fine?
Why did this happen? viewtopic.php?p=1034341#p1034341

Go ask them.

I knew starmine was going to get brought up

I believe it was de-ranked because there was no clear definition of a hidden repeat.

I believe the main reason this could be a problem is if the player has to move their cursor to keep up with the repeats, requiring the player to guess the repeats. If the slider were short the player would not need to move their cursor, therefore they can shift their entire focus on waiting for the hitburst.

Each repeat lasts 258 ms on that slider, which can be argued as both short and long. However, the player can keep their mouse in the center and still hit all repeats, so I would consider the slider short.

The time before the second repeat hits is 516 ms of slider time, which is half a second.
I don't think the map should have been deranked, half a second is plenty time to move to the center and wait for a hitburst. Then again, this brings up the problem of being subjective.

I personally think that the modified rule would still work even under these conditions because hitbursts fade out rather quickly - the only time hidden second repeats occur is with short sliders.

Sakura Hana wrote:

impossible?

personaly I was okay with this I had no problems reading it nor was it impossible common sense dictates that you would hold a slider till you see the next note appear or the slider ends.

You gotta be kidding. I was told to take that pattern out of my map that got ranked a while ago....... (rage)

ouranhshc wrote:

You gotta be kidding. I was told to take that pattern out of my map that got ranked a while ago....... (rage)

good. 2x+ repeating sliders suck if they're between 100 ms and 400 ms long per repeat.

ziin wrote:

ouranhshc wrote:

You gotta be kidding. I was told to take that pattern out of my map that got ranked a while ago....... (rage)

good. 2x+ repeating sliders suck if they're between 100 ms and 400 ms long per repeat.

lol

And my first rank got unranked for a pattern like that, which is why i pay a lot of attention to those now, and go figure they were fine all the time. :<

Sakura Hana wrote:

they were fine under newRules.

fix'd.

ztrot wrote:

personaly I was okay with this I had no problems reading it nor was it impossible common sense dictates that you would hold a slider till you see the next note appear or the slider ends.

More like it's okay because it's a non-1/4 slider on an Insane, and therefore is okay by default because by that point the player should be able to handle these just fine.

Seriously, if the map is made well, then the player will intuitively go for two repeats. If it's made poorly then the map should be getting modded, not ranked.

On that map in particular, I don't see how the player would have time to read the individual repeat arrows anyway.

They tell you there is a jump to. And that it might be the last repeat.

Ammended to:

Yey, nice.

Doesnt matter at all. It is no for me. The repeat slide indicates to turn back but not so long. It can easly confuses to others.

Re-amending this rule because it wasn't done right the first time. Only the first repeat arrow of KICK SLIDERS needs to be visible; that is, short/repeating sliders that are normally 1/4 or 1/8 where it's impossible to see more than the first arrow.

All other normal-length sliders MUST have EVERY repeat visible.

Derekku wrote:

Re-amending this rule because it wasn't done right the first time. Only the first repeat arrow of KICK SLIDERS needs to be visible; that is, short/repeating sliders that are normally 1/4 or 1/8 where it's impossible to see more than the first arrow.

All other normal-length sliders MUST have EVERY repeat visible.

It's true.

I would add fast songs 1/2 and 1/3 sliders to "kick sliders" definition. Ah 1/6 too for obvious reason.

An 1/2 in 200 BPM it's still an 1/4 in 100 BPM. Same for 1/3 and 1/6

More simply, if a slider with many reverses requires any cursor movement, then it's not a kick slider and is probably unrankable.

mm201 wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/3296

Which annoyed me when playing the game. As far as I see it, that's only rankable on account of the map retaining its authenticity. I wouldn't exactly hold every aspect of iNiS maps to the standards of osu!, which have been developed over the course of five years.

DEEDIT: Also read, "probably unrankable." Of course, if there is ample time to read a repeat arrow, then a mad kickslider would be fine. However, if a repeat comes out of nowhere and gives mere milliseconds to be read, then there's probably a problem.