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Individual ownership of property based on society's decision

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Topic Starter
abraker

B1rd wrote:

That means the discussion then comes to be about the morality of using your property within society in which it has an effect on other people, which is deep in the realm of practical political and economic philosophy, which is something that I'm interested in.
The last question's answers boiled down to the use of AI as property which you can do whatever you want with even if it goes against societal views. Now while I can agree that you technically decide what to do with it since you own it, I also believe there should be a fine distinction between ownership and use of that ownership against others. If others believe that your actions are hindering the full beneficial use of the object, should they be able to decide for you to let go of ownership? Well, no, that's called stealing from a prick. However if your decisions of how to use the property are deliberately harming others for self enjoyment or fulfillment, I believe that is when the decision for the owner to let go of the property becomes more relevant.

B1rd wrote:

However what I can say, if someone wasn't harming anyone else, it definitely would be immoral to initiate force upon that person because it was perceived that they weren't benefiting society with their own property as much as they could have.
As said, that's called stealing from a prick. Society wouldn't like that and would want more, but it's not enough to justify force upon the person. However, wanting to regain lost benefit back might justify action because nobody wants to loose something they already have.

B1rd wrote:

If you were to say that it were immoral, to be consistent, you would also have to say that videos on Youtube of people destroying stuff is also immoral. If someone is willing to pay $100 million for something's destruction, then that's pretty clear that that person values the destruction more than the rest of society values its existence. And in the first place, it's private property, for one to do with as one pleases.
It was never specified if he wants the AI destroyed for self enjoyment or because of some other more secretive reason he cannot tell. However, when it comes to the decision to destroy the AI for no reason but value, it is question of whether that value is for self enjoyment or fulfillment or for a noble cause. Society would not allow for an individual to take away something they have because that individual wants to have a laugh.
Serraionga
Zekks
B1rd

abraker wrote:

The last question's answers boiled down to the use of AI as property which you can do whatever you want with even if it goes against societal views. Now while I can agree that you technically decide what to do with it since you own it, I also believe there should be a fine distinction between ownership and use of that ownership against others. If others believe that your actions are hindering the full beneficial use of the object, should they be able to decide for you to let go of ownership? Well, no, that's called stealing from a prick. However if your decisions of how to use the property are deliberately harming others for self enjoyment or fulfillment, I believe that is when the decision for the owner to let go of the property becomes more relevant.

As said, that's called stealing from a prick. Society wouldn't like that and would want more, but it's not enough to justify force upon the person. However, wanting to regain lost benefit back might justify action because nobody wants to loose something they already have.

It was never specified if he wants the AI destroyed for self enjoyment or because of some other more secretive reason he cannot tell. However, when it comes to the decision to destroy the AI for no reason but value, it is question of whether that value is for self enjoyment or fulfillment or for a noble cause. Society would not allow for an individual to take away something they have because that individual wants to have a laugh.
The robot never was "society's". Society is just a term for a group of people, it's not an entity in itself. The property was the owner's. There is still zero justification for "society" to do infringe upon an owners rights no matter what he does with his property. If other people do not approve, they are free to criticise, boycott, or any other non-violent form of protest they wish, but they're still not allowed to infringe upon the owners right with violence or force.

You have failed to define what you mean by "harm". Withdrawing the use of your property is not "harming" anyone else. Harming someone else is damaging someone else's body or property. It doesn't matter if the owner withdrew the use of his property purely because of a sadistic desire to inflict pain upon others by withdrawing something they had a dependence on. Dependence does not give you any claim to someone else's property. And deciding whether someone did a certain actions for "noble purposes", or to "harm" other people is completely arbitrary. It's impossible to enforce and any attempt to do so would inevitably result in gross injustices against people who had no desire to harm anyone else.
The only situation in which it would be okay to seek compensation from a property owner is if the other parties had a contract with the property owner for use of his service.

I know it was never specified what he wanted the robot for, but to say that he wanted to destroy the robot for no tangible reason is ridiculous. Only an insane person would do that. As I've already explained, people generally act in their own self-interest. Do you not agree with that statement? We can assume one of three things: that the person was insane, that people don't generally act in their own self interest, or that the value that he payed for that robot was equivalent to what that robot was worth to him.
Railey2
you don't know what an entity is, B1rd

here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity
B1rd
Okay. It's not a living entity.

Actually, as I said, it's not an entity in and of itself, it is merely a term for a collective of individual components, which without it doesn't can't exist.
Railey2
abstract concepts are entities

Society is an abstract concept, society is an entity
schism

[ - Zekks - ] wrote:

(.....)
schism

[ - Zekks - ] wrote:







Topic Starter
abraker

B1rd wrote:

The robot never was "society's". Society is just a term for a group of people, it's not an entity in itself. The property was the owner's. There is still zero justification for "society" to do infringe upon an owners rights no matter what he does with his property. If other people do not approve, they are free to criticise, boycott, or any other non-violent form of protest they wish, but they're still not allowed to infringe upon the owners right with violence or force.
If you suddenly said "fuck you all 100,000 people living on my land that I own, get the fuck out", then what do you think their response will be? You can make only a certain number of people unhappy before your rights are overwhelmed by majority even if it isn't right to infringe upon those rights.

B1rd wrote:

You have failed to define what you mean by "harm". Withdrawing the use of your property is not "harming" anyone else. Harming someone else is damaging someone else's body or property. It doesn't matter if the owner withdrew the use of his property purely because of a sadistic desire to inflict pain upon others by withdrawing something they had a dependence on. Dependence does not give you any claim to someone else's property. The only situation in which it would be okay to seek compensation from a property owner is if the other parties had a contract with the property owner for use of his service.
B1rd, what would your response be if in a town where there is only one ISP, that ISP decided to end and deny their services to you and their contract says they could do so?

B1rd wrote:

I know it was never specified what he wanted the robot for, but to say that he wanted to destroy the robot for no tangible reason is ridiculous. Only an insane person would do that. As I've already explained, people generally act in their own self-interest. Do you not agree with that statement? We can assume one of three things: that the person was insane, that people don't generally act in their own self interest, or that the value that he payed for that robot was equivalent to what that robot was worth to him.
Or we can assume the fourth, the person was acting in their own self-interest but he payed less than what the robot was worth to him. You are assuming that worth and payment is equivalent when it is not. Worth is equivalent to payment and action added together. Consider the person wanted to see the AI destroyed because it affected his life badly, but also because he didn't want it to be gone, the payment is less than what the AI is worth to him.
B1rd

abraker wrote:

If you suddenly said "fuck you all 100,000 people living on my land that I own, get the fuck out", then what do you think their response will be? You can make only a certain number of people unhappy before your rights are overwhelmed by majority even if it isn't right to infringe upon those rights.

B1rd, what would your response be if in a town where there is only one ISP, that ISP decided to end and deny their services to you and their contract says they could do so?

Or we can assume the fourth, the person was acting in their own self-interest but he payed less than what the robot was worth to him. You are assuming that worth and payment is equivalent when it is not. Worth is equivalent to payment and action added together. Consider the person wanted to see the AI destroyed because it affected his life badly, but also because he didn't want it to be gone, the payment is less than what the AI is worth to him.
Who exactly owns the land of 100,000 people? And anyway, just because a lynch mob forms because they are unhappy with something, in no way does that morally justify the lynch mob. It's called tyranny of the majority. And as as I've already mentioned, it would be almost certain that there would be some kind of contract that would mean the tenets had some security with their housing. If an ISP suddenly decided to end their contract, so what? Are businesses not allowed to stop offering their services? And there is no reason unless I lived in a remote area that there would only be one ISP, except if they was a government-granted regional monopoly.

And I have no idea what you mean with your last paragraph. It is possible that the robot was worth more to him than $100 million, but if it were worth less he wouldn't pay that amount.
Topic Starter
abraker

B1rd wrote:

If an ISP suddenly decided to end their contract, so what? Are businesses not allowed to stop offering their services? And there is no reason unless I lived in a remote area that there would only be one ISP, except if they was a government-granted regional monopoly.
This is a scenario you say is impossible, but I am implying hypothetical circumstances. It's cooperate, it's a monopoly, and they have denied you.

B1rd wrote:

And I have no idea what you mean with your last paragraph. It is possible that the robot was worth more to him than $100 million, but if it were worth less he wouldn't pay that amount.
Failure to grasp action as part of worth. How can rephrase the paragraph to make more sense to you?

If you don't want to give up property but someone offers to buy it that you will know will do a better job with it then you can, would it make sense to pay less than to someone you know will do a shit job with it?
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