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Hardcore Newbie Mafia 2 - Setup Discussion

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LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
I'm currently playing around with this as the setup for the next HNM.

Ballot Box Manager: Once per game, can use his ablility to reset the votes in the box. This ability is able to be used up to 12 hours past the official deadline. (Yes, this means even if not present in the game, I am allowing 12 hours of discussion PAST the lynch deadline, or when someone is lynched via votes.) If Roleblocked at night, his power is unusable the next day, and will fail if it's used. (This does not remove his ability entirely.)



Ballot Box Manager Decisions: To use his ability Vig-style or not.

Pros: Vig style gives a confirmed townie the moment the ability is used.

Cons: May make it too difficult for mafia to win, giving a free confirmed townie.



Scenarios: (Some may be cut, I'm just listing a lot.)

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Doctor, 1 Ballot Box Manager.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Cop, 1 Ballot Box Manager.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Jailkeeper, 1 Cop.

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Cop, 1 Ballot Box Manager.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Doctor, 1 Ballot Box Manager.

2 Mafia Goon, 6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Ballot Box Manager.

1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 4 Vanilla Townies, 1 Doctor, 1 Cop, 1 Ballot Box Manager.
1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Cop, 1 Ballot Box Manager.
1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Doctor, 1 Ballot Box Manager.
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
Bold text.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu

adam2046 wrote:

Bold text.
I'm lazy. You people know how to read right? :D
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
I still think that having a seperate role just to "reset" the votes is pretty useless.
Why don't you just allow unvoting and revoting >.>
It's horrible imbalanced to the Mafia side if you remove the unvoting mechanic.

Also:
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor.
That's basically one of the set-ups in the first game. F11 is already imbalanced towards Mafia.

2 Mafia Goon, 6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Ballot Box Manager is also imbalanced towards Mafia.
It's the only set-up with 2 goons. Thus the 2 goons know that there are no other power roles.

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Jailkeeper, 1 Cop.
Having no ballot manager really makes this easier for Mafia to win. The rolecop makes up for the jailkeeper and cop.

Edit:
Why do you want to remove the unvoting anyway :/
It ruins so many techniques for scumhunting. (RVS, Pressure Votes, Changing votes after a believable claim)
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Doublepost, because someone may be reading my previous post.

Having a Ballot Box Manager, would also lead to so much wine.
Who should the doctor protect? The Ballot Box Manager or someone else?
If there is a cop in the set-up, and also is revealed, who does the doctor protect?
Conversely who does mafia kill? Who does mafia roleblock, if possible?
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu

NoHItter wrote:

I still think that having a seperate role just to "reset" the votes is pretty useless.
Why don't you just allow unvoting and revoting >.>
It's horrible imbalanced to the Mafia side if you remove the unvoting mechanic.

Also:
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor.
That's basically one of the set-ups in the first game. F11 is already imbalanced towards Mafia.

2 Mafia Goon, 6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Ballot Box Manager is also imbalanced towards Mafia.
It's the only set-up with 2 goons. Thus the 2 goons know that there are no other power roles.

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Jailkeeper, 1 Cop.
Having no ballot manager really makes this easier for Mafia to win. The rolecop makes up for the jailkeeper and cop.

Edit:
Why do you want to remove the unvoting anyway :/
It ruins so many techniques for scumhunting. (RVS, Pressure Votes, Changing votes after a believable claim)
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Doctor. - 2of4, used on mafiascum. Roleblocker was removed mainly due to roleblocker vs roleblocker, not due to imbalance overall.

"2 Mafia Goon, 6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Ballot Box Manager is also imbalanced towards Mafia.
It's the only set-up with 2 goons. Thus the 2 goons know that there are no other power roles." - Considered not posting this. any other combination with 2 goons makes it terribly difficult for mafia, IMO. Maybe one with a doctor, but that'd be as far as I'd go.

"1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Jailkeeper, 1 Cop.
Having no ballot manager really makes this easier for Mafia to win. The rolecop makes up for the jailkeeper and cop." - Doesn't seem like it'd be that difficult to me. I don't seem to have the trouble with not voting, and this is used in 2of4.

Why do you want to remove the unvoting anyway :/
It ruins so many techniques for scumhunting. (RVS, Pressure Votes, Changing votes after a believable claim) - It's an experement I want to run for a few games. | RVS: Using FoS/HoS accomplishes mostly the same thing. Bandwagon votes in RVS mean nothing with good mafia, and with bad mafia you should detect them anyway. | Pressure Votes: Just say something along the lines of "Intent to Vote: XXX" along with why. If they don't answer from the pressure, you can vote them whenever. Pressure can be applied without the need to vote. | Claims: Don't vote so hastilly. Use Intent to Vote, keep track of how many plan to, and have them claim. I'm still determining if mafia in this are more or less inclined to vote, but one that's been discovered it may be easier to find mafia using this.

The box manager only gets one use per game. After that, he's just a confirmed townie (if using the vig-style.) Otherwise, he's just a townie. There's no real need to have a doctor protect him. Doctor should always protect the cop if known, and unconfirmed townies unless the confirmed townie is a really strong player. Mafia chooses to roleblock/kill whomever they deem needed.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu
I'm considering a variant where you're allowed a single unvote. Thoughts?
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

LadySuburu wrote:

I'm considering a variant where you're allowed a single unvote. Thoughts?
Nah.

The most lenient thing I can come up with (aside from a role like the one you made) is: You cannot change your vote from 48 hours before the scheduled day end until the day ends.

Also, y u kill me in HNM1, mafia? D=
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu

Ph0X wrote:

LadySuburu wrote:

I'm considering a variant where you're allowed a single unvote. Thoughts?
Nah.

The most lenient thing I can come up with (aside from a role like the one you made) is: You cannot change your vote from 48 hours before the scheduled day end until the day ends.

Also, y u kill me in HNM1, mafia? D=
Good idea, may implement a variant.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
I cannot express my current frustration enough at the no unvoting rule you set.
Sigh.

Edit:
I really think that a set-up such as this with one "Ballot Box Manager" is still imbalanced towards the scum.
I've tried playing out the scenarios in my head, and it only takes one good gambit, or a strawman for scum to win - even in Ly-Lo.
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu

NoHItter wrote:

I cannot express my current frustration enough at the no unvoting rule you set.
Sigh.

Edit:
I really think that a set-up such as this with one "Ballot Box Manager" is still imbalanced towards the scum.
I've tried playing out the scenarios in my head, and it only takes one good gambit, or a strawman for scum to win - even in Ly-Lo.
I'm going to go with the whole "No unvoting after X hours." Kind of thing, with a vote reset once it occurs. Of course, lynches would be able to happen before the vote reset. We'll see how that turns out, combined with the Ballot Box role used in the most town-friendly varient.

Might make it too easy on town, but oh well.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Seems fair enough for a test game.
Though I suggest not using real players as guinea pigs without really thinking it through >.>
LadySuburu
80 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
LadySuburu

NoHItter wrote:

Seems fair enough for a test game.
Though I suggest not using real players as guinea pigs without really thinking it through >.>
I'm a firm believer that any test run in this kind of game is invalid unless run with actual players.

I mean, statistics can help, but really mean nothing with human players. Humans are so varied.

Anyway, if you don't want to play with a potentially horribly broken ruleset, all that's in your way is choosing not to sign up. :P
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