Hello there! After some time of discussion within the people involved in the United Beat-Knights of Ranking Criteria, we have come to an agreement to set a draft for the new rules and guidelines for osu!taiko. Notice this is NOT the final result, as we need the feedback of the community first before getting it officially bumped into the wiki.


Access the draft here!

Revision of this draft ends on the 18th of September 2017! Make sure to drop your feedback by until then!

just asking the question here, as many probably won't guess from this draft: yes this allows consecutive 1/4 finishers or finishers in the middle of streams for ranking.

Do you think you need a guideline against jackhammering then or do you think this should stay as is and just wait and see what people do to it?

- sry the thought just crossed my mind just now and not like 6 hours ago -

The base Slider Velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.

This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.

also about Slider Velocity's overlap like on kiai's end it changed to x0.6 for example right on the last note of kiai and it is overlap as slowdown maybe you need to add this too.

*still thinking about the rest*

1. A note must not overlap more than 50% of the upcoming note(s).

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.

^ same, this rule should either be changed to what he said or be a guideline instead

also raiden you told me rule 1 included finishers but i still don't get in what way it disallows finishers in middle of streams or idk
and yeah this should be written, common sense isn't a thing here

because it doesn't, after a lot of discussion they decided the only way to get new ideas and concepts into this mode is by allowing them lol

Okorin wrote:

because it doesn't, after a lot of discussion they decided the only way to get new ideas and concepts into this mode is by allowing them lol

them => allowing big notes to be used in any sort of ways, aka full big notes stream, may it even contains 1/6 etc

well nvm he wrote this wasnt the entire thing which means he is keeping the big note restriction rule from the previous RC zzz
almost trolled

Niko-nyan wrote:

This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.

It is completely fair, and it's more recommended to do. If you use a lower SV, more notes will appear on playfield and new players would just get lost.

Tasha wrote:

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.

I'm all for supporting this, iirc the argument is that low SV disturbs gameplay (correct me if I'm wrong), which I do not agree with. Probably making use of the "effective SV" term would do too.

Okorin wrote:

because it doesn't, after a lot of discussion they decided the only way to get new ideas and concepts into this mode is by allowing them lol

at least between 80 ~ 85bpm or not exceed, even use DT it still able to hit I guess (with singletapping). finisher in the middle/begining of stream its really... still wont to use it bcus we know people will dislike that. I ever map pattern like Kdd 1/4 BPM80 bcus it just 1 exist and think it fine for rank

depends beatsnap n bpm w didnt realis, nofool post was refreshd..

Niko-nyan wrote:

This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.

also about Slider Velocity's overlap like on kiai's end it changed to x0.6 for example right on the last note of kiai and it is overlap as slowdown maybe you need to add this too.

*still thinking about the rest*

This would probably be material for the Difficulty-specific criteria draft.

Tasha wrote:

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.

However where do you set the readability limit? As a rule, you cannot have it subjectively measured. With some drawing (props to _Gezo_) we figured having 50% as a rule would make it easier to set the limit and for modders to know where the limit is. Slow SV is still allowed and 50% overlap is pretty much what 1.40 SV 1/8 notes do, so it is still pretty big. Anything more than that you could argue that 98% overal is still readable as you can see 1 red/blue pixel inside of the white border of the notes.

Nofool wrote:

them => allowing big notes to be used in any sort of ways, aka full big notes stream, may it even contains 1/6 etc

well nvm he wrote this wasnt the entire thing which means he is keeping the big note restriction rule from the previous RC zzz
almost trolled

We are not keeping any rule nor guideline of the old RC if it would in any case overlap with the current one in discussion. Remember that this one is going to take priority over the old RC. So yes, it would remove it and allow mid stream finishers as long as it fits rule 1.
(also it'd be nice not to use the pronoun he or him too much since this was a work of multiple people not just me XD)

Thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming

If Slider Velocity changes are in use, they should be corresponding to pacing changes in the song. That means not speeding up calm parts, or slowing down fast paced parts of a song.

Uh.. I mean it's an obvious thing but I've seen so many cases where SV in-/decreases are used weirdly, this sounds too vague for the current moment. While other things are a standard (using 1,40x SV, proper Kiai usage, etc.), this point is less helping and feels like it scares people away of trying things.

Stefan wrote:

Uh.. I mean it's an obvious thing but I've seen so many cases where SV in-/decreases are used weirdly, this sounds too vague for the current moment. While other things are a standard (using 1,40x SV, proper Kiai usage, etc.), this point is less helping and feels like it scares people away of trying things.

I don't understand your concern here. Do you mean this would be too restrictive (e.g. totally disallowing people to use fast SV on calmer parts of a song?)

If that's the case, there is a reason why it is a guideline and may be broken under some circumstances and after thorough explanation has been given by the mapper.

Raiden wrote:

I don't understand your concern here. Do you mean this would be too restrictive (e.g. totally disallowing people to use fast SV on calmer parts of a song?)

If that's the case, there is a reason why it is a guideline and may be broken under some circumstances and after thorough explanation has been given by the mapper.

Well, it goes in that direction. and I know things which aren't suitable like that, should be fixed during the modding process. However, I am not sure how strict this is treaten at all.

Raiden wrote:

[*]Kiai time should be only used for the chorus or emphasized parts of a song. Kiai flashes/short kiais are discouraged for several reasons: they disturb the gameplay experience, especially on low-end PC users, and can cause trouble for epileptic users.

really?, in my skin when kiai comes it doesn't show any flashes, it depends with user's skins, i can upload those skins into this thread (pm me when necessary).
but yes, it disturbs the gameplay when kiai shows lmao, that's why im using transparent kiais

you wrote:

If Slider Velocity changes are in use, they should be corresponding to pacing changes in the song. That means not speeding up calm parts, or slowing down fast paced parts of a song.

to be honest, Slider Velocity should be used when its necessary, for example when pitch/instruments are come down and down, for best choose is increase a bit SV to get more and better experiences when playing, i don't agree with this one, but yes, sometime its a bit hard when playing, but the timeline is better rather than not using any Slider Velocity (in this case it means plain for me)

PatZar wrote:

really?, in my skin when kiai comes it doesn't show any flashes, it depends with user's skins, i can upload those skins into this thread (pm me when necessary).
but yes, it disturbs the gameplay when kiai shows lmao, that's why im using transparent kiais

All rules/guideliens are set for Default skin, though.

to be honest, Slider Velocity should be used when its necessary, for example when pitch/instruments are come down and down, for best choose is increase a bit SV to get more and better experiences when playing, i don't agree with this one, but yes, sometime its a bit hard when playing, but the timeline is better rather than not using any Slider Velocity (in this case it means plain for me)

That's exactly what the guideline implies, "when pitch/instruments are come down and down" means the song's pace is slowing down and you are using an SV according to this pacing change.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something?

Thanks for posting!

Raiden wrote:

Tasha wrote:

This still concerns me as I feel it is extremely limiting on low SV sections. Having it so that it must be easily discernible whether a note is a don or a kat would make more sense (i.e: don't allow overlap to the point where you can't tell what the following notes are at all / their colour isn't visible) as a hard rule to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here though so correct me if i'm not understanding properly.

However where do you set the readability limit? As a rule, you cannot have it subjectively measured. With some drawing (props to _Gezo_) we figured having 50% as a rule would make it easier to set the limit and for modders to know where the limit is. Slow SV is still allowed and 50% overlap is pretty much what 1.40 SV 1/8 notes do, so it is still pretty big. Anything more than that you could argue that 98% overal is still readable as you can see 1 red/blue pixel inside of the white border of the notes.

1.4SV is a guideline so a bad thing to base this subject off of. 1.0SV or similar would easily go past the 50% point compared to 1.4SV you're talking about while still being readable. We should be as lenient as we can here while having a solid rule, which I gave an idea for in my previous post.

Without going and measuring pixels of viewable red/blue, something like this in a low SV section should be allowed (This is from ishida's AVALON)
Anything beyond this would be too much. You can very clearly see the type of note and have enough time to react to it, presenting a reading challenge. I stand by what I said before in that as long as the color is visible (ie you don't just see the white border of the note) it should be allowed.

That level of overlapping may be a challenge for some players but for me (and many others) is just plainly annoying and hinders gameplay experience a lot (not to mention it looks aesthetically horrible). Imagine having clutters of unreadable notes in standard, or an infinite amount of teleporting notes on o!mania (I know I should not compare to other game modes, but it is just to give an example).

Regardless, we will surely reconsider the 50% overlap rule during revision depending on what further feedback we get.

Raiden wrote:

to be honest, Slider Velocity should be used when its necessary, for example when pitch/instruments are come down and down, for best choose is increase a bit SV to get more and better experiences when playing, i don't agree with this one, but yes, sometime its a bit hard when playing, but the timeline is better rather than not using any Slider Velocity (in this case it means plain for me)

That's exactly what the guideline implies, "when pitch/instruments are come down and down" means the song's pace is slowing down and you are using an SV according to this pacing change.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something? nope you are right

Thanks for posting!

anyway, what do you mean by

you wrote:

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/509112 those SVs are readable eventhough those are high SVs ammounts

PatZar wrote:

anyway, what do you mean by

you wrote:

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/509112 those SVs are readable eventhough those are high SVs ammounts

It means not smoothing out variably snapped patterns (as in, don't use the same SV change in a 3/4 pattern than in your 1/2 patterns, as that would confuse the player and make them miss most likely). "Keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps" means not doing huge SV changes in a short period of time as that would make the notes overlap; hence try to use transitioning SV (check the Speedup / Slowdown definition on the Glossary)

What I want to say has mostly already been covered by many users above me, so I don't see really any need to go in depth, but yeah I think 50% is too little, altho it's case by case.

What I didn't see was a specific comment on ninjas, so I'd thought I'd share a though or two on them, because I think they are necessary and need to be explicitly stated in taiko RC. For anyone who doesn't know what a ninja is, it is basically a super fast note that scrolls across the screen in a very short period of time - sometimes you can catch it by reflex, other times it's inhumanly possible, and must be "known" in advance.

Perhaps you'd like to say whether you'd agree with what I think to be suitable guidelines, which I guess aren't set in stone, but highly recommended to follow?

1. Ninjas are acceptable at the beginning or end of song (ideally no more than 4-5 ninjas)
2. Ninjas are also OK anywhere else in the beatmap, however, you should never use more than 2 ninjas (ideally just 1).
2.1. The spacing between the ninja and the note before it should be be no less than than 1/2 snap.
2.2. The spacing between the ninja and the note after it should be no less than 1/1 snap.
2.3. No more than 1 group of ninjas per phrase.
3. Ninjas must be predictable (eg. they follow the strong beats of the music), or maybe counting the beat between barlines.

More to follow if anything not clear.

ninja notes are a bit hard considering they could vary greatly in how acceptable they are by how readable they are, and deciding a specific limit would be pretty difficult.

Also worth mentioning that rule 1 and 3 might contradict each other a bit if the map starts when the song does, considering if the map starts with an unreadable note your best bet will often be to just to hit the button randomly in hopes to hit it.

I feel like those guidelines could also make it more clear that ninjas similiar to taiko time shouldn't be used (I think it is pretty clear in the case of taiko time but I'm not sure if the sound was louder and more clear)
Basically just how I think the guidelines could be better myself.

agu wrote:

ninja notes are a bit hard considering they could vary greatly in how acceptable they are by how readable they are, and deciding a specific limit would be pretty difficult.

Also worth mentioning that rule 1 and 3 might contradict each other a bit if the map starts when the song does, considering if the map starts with an unreadable note your best bet will often be to just to hit the button randomly in hopes to hit it.

I feel like those guidelines could also make it more clear that ninjas similiar to taiko time shouldn't be used (I think it is pretty clear in the case of taiko time but I'm not sure if the sound was louder and more clear)
Basically just how I think the guidelines could be better myself.

Yeah, ninja notes at the beginning of a song are among my least favorite mapping ideas. If I may add to Agu's second paragraph: there needs to be some clear, ongoing rhythm if you're going to successfully play a note that you can't even see. Just look at the Crack Traxxx and Music Revolver highest diffs -- the first notes of those maps occur entirely without rhythmic context, since they just appear when the opening sample ends. The next two ninja notes of Crack Traxxx are fine, as far as I'm concerned, since they occur once the song's tempo has been clearly established: if you're listening to the beat, and know that they're coming, then you can't miss them. Whereas the only way I know how to consistently hit those opening notes is to watch the "countdown to drain time" circle, or just spam the proper color.

Which leads me to the next idea: the fact that we need a stipulation of "if you know that they're coming" is very frustrating. The second and third ninjas of Crack Traxxx occur before you've played a lot of the song, so if you restart a few times, then you'll never miss them again. But ninjas in the middle of a longer song? Well, there are a few ways in which these get mapped, and some ways are quite interesting and enhance the map, while others are terrible:

There are some more ninjas at the end of the streaming section of that Crack Traxxx map as well -- luckily they correspond to with a well-established rhythmic motif. (By well-established, I mean that we've heard this exact musical phrase multiple times throughout the song, and it has always been mapped without changing the rhythm on repeat occasions.) Even though these ninjas have screwed me out of FCs, they still feel relatively fair because I know WHEN I should be playing, simply because I can understand that these ninjas copy some rhythm that I've been playing throughout the rest of the map. Their increased SV is somewhat acceptable because we've just gotten out of the most intense part of the song, and this musical phrase signals the transition from the climax of the song to the final chorus. Of course, I think it's annoying that the pattern assigned to this rhythm has changed: even though you know WHEN to play, it's not at all obvious WHAT to play. If that latter qualm were addressed, then I'd say this would be a fair use of ninjas.

There are some other ninja-type notes in this map, but they're not set with nearly so high an SV as the instances that I've mentioned. However, I will point out that these remaining ninjas are ALWAYS mapped to either of two brief, simple, oft-repeated rhythms. These are the same sorts of ninjas that occur in the Defenders map: SV not off the charts, and notes always placed in the same rhythmic context. This sort of mapping is fine, as far as I'm concerned. It's a style that engages the player with one of the fundamental rhythms of a song. I think the Defenders map does a much better job at this than the Crack Traxxx map though, since the ninja notes are consistently the same pattern (K K), whereas the patterns assigned to the repeated rhythms in the Crack Traxxx maps change (see the increased SV finisher sections in between the streams in that map).

Some instances that I wish were entirely filtered out of ranked Taiko mapping: random K before final chorus in the new Streaming Heart map, and final K at the end of the Shiny King-fu Carnival highest diff. The reason I dislike them is simple: they do not correspond to any rhythmic motif in the song. In that "good" Crack Traxxx example two paragraphs above, the ninjas are in time with a rhythm we hear again and again -- the song and the mapping have already taught you what this rhythm is, in a simpler context, the FIRST TIME you play the song. So even though the SV is REALLY high, the mapping has helped teach the player what to do. These latter two examples are not at all like it: the only way you can hit these notes is by trial and error, listening to that specific part of the song multiple times so you can figure out where they are. The mapping gives these notes heightened SV because they come at an intense moment in the song, but nothing about the mapping or song up to this point has suggested anything about this new rhythm. And so this hinders and frustrates the player just because the mapper thought that "well, making this a finisher isn't emphasis enough."

Anyway, if people want me to link to the maps mentioned or some time-stamped YouTube vids, I'll gladly do that. I've been writing this up on my phone and that would be a real hassle for me at this specific time.

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.

Not sure if you read through this guideline but it pretty much includes everything from ninja notes to turtle notes. (maybe it needs some reword to be easier to understand)

As long as you have enough justification to use the ninja notes, you can break the guideline. I think there is no need for further regulations regarding this.

Raiden wrote:

That level of overlapping may be a challenge for some players but for me (and many others) is just plainly annoying and hinders gameplay experience a lot (not to mention it looks aesthetically horrible). Imagine having clutters of unreadable notes in standard, or an infinite amount of teleporting notes on o!mania (I know I should not compare to other game modes, but it is just to give an example).

Regardless, we will surely reconsider the 50% overlap rule during revision depending on what further feedback we get.

I'm glad to see this is being reconsidered, though I'd like to say myself that something shouldn't be considered bad just of how visually appealing it may be. I also don't believe low SV hinders gameplay or is any more annoying than regular reading. The notes are on the screen far longer when SV is low so you have more time to read what the patterning is which makes up for the difficulty of reading close density where overlap is over 50%.

Raiden wrote:

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.

Not sure if you read through this guideline but it pretty much includes everything from ninja notes to turtle notes. (maybe it needs some reword to be easier to understand)

As long as you have enough justification to use the ninja notes, you can break the guideline. I think there is no need for further regulations regarding this.

Right, well I'm trying to get at what sorts of justifications should be permissible. Mere intensity/loudness, to my mind, should NOT be ample reason to break the guideline for ninjas (c.f. my second-to-last paragraph).

The limits of rankability of controversial stuff (which we cannot really cover subjectively as a rule) will be on the nominators' judgement (and ultimately, the QAT).

Raiden wrote:

Avoid using smooth SV changes which include variable snapping and keep the variation low enough to avoid overlaps. This is to ensure proper readability of the notes and their snappings.

Not sure if you read through this guideline but it pretty much includes everything from ninja notes to turtle notes. (maybe it needs some reword to be easier to understand)

As long as you have enough justification to use the ninja notes, you can break the guideline. I think there is no need for further regulations regarding this.

As someome relatively external to Taiko, in no way this guideline covers all the cases you mentioned. It covers one really specific sitiation (smooth SV changes with variable snappings) and then provides the reason for that (ensure readability). While I understand that the reason also applies for other situations such as ninja spinners, the guideline itself doesn't mention them nor imply them. You need to rewrite the rule if you want it to cover more cases (maybe something along the line of "Avoid using SV changes in a way that's detrimental to readability such as ninja notes, smooth SV changes with variable snapping and turtle notes") or o explicitly cover the other cases as additional guidelines.

Issues about 'Omit first bar lines'

The "Omit first bar line" feature of an uninherited timing point must be used when a BPM change <First case>/ Metronome reset would hinder gameplay experience aesthetically by adding unnecessary bar lines. <Second case>

I would like to elaborate the above rule a bit.

<First case>

• 
  Some bar lines should be kept in case of the bpm changes indicating a delay on some notes.
  Here's an example: (Source: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1107717 I am not self-promoting )
  
  
  
  You can see that there are a couple of RED timing points. Only
  03:46:647 -
  03:49:606 -
  03:52:565 -
  these 3 points uncheck "Omit first bar line" (that means the bar lines of them are kept).
  
  IF based on the potential rule of "Omit first bar line", the above points should have their bar lines removed (since they have BPM changes), but that is NOT the case.
  
  Bar lines ought to be kept to show 'bar divisions' clearly even though there are various BPM, when it comes to just a part of delay within a main bar division. I think it should be a part of RULE because the uses of bar lines actually represent the use of timings, in terms of rhythm division. Mappers should have a clear mind on how to use bar lines appropriately.

<Second case>

• 
  The unnecessary red timing point should be put on the metronome original BPM/timing. <-- clarify it a bit

<(Cont) Guidelines on BPM changes and its effect to the note-coming speed>

• 
  Please refer to the photo of timing again. The base bpm of that screened session is actually 81.5 (where is 03:46:647 - ).
  Some green timing points are added to make the Effective SV become more comfortable to read. They are adjusted to fitting the Effective SV of BPM=81.5.
  E.g.: BPM of 03:48:119 - 80.25*1.02=81.855~81.5
  > The extra multiplier is calculated by this formula: Base BPM (the BPM which the music follows concretely, not the delay/accel. one) / Delay(accel.) BPM
  Green timing points should be used appropriately to make the Effective SV of notes become comfy for reading when there is BPM variation within a main bar division.

I responded to ZiRoX in PM (it does include all edge cases as both turtle and ninja notes cause overlaps)

And Skylish: the rule clearly says "when it would hinder gameplay aesthetically by adding unnecessary bar lines". If the bar lines are not unnecessary... why would you need to omit them?

Regarding second case, guideline 1 applies.

Edit: actually, I think we will need extra rewording on that guideline. Thank you for your feedback

Closing for revision of round 1.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Expect some weeks for this to come back!

unlocked thread, updated the first post with the results of discussing the concerns in the ubkrc
Raiden's gonna post a summary

Hello! We're back for Round 2.

List of changes:

We felt some of the overlap/sv change guidelines were incomplete, so to compliment the new Rule 1 (more ahead), we made 3 new guidelines.


This guideline definitely needed some rewording.

Seeing the feedback on rule 1, we decided to scrap it completely.

Round 2 is officially open for feedback! Will be closed again on Sunday, 19th of March for revision.

How about a guideline to avoid making the map too repetitive when something else could be done?
I mean i'm pretty sure we can all agree that noone wants to see a map that spams the exact same rythm with the exact same pattern for 8 measures because the song stays the same.

Chromoxx wrote:

How about a guideline to avoid making the map too repetitive when something else could be done?
I mean i'm pretty sure we can all agree that noone wants to see a map that spams the exact same rythm with the exact same pattern for 8 measures because the song stays the same.

partially disagree: this gives room for even less consistent mapping. sometimes if a song doesn't need a drastic change the correct solution is to avoid making it change too much

for lower difficulties, you're better off keeping the pattern similar because such changes will have a greater impact on the map quality and/or difficulty, because the skeleton uses as many anchor points. changing these anchor points for the sake of variety will affect how the difficulties work between each other and how the difficulty itself works within itself. i think new mappers are better off starting simple then adding flavor as experience is gained rather than the other way round.

you don't want to start with drawing a very finely detailed gothic-lolita dress then a more generic one you know

"A note must not overlap more than 50% of the upcoming note(s)" this rule was good

Each note must have its color clearly distinguishable from the previous and upcoming notes.

This is kind of a vague sentence now. To be a rule I think there needs to be a strict definition of being "clearly distinguishable" like how it initially was (the 50% thing). If we cannot define it it should rather be a guideline where we can let people to judge. Some people can read it while 80% is overlapped, and those people would claim that this is not against the "rules". On the other hand some people can't clearly distinguish even when only 50% is overlapped.

I don't think we need to duplicate this in both rules and guidelines.

DakeDekaane wrote:

Niko-nyan wrote:

This isn't fair if a new player play like 225 bpm (without DT) and the Slider Velocity is 1.40 for Kantan and Futsuu so make some exceptional for certain BPM requirement.

It is completely fair, and it's more recommended to do. If you use a lower SV, more notes will appear on playfield and new players would just get lost.

With extremely fast songs Kantan/Futsuu diffs would try to use less 1/1s and 1/2s than they would do with normal bpm songs, which leads them to contain really small quantity of notes on the playfield with SV 1.40. Also in these diffs I don't think that "optimal distance of separation" has to be 1.40 sv, because they won't include 1/2s or 1/4s anyway.

It's really painful for new players to react at 270bpm 1.4x sv, because that's just a blink of an eye and they have to recognize the color and decide which finger they should move within that short amount of time. If this makes the quantity of notes on the playfield too many, it's probably already a Muzukashii diff.

Kiai time should be only used for the chorus or emphasized parts of a song. Kiai flashes/short kiais are discouraged for several reasons: they disturb the gameplay experience especially on low-end PC users, and can cause trouble for epileptic users.

Isn't this related to all game modes? I think it should rather go to General ruleset instead of Taiko ruleset. Finalized CtB and STD rulesets don't contain this too, but we know that overusing kiais causes these problems in any game modes.

idk how people find "you mast be able to see how many notes there are and what color they are" is vague
like what else would clearly distinguishable entail

the kiai part thing is because the immediate effect of it is more score per note btw

Just like we have a rule of spinner in std "Spinners must be long enough for Auto to achieve 1000 bonus score. Short spinners are unreasonably difficult to complete.", why not for Taiko's overlapping limit? "Short spinners are Unreasonably difficult to complete" is a vague sentence so that's why we made a minimum objective limit of auto gaining at least 1000 bonus score. Imo if this has to stay as a rule more strict definition would be good.

Also if the score multiplication is what matters regarding the use of kiai most, then it should be included in additional explanation too.

Doyak wrote:

Each note must have its color clearly distinguishable from the previous and upcoming notes.

This is kind of a vague sentence now. To be a rule I think there needs to be a strict definition of being "clearly distinguishable" like how it initially was (the 50% thing). If we cannot define it it should rather be a guideline where we can let people to judge. Some people can read it while 80% is overlapped, and those people would claim that this is not against the "rules". On the other hand some people can't clearly distinguish even when only 50% is overlapped.

I don't think we need to duplicate this in both rules and guidelines.

Kiai time should be only used for the chorus or emphasized parts of a song. Kiai flashes/short kiais are discouraged for several reasons: they disturb the gameplay experience especially on low-end PC users, and can cause trouble for epileptic users.

Isn't this related to all game modes? I think it should rather go to General ruleset instead of Taiko ruleset. Finalized CtB and STD rulesets don't contain this too, but we know that overusing kiais causes these problems in any game modes.

How is that vague in any way? It clearly states what it is as a rule, if one cannot see how many notes there are or what color they are, it would be plainly unrankable. The additional guidelines for this are just that, guidelines. This rule is to avoid edge cases.

For the kiai guideline, the fountain and shining is way more prominent in taiko than the rest of the modes, hence the use of those is discouraged more in this mode.

Doyak wrote:

Just like we have a rule of spinner in std "Spinners must be long enough for Auto to achieve 1000 bonus score. Short spinners are unreasonably difficult to complete.", why not for Taiko's overlapping limit? "Short spinners are Unreasonably difficult to complete" is a vague sentence so that's why we made a minimum objective limit of auto gaining at least 1000 bonus score. Imo if this has to stay as a rule more strict definition would be good.

Also if the score multiplication is what matters regarding the use of kiai most, then it should be included in additional explanation too.

No, it is unpractical to make a numerical limit to the overlap rule as no one in their right mind would take a ruler or zoom to count the pixels every time they mod something that seems close to be unreadable. The current rule looks pretty good as it is.

Also no, from what I know the score multiplication was never even a factor. The only factor that led us for this guideline was visuals: avoiding kiai overusage to better the experience of low-end computer players, as it causes higher load time and can therefore make the system lag.

Raiden wrote:

The only factor that led us for this guideline was visuals: avoiding kiai overusage to better the experience of low-end computer players, as it causes higher load time and can therefore make the system lag.

i'm legit mad if the game loads the texture every single time you trigger a kiai instead of loading it once and displaying it at appropriate times

--

Doyak wrote:

This is kind of a vague sentence now. To be a rule I think there needs to be a strict definition of being "clearly distinguishable" like how it initially was (the 50% thing). If we cannot define it it should rather be a guideline where we can let people to judge. Some people can read it while 80% is overlapped, and those people would claim that this is not against the "rules". On the other hand some people can't clearly distinguish even when only 50% is overlapped.

common sense
no one is gonna let a stream pass because someone can read the colors in the pixel-wide crescent of colors available for reading and we're not gonna nazi the shit out anything that overlaps

also reading skill is a skill that exists

I'm assuming this will be evaluated under default skin, right?

Every single rule and/or guideline is accounted for Default settings, yes.

aaaaaaaand closing for round 2 revision

ok since there wasn't much to dispute over this time and the things that raised concern were explained here, i'll go ahead and bubble this draft.

The only exception to this bubble is the glossary as this thing can undergo further changes as we progress with the difficulty specific draft

Popped bubble to add the few things that we came up during the process of making the specific criteria:

Draft has been ported to over here

summary of changes

rules: no taiko template backgrounds

guidelines: variable bpm songs may normalize scroll speed to a single speed
avoid visually obstructing notes with active spinners + 1/2 gap after spinners
1/2 gap before spinners should be used to avoid overlapping and offbeat starting

Discussion is open until the same day as taiko specific

So there is a guideline for the base slider velocity, I have two comments on it. I think base slider velocity should be included in the terms, and I think there should be a rule, not a guideline for the maximum and minimum allowed base slider velocities. Like no below 0.8 or 1.0 and no above 1.8 or 2.0. For certain songs 1.2 or lower base slider velocity is warranted, especially in 250 or higher bpm easier difficulties. Also for certain songs 1.6 or higher base slider velocity is warranted, especially in 80 or lower bpm songs.

added "Base slider velocity can be controlled in the timing panel and additional changes can be made through inherited (green) timing points." as osu! has it on their rc for Slider Velocity

Why do you think there should be a rule on base slider velocity? Seems excessive and unnecessary for me and the explanation you provide includes "for certain songs" which hints at "oh there's a fuckton of exceptions"

What good do you think would limiting the base Slider Velocities you can use to make maps bring?

Okorin wrote:

added "Base slider velocity can be controlled in the timing panel and additional changes can be made through inherited (green) timing points." as osu! has it on their rc for Slider Velocity

Why do you think there should be a rule on base slider velocity? Seems excessive and unnecessary for me and the explanation you provide includes "for certain songs" which hints at "oh there's a fuckton of exceptions"

What good do you think would limiting the base Slider Velocities you can use to make maps bring?

Same base Slider Velocities are just unreasonable. Like the min and maximum base slider velocities allowed in the editor (0.4 and 3.6) are too excessive for any map.

"Unreasonable" is too subjective, therefore → guideline.

It seems guidelines are highly underrated, they are supposed to NOT be broken unless exceptional circumstances are met. Which means most of the times you have to follow them anyway.

Raiden wrote:

"Unreasonable" is too subjective, therefore → guideline.

It seems guidelines are highly underrated, they are supposed to NOT be broken unless exceptional circumstances are met. Which means most of the times you have to follow them anyway.

Hmm true. You should have valid reasoning for breaking a guideline.

While we were discussing some stuff, an issue was brought up: the 1/16 slider extension that is used to "patch" the known missing slider tick bug. Since ppy himself told us not to do this anymore, we are adding it as a rule for the General Taiko draft for the time being. Once the bug is fixed, this rule will no longer be in effect.

Added rule:


edit: it is also known that opening AiMod sometimes causes bugs, so we decided to add a guideline as well. Again, once the bug is fixed, the guideline will be nuked.

Added guideline:

maybe add something like this aswell

[/quote]

custom combo colors shouldn't be used ever? add that as a rule? they're pointless.

@Kin: I do not think that is necessary as it is way too redundant. The statement "it is known to cause bugs related to base Slider Velocity" already compells people to check their base SV in the timing tab when they open AiMod for whatever reason. Checking in the .osu notepad is not compulsory.

@tatatat: why would you want a rule like that? no one ever uses combo colors in taiko - and even if they did, their behavior does not affect the editor nor the playability whatsoever.

Excuse me,

And after I've read this, I think that it's okay for me everything, except the minor one.

Gameplay elements wrote:

Rest Moment/Break Time: A period of time without notes used specifically to allow the player to rest their hands and prepare for the upcoming patterns.

Maybe "Break Time" should be add here too since the word "Break Time" are more common to used than the word "Rest Moment"
If this draft aim to replace the content on osu!taiko-specific Ranking Criteria , so the common word should be add too, for the ease to let the newbie (including me) understand. Like Don/Red Note

Break time is used to refer to the actual break time, where there are no notes in the playfield for a considerable amount of time and where the letter of accuracy shows up. So break time is not appropriate since it is not a direct synonym to rest moment in taiko.

In any case, rest moment is actually more common than break time.

Rest Moment=Break≠Break Time

Raiden wrote:

Break time is used to refer to the actual break time, where there are no notes in the playfield for a considerable amount of time and where the letter of accuracy shows up. So break time is not appropriate since it is not a direct synonym to rest moment in taiko.

In any case, rest moment is actually more common than break time.

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

Rest Moment=Break≠Break Time

Seems like I've misunderstand something, it's my bad. uwu

Thanks!

Raiden wrote:

@Kin: I do not think that is necessary as it is way too redundant. The statement "it is known to cause bugs related to base Slider Velocity" already compells people to check their base SV in the timing tab when they open AiMod for whatever reason. Checking in the .osu notepad is not compulsory.

@tatatat: why would you want a rule like that? no one ever uses combo colors in taiko - and even if they did, their behavior does not affect the editor nor the playability whatsoever.

custom combo colors are wasted file space. ehh, its probably not important though.

tatatat wrote:

Raiden wrote:

@Kin: I do not think that is necessary as it is way too redundant. The statement "it is known to cause bugs related to base Slider Velocity" already compells people to check their base SV in the timing tab when they open AiMod for whatever reason. Checking in the .osu notepad is not compulsory.

@tatatat: why would you want a rule like that? no one ever uses combo colors in taiko - and even if they did, their behavior does not affect the editor nor the playability whatsoever.

custom combo colors are wasted file space. ehh, its probably not important though.

having all combo colors set would be at most 200bytes added to the .osu filesize.
it takes one MILLION bytes to make a megabyte.
it would take over five thousand taiko difficulties with all eight custom combo colours set to waste a megabyte of space.

In conclusion, I don't think that's something to worry about.

By default settings in the Edtior, Combo Colours should not be a worry.

I wanna suggest a topic about the usages of sliders and spinners.

> Tick Rate of slider would be 3 in the snappings of 1/3 and so on. Meanwhile, the spinner 'tick rate' is set as 1, in which every 1/4 beat will create a hit in the spinner.

Here's the contradiction, if a spinner is put exactly in 1/3 snappings, the spinner may be incomplete due to unfinished '1/4 snaps'.

For example https://osu.ppy.sh/s/557316 :

> I want to put a spinner in a 2/3 snap, expectedly it should display 4 hits under 1/3 snapping scale.

> However, under the default settings of 'tick rate' of spinner, 2/3 (<3/4) is counted as 2/4, hence displaying only 2 hits.

In general cases, we solve this issue by extending the spinner in purpose to 1/1 for fulfilling the 4-hits feeling. This could be a potential guideline about the usages of sliders and spinners.

Another topic wanna be discussed is the positioning of BG photo.

As of my modding experience, I have seen some mappers, especially rookies, are unfamiliar with the adjustment of BG position for a better visual effect, by editing in the .osu in notepad. Relevant concept and knowledge should be told inside the guidelines as well.

SV leniency is another impt topic. In high BPM (I would define it as BPM>200, or it needs another defination), the base SV of Kantan and Futsuu should be able to be exceptionals of current guidelines. A clearer statement about the leniencies of SVs in lower difficulties should be stated as:

 
Under high bpm difficulties, the base SV of Kantan and Futsuu could be lowered, for the sake of the readabilities of respective level players.

More precised values should also be advised, like Kantan = 1.00x Futsuu 1.20x under BPM=260 etc..