Hi,

a few of you might already know this map since Shiirn has been getting a lot of opinions on whether these sliders are ok or not and nobody including me seems to be too sure about them (or probably against them). I think just opening discussion on these sliders would make more sense to see what's probably most reasonable to do here:

- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/994518 map
- 01:14:749 (3) - 01:20:903 (3) - 01:27:057 (3) - are concerned, as the wiggle seems fairly questionable on all of them.
- Pictures:

The main argument against these is obviously the wiggle. The argument for them is that these sliders are pretty long and the wiggle isn't that close towards their end, so a slowdown won't confuse players in their tracks as they follow the sliderpath and that the slowdown actually fits a sound in the song.

What's your stance on this, is this acceptable to you? It might help to play these sliders yourself when discussing this.
(also I think a discussion once in a while can't hurt around here so I'm looking forward to that)

Already saw and played them, they don't really affect the playability imo. They fit nicely the song without really surprise the player nor lead to a sliderbreak due to the low SV.

Should be fine.

Hey, guys! This came up after a small discussion between me and Okotaru. We'll both like to appreciate your feedback! Despite one of the sliders being a burai (thanks Charles445), we'd like to hear your opinions on how much it does affect gameplay and/or if these should receive a visual upgrade.

From my point of view, they don't affect gameplay at all since the sliders are slow enough for the players to recognize their cursors aren't moving for a short period of time, but making them more visually appealing is something I would love to see.

Shiirn should also fix the blanket from the third slider mentioned, well played.

I'm a no on this.

The current slider style (which is normally refered as mm sliders I guess?) does not give a distinct idea about the wiggle happening inside the slide. There obviously is a musical cue, and the slider was mapped after that. However the outcome fails to provide an intuitive information about that wiggles (sv change inside the slider), and that is why such techniques are considered unrankable in the first place as I know.

It could be playable enough without making misses. The wiggle is not so drastic, predictable after few plays, and not much slider ticks around there to cause a miss. But that's not how this game works. Playability is one of the important factors of ranking a map, but isn't sole. A pattern should follow the "game's rule" afterall, which single sliders should use single slider velocity. Unless, hold sliders, 2B style or even double beats should be considered rankable since they are playable enough afterall. You guys will know more that those features aren't the intended game design here.

Even if this certain technique has got exceptional cases, I believe they should be much more visually intuitive than now, and this doesn't seems to be one of the cases.

I won't make walls of text, just want to mention that those sliders look totally fine, since that speed change doesn't affect the gameplay significantly and doesn't lead to reading/playing issues.

Though this wouldn't affect the gameplay much, still I wouldn't agree with it. If the notes are running around with an unexpected way, it hurts the game design. If this map is going to be a ranked map, it should have proper game elements, not everything the mapper can make with the editor.

I remember that a long time ago, ppy or someone else from staff said he would unrank every maps with wiggle sliders that change the slider's speed.
These kind of sliders are directly unrankable, and i don't really think it should be rankable, even for this case, they don't really change the playability of the map.
Good technique, but unrankable ?

Wouldn't call 'em as unrankable. More like counter-intuitive / unpredictable.

It's perfectly playable, but i'm still against it . A lot of unrankable techniques are perfectly playable, but it doesn't make them less unrankable imo...

They are unrankable, there is not way to know that the sliders would change velocity, playability is important in this game, we need to play each slider to know how they work, basically they aren't intuitive at all. Also I don't see why we need to discuss this again, since peppy don't want this kind of stuff in his game : p/2615681

peppy wrote:

It is game breaking mechanics.

Alright, Oko will mark this as solved once he wakes up I guess.

Thank you everyone for your outputs!

I am not against them, but I don't think think we should let them be ranked wit hthe current rules. RC are being reworked, let's see if it changes anything.

Shiirn asked me for input as well, and I looked at those sliders. All of these wiggles made perfect sense and they fit the song incredbily well. Maybe making the wiggle less powerful would make it rankable yet still give such a jagged feeling, how would that sound?

Making them less powerfull and more visible should be so solution to keep these wiggles since we conclude it's sadly not rankable. Or removing them completely but that would be sad.

They are totally rankable. But the older people of you might remember that peppy called this a gamebreaking issue.

Personal opinon: fine
going with what peppy said: nop

I partialy disagree with them honestly, I'll say both of my opinions.

If we cannot change slider velocity during a slider, it's obvious that avoiding it by using red anchors is just an attempt to do something what was not supposed to be able to happen. Apart from that, "fits to the song" is not really rational argument. While that is true, people cannot predict a sound in the song while holding the slider. While it won't necessarily cause a miss, it is still just avoiding the inability to change slider's speed other way than SV. Inherited points are the only thing that should be able to change SV - wiggles are not certain. If you see a wiggle on slider, it doesn't always have to decrease the speed, red anchors were designed to change slider's appearance and it's logical - the speed you expect on wiggle could vary, some maps might have a wiggle that looks similar, but has no speed change and some maps might have a wiggle that will slow down the movement a lot. That something is able to be bugged doesn't mean it needs to be used.

That however doesn't mean I am completely against it. I'd say there are 3 factors that should be considered for judging this method. First is - How far is a wiggle from the end of a slider? If ignoring the wiggle and playing at the normal speed still hits the end of the slider without missing any slidertick and still giving 300, there shouldn't be that big problem - it can be easily checked by making a copy of the slider shape without the wiggle and looking where the sliderfollowcircle touches, if it is still touching the cursor as if played at normal speed, it shouldn't make a miss. Another thing is how much it affects the speed, it's obvious that changes like if it was half SV is way too extreme, but something like 0.9-0.75 (if original was 1.0) doesn't have to be that terrible. Last thing, which is just my little opinion, I think if there are sliderticks, they should indicate the speed change, but not like 2 sliderticks in one wiggle or some extreme deformations.

This is only my opinion but I think those sliders play well but seeing peppy's statement and the current points of the RC, they're unrankable. If the wiggle part were more predictable as the ones he did here 05:31:672 (1) - or 05:36:095 (1) - wouldn't make players to confuse at playing them.

If this were aspire, I'd 10/10 :>

I think the slider velocity is slow enough for players to react tbh. The slider seems playable to me :/
I'll say unrankable, but playable *runs*

No conclusion were made within our discussion, and I think we've already got the opinions from several people.
Maybe we can be waiting for the game creator's final conclusion regarding this issue, but I feel it's good to close this thread for now.