Here is an explanation of the situation.


"Rhythm" refers to a "repeated pattern of movement or sound".
In the context of osu! this usually means the player keeping rhythm with a constant tempo.

When a song maintains its tempo, circles and sliders are used to create what you expect: a map that requires the player to maintain rhythm while moving around on the playfield.

https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704995374998552576
When a song's tempo changes, however, the rhythm is thrown off. The music and rhythm are no longer the same thing.
The player has to adjust to the new tempo somehow, but there is no time to do so. Tempo changes come without warning.
Sliders are often used to keep gameplay fair to the player during these tempo changes.
It lets the player stop following the previous tempo and prepare for the new tempo without unfairly punishing them.

You can't click circles to the beat when the beat keeps changing.

https://twitter.com/ppy/status/705035574248235009
People don't use sliders to make rhythm pointless.
If that were true, then they would never use circles in the same map!
Instead people combine the two.
Circles and sliders when the song is consistent in tempo, sliders when it isn't.

https://twitter.com/ppy/status/705037389140328448
This rhythm game is far more fair to the player because of it, though.
This use of circles and sliders makes this game compatible with almost all kinds of music as well.



Here are some example maps that rely on this to function properly.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/412938
- This map is OD 8 and consistent BPM, it requires good accuracy to do well in. The intro, however, has many BPM changes that gradually slow down. It would be unfair to force the player to hit these objects properly, as there is no rhythm the player could follow.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/453358
- This is a bundled map. It has moments where the rhythm switches to 1/3 without warning. The mapper keeps the gameplay fair by putting those moments of 1/3 into sliders. In this situation, it would be unfair to ask the player to magically know the objects are 1/3.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/65994
- This map has 280+ tempo changes. Sliders are used in harsh tempo changes, and circles are used everywhere else. This sort of map would be impossible to create in version 2.



So, in summary, the game is already a real rhythm game. Circles exist. Circles are used.
Sliders are often used as a tool to avoid having this real rhythm game be unfair.

Forcing sliders to have accuracy wouldn't make the game more of a rhythm game.
It would simply prevent perfectly good songs from being mapped.
Tempo changes in maps would be ruined.


There is no benefit to this.

Nice

Can't say I agree with this. There are plenty of songs that have BPM changes like this in other modes that require you to hit notes accurately during BPM slowdowns / speedups. The upside to the scoreV2 sliders is that there's a new place to differentiate players in accuracy that there wasn't before. This sytem is far better than people just getting free 300's on sliders in my opinion.

,

Tasha wrote:

Can't say I agree with this. There are plenty of songs that have BPM changes like this in other modes that require you to hit notes accurately during BPM slowdowns / speedups.

Why are you talking about other modes in relation to standard? They shouldn't even come into the discussion

Tasha wrote:

Can't say I agree with this. There are plenty of songs that have BPM changes like this in other modes that require you to hit notes accurately during BPM slowdowns / speedups. The upside to the scoreV2 sliders is that there's a new place to differentiate players in accuracy that there wasn't before. This sytem is far better than people just getting free 300's on sliders in my opinion.

>bringing up other modes
hoyl same xd

I'm sure there can be a fix implemented for this. For example, removing the requirement for accuracy on sliders that begin on an unherited timing section.

Mr Color wrote:

I'm sure there can be a fix implemented for this. For example, removing the requirement for accuracy on sliders that begin on an unherited timing section.

Or just leave the game the way it is, as the game that people have played for sometimes nearly 10 years

It doesn't make sense to me to change a fundamental gameplay aspect of a game like this. When it comes to how the game is actually played, it should stay the same forever. Adding annoying sounds when you pause or type isn't a big deal, but this change is.

I can pretty much guarantee that doing well in many currently ranked maps will become a test of retrying to hit those awkward (but still accurately timed) sliders. This won't be enjoyable for anyone. Newer maps would try to avoid this by either not mapping music that's complex, or by adding breaks or simply mapping simpler parts of the music's background. This is yet another reason why I consider the change unwelcome.

I feel like the only person unsatisfied with turning this aspect of sliders into a mod (which disables the leniency) is ppy himself tbh.

I'm pretty sure like all of the informed mapping community is against this change whereas the player community is divided between players who want the added difficulty and those who don't. Mappers usually don't let mods influence their mapping outside of things like drain and spinners (ok, lets be real, some mappers are reaching all time lows) so making it just another mod would appease them and players who don't want the added difficulty can choose not to play the mod.

Actually what peppy is doing is making announcements about things he's not actually going to do to hear everyone's bad reactions so he can plan better what to do.

You're doing his work for him x^ddddd

The only thing that's concerning to me about score v2 is bpm changes, which can be very difficult to acc. It seems like there should be some solution to this without abandoning score v2 altogether, but I'm not sure what that solution would be. Mr Color's solution would work, but is rather inelegant. A secondary ranking process that allows for the old scoring system if there are special circumstances would also solve it, but would probably be a mess. Or maybe we just all need to learn how to acc bpm changes.

Beat snap divisor changes are at least possible to read perfectly and can be made more readable through patterning and new combos. And they can still be introduced by sliders as long as they start on beats anyway, which they almost always do.

Patterns that abuse the current slider hit window (hasn't been mentioned as a concern in this thread but I've heard a lot of people are concerned about it) will be better with score v2 imo. FCing a difficult pattern while still hitting on time should be worth more than FCing by spamming or by hitting half of the pattern early/late. That's already the case for patterns that use circles and this change would extend it to patterns with sliders.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ppy/status/7 ... 0345612289 I think this is the best suggestion regarding this matter but seems peppy disagrees for peppy reasons and chose to express his reasons for disagreeing in his own peppy way

Im not good at scoreV2 so im going to complain about it.

_SecondChance_ wrote:

Im not good at scoreV2 so im going to complain about it.

Has nothing to do with whether or not you are good at it. My accuracy is apparently better than yours and I still don't like it. This sounds like one of those typical egotistical attention-seeking replies. I don't blame you, though; I used to say things like that when I was 17.

My main gripe is if old maps are changed, I have no idea how he will account for the fact that old players didn't have to deal with precise timing on sliders and new players do. It's not going to be a fair scoring system if some people have a handicap just because they played earlier.

Charles445 wrote:

Here are some example maps that rely on this to function properly.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/412938
- This map is OD 8 and consistent BPM, it requires good accuracy to do well in. The intro, however, has many BPM changes that gradually slow down. It would be unfair to force the player to hit these objects properly, as there is no rhythm the player could follow.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/453358
- This is a bundled map. It has moments where the rhythm switches to 1/3 without warning. The mapper keeps the gameplay fair by putting those moments of 1/3 into sliders. In this situation, it would be unfair to ask the player to magically know the objects are 1/3.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/65994
- This map has 280+ tempo changes. Sliders are used in harsh tempo changes, and circles are used everywhere else. This sort of map would be impossible to create in version 2.



So, in summary, the game is already a real rhythm game. Circles exist. Circles are used.
Sliders are often used as a tool to avoid having this real rhythm game be unfair.

Forcing sliders to have accuracy wouldn't make the game more of a rhythm game.
It would simply prevent perfectly good songs from being mapped.
Tempo changes in maps would be ruined.


There is no benefit to this.

https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/4646452 <-2 of those 100s were from me mistapping sliders. the rest were from misaiming sliders. there's also a significantly harder to acc part in this song that completely consists of singles.
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/4646393 <-most of these 100s were from when i tried to singletap a stream
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/4646373 <-on a single

all of these were first try in a multi lobby with scorev2. the only one i had trouble on was flaplyka, which i could have improved on a ton if it had been singleplayer.

i'm not saying you're wrong, and i obviously don't have a good grasp on this issue from a mapper's standpoint, but from a player's standpoint, this did nothing but actually make me pay attention to rhythm on sliders. it did have a benefit, it did indeed make the game into more of a rhythm game.

this is simply my perspective on things.

p.s. there is a warning mechanism for bpm changes and when to tap, it's called approach circles. just because a player doesn't know how to utilize them does not mean this shouldn't get implemented. it means they should improve their reading skill. stopping changes in the game to appeal to accessibility and what is "fair" to the player is against what this game is largely about, which is self improvement.

Ohrami wrote:

_SecondChance_ wrote:

Im not good at scoreV2 so im going to complain about it.

Has nothing to do with whether or not you are good at it. My accuracy is apparently better than yours and I still don't like it. This sounds like one of those typical egotistical attention-seeking replies. I don't blame you, though; I used to say things like that when I was 17.

My main gripe is if old maps are changed, I have no idea how he will account for the fact that old players didn't have to deal with precise timing on sliders and new players do. It's not going to be a fair scoring system if some people have a handicap just because they played earlier.

But i wasnt even talking to you lol? I really am bad at score v2 and do go against it just cause of that, Calm it down man. It was a irrelevant comment directed at noone:/ people itching to start any arguement nowadays

People are so stuck up on old stuff and just refuses to accept change, some even try to threaten that they will quit the game or something like that matters lmao, we as a community should open up for change more, I really believe that this will be an improvement and wont change a lot, people are just overreacting so hard because "omg wubwub maps will be unplayable". No they wont, if you have a somewhat good acc generally that will barely change, if you cant click sliders in accurate timing like circles then you're doing something wrong, also people keep saying mapping will be ruined because of this, and I dont understand that at all, in what way will this change mapping, players will have to adapt not mappers. Also about speed ups and speed downs, I mean it works in every other rhythm game I've seen, why wouldnt it in osu, isnt it the same thing? For some reason people get anal when you compare games but its the same thing isnt it all games require you to hit the note on the correct timing. People should open up more to change because stuff will change. This isnt the only thing I've seen players upset about changes, ctb mappers seemed furious about a new editor for the mode which made absolutely no sense to me, but apperantly it will lower map quality and all good mappers will quit, lol. I really think people are overreacting at this change!

Thats my take on it, fite me!

LET THE ERA OF LOW OD COMMENCE
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/65994 RIP

Khelly wrote:

Tasha wrote:

Can't say I agree with this. There are plenty of songs that have BPM changes like this in other modes that require you to hit notes accurately during BPM slowdowns / speedups.

Why are you talking about other modes in relation to standard? They shouldn't even come into the discussion

Because the concept is literally the same as other game modes? Accuracy is a part of rhythm games. It never made sense in the first place that sliders didn't have an accuracy check beyond clicking somewhere within the 100 window and following the slider for a free 300. I'm speaking as a standard player as well despite not being super high rank. Off tempo slider stuff shouldn't just be free accuracy because people can't time their hits.

Tasha wrote:

Because the concept is literally the same as other game modes? Accuracy is a part of rhythm games, it never made sense in the first place that sliders didn't have an accuracy check beyond clicking somewhere within the 100 window and following the slider for a free 300. I'm speaking as a standard player as well despite not being super high rank. Off tempo stuff shouldn't just be free accuracy because people can't time their hits.

Have you seen the leniency on lazers in sdvx? lol

Tasha wrote:

Because the concept is literally the same as other game modes? Accuracy is a part of rhythm games. It never made sense in the first place that sliders didn't have an accuracy check beyond clicking somewhere within the 100 window and following the slider for a free 300. I'm speaking as a standard player as well despite not being super high rank. Off tempo slider stuff shouldn't just be free accuracy because people can't time their hits.

It's not free accuracy. You don't get an acc bonus for sliders. And osu! isn't just an acc game, it's an aim game as well.

I don't see a problem that maps with BPM changes won't be SS-able that easy by sightreading.
You still have your approach circles

I feel like accuracy doesn't matter much in this game. Aim is far more powerful. High acc is easily achievable once you know the basics.
By making sliders counted like a hitcircle it will be a huge buff to accuracy.

Warpyc wrote:

People are so stuck up on old stuff and just refuses to accept change, some even try to threaten that they will quit the game or something like that matters lmao, we as a community should open up for change more, I really believe that this will be an improvement and wont change a lot, people are just overreacting so hard because "omg wubwub maps will be unplayable". No they wont, if you have a somewhat good acc generally that will barely change, if you cant click sliders in accurate timing like circles then you're doing something wrong, also people keep saying mapping will be ruined because of this, and I dont understand that at all, in what way will this change mapping, players will have to adapt not mappers. Also about speed ups and speed downs, I mean it works in every other rhythm game I've seen, why wouldnt it in osu, isnt it the same thing? For some reason people get anal when you compare games but its the same thing isnt it all games require you to hit the note on the correct timing. People should open up more to change because stuff will change. This isnt the only thing I've seen players upset about changes, ctb mappers seemed furious about a new editor for the mode which made absolutely no sense to me, but apperantly it will lower map quality and all good mappers will quit, lol. I really think people are overreacting at this change!

Thats my take on it, fite me!

qft

all I really gather from this is

low accuracy players btfo

lets all quit and not update osu guys

LoliPantsu wrote:

lets all quit and not update osu guys

It's indeed disgusting but at least you'll easily decrease UR now unlike last time when you had to rely on silly trial and error just because of slider leniency.

Why not just reduce the leniency, why does it have to go from extremely lenient sliders to completely changing the mechanics of sliders, completely changing the way they'll be mapped?

Only way this could work is if slider hit window is capped by OD and not by slider speed. Not sure how that would look like tho.

chainpullz wrote:

Tasha wrote:

Because the concept is literally the same as other game modes? Accuracy is a part of rhythm games, it never made sense in the first place that sliders didn't have an accuracy check beyond clicking somewhere within the 100 window and following the slider for a free 300. I'm speaking as a standard player as well despite not being super high rank. Off tempo stuff shouldn't just be free accuracy because people can't time their hits.

Have you seen the leniency on lazers in sdvx? lol

To be fair, they make up for it by overcharting the fuck out of their songs.

Ohrami wrote:

Or just leave the game the way it is, as the game that people have played for sometimes nearly 10 years

It doesn't make sense to me to change a fundamental gameplay aspect of a game like this. When it comes to how the game is actually played, it should stay the same forever. Adding annoying sounds when you pause or type isn't a big deal, but this change is.

I can pretty much guarantee that doing well in many currently ranked maps will become a test of retrying to hit those awkward (but still accurately timed) sliders. This won't be enjoyable for anyone. Newer maps would try to avoid this by either not mapping music that's complex, or by adding breaks or simply mapping simpler parts of the music's background. This is yet another reason why I consider the change unwelcome.

Well, Charles445 complained about sliders not being useable to indicate timing changes anymore, so that's what I was reacting to. I still have mixed opinions over the new system altogether.

Few things from my side as a player who enjoy slider maps, enjoy gimmick maps and prefer to still play them:

After long, i mean long time of playing i noticed that you can cleary hear when you hit slider too early / too late, you don't even need to watch your hiterror bar to see that you hitted in 50 points window but retarded slider leniency still gives you 300 (like what the fuck?! pls?!). Getting used to hitting sliders correctly is an art at some points, especially on gimmick maps like Fort, Pritia, HW, Hanzer, fanzhen and more. It isn't easy but also it isn't impossible.

Quoting @peppy - rrtyui still have SS on big black with Score V2 system.
Sorry but if someone will tell me that "bik blak is ez sliderz, its not an example" then lmfao.
WWW HR Pluto is 1 x 100 iirc from one person who analyzed replay.
I can bet right now that players who are actually pretty much universal in matter of gameplay and know "how-to osu!" will not even notice anything besides lower score.

Complains about mapping - i disagree with whole point of "sliders + variable bpm". If someone is experienced enough - he will notice that bpm change can occur, sliderspeed is different and will control his movement properly as far as it's not 0.1 SV long slider in middle of 280 bpm death metal "mazzerin type" song which is like... unrankable at some point? Something like this.

From long time people are complaining about slider dominated maps being not worth any pp - now peppy gives you opportunity to get juicy 400-500pp from Scarlet Rose and other maps like that in exchange for your skillset. If you ask me - VERY FAIR trade. Being better at this game for more pp from slider dominated maps? Fine, pls map more slider maps.

I am not closed for this innovation, more, i cannot wait for it.
I fully support implementing Score V2 into global ranking with my all 4 limbs (and my wallet too).