Hey guys, as you might know if you're into beatgames, without offense intended Mania derailed HUGELY since its beta stage into a mix of DDR with the mindset of mapping of Osu! for the not experienced and newly introduced into what we know as Beatgame...

I mean, without doubt mania is kinda good, but it had an abysmal potential to become a huge thing for beatgames, from a community driven point of view with guidance of us, the guys that play from the beginning, like Beatmania, O2Jam, DJMax or whatever...

I'll state the flaws of the current state of Osu!Mania and I'll like you to discuss to try to push this back into the right way, since it's been looong derailed into an abomination that morphed an impecable rhythm game system into something worse that Guitar Hero in terms of gameplay quality...

1st: Deviation on the community comprehension about what is a good chart, since too many people just started with Osu! automated conversions and they think they're la creme de la creme and can't appreciate the beauty of a GOOD CHART. (Also a bad rank system for beatmaps which enforces you to use annoying keysounds, treating mania like a son of Standard that can't broke the relation with its father...)

2nd: Not intuitive speed system: What is that speed system about? There's a STANDARD and it's multiplicatives of BPM, why not use it? It transfers from every game to another one, and you don't need to learn a new scale of speeds just for 1 game. This is retarded, really.

3rd: Developers not hearing the competitive players, and being stubborn. This sucks, really... You should start changing this about mania, you ripped off of other beatgames, and you dissappoint the community they're targeted to, I mean, you're just throwing us off the community because we can't tolerate this, and then you're making a whole new concept about something you stole to try and make it different from the originals in a way that is unhealthy to the players that should drive the community forward.

You should USE the experienced players to help fix this with their opinions and start making a reboot of Mania, I'd suggest to warn a month before the reboot and just delete all conversions, change the rank rules to be able to not use keysounds and have all keys at the same time, regardless of Key Rollover issues...

Then teach the new community with us to appreciate what makes a chart good, and what makes a chart crap, and why autoconverted Standard maps are not intuitive, not rhythmic in the way it is intended and start moving this forward.

Also another BIG THING that really scares me is the new players that think that the spacebar is awkward and won't ever try to get good at 5k or 7k...

What are your thoughts about this guys? Please leave a comment, and help mania grow into something good.

DJKero wrote:

1st: Deviation on the community comprehension about what is a good chart, since too many people just started with Osu! automated conversions and they think they're la creme de la creme and can't appreciate the beauty of a GOOD CHART. (Also a bad rank system for beatmaps which enforces you to use annoying keysounds, treating mania like a son of Standard that can't broke the relation with its father...)

this hardly will happen in any point. If I understood the first sentence correctly you want to try to get people rid off from converts (?) and play authentic mania beatmaps, right? You won't achieve this because this pretty much happens in Taiko for years, the number isn't big but there are enough which starts with converts instead of Taiko sets - and we have more than enough lower difficulties to offer (Kantan-Muzukashii aka Easy-Hard). You can lead them to the right ones tho.

And about the point with annoying keysounds: I am not really familiar with the concept behind hitsounding and Mania but I believe the reason is that we want a 'feedback' if you tap, that's why stuff like inaudible hitobjects in other modes are unrankable in most cases. Maybe I got you wrong here.

since osu!mania has low standard of map.. but the mapper do not want to improve orz

also for osu!mania dev, he maybe kinda busy? because sometime he pops up at #osumania and ask player about current state of osu!mania
but yeah, long time ago..

Stefan wrote:

DJKero wrote:

1st: Deviation on the community comprehension about what is a good chart, since too many people just started with Osu! automated conversions and they think they're la creme de la creme and can't appreciate the beauty of a GOOD CHART. (Also a bad rank system for beatmaps which enforces you to use annoying keysounds, treating mania like a son of Standard that can't broke the relation with its father...)

this hardly will happen in any point. If I understood the first sentence correctly you want to try to get people rid off from converts (?) and play authentic mania beatmaps, right? You won't achieve this because this pretty much happens in Taiko for years, the number isn't big but there are enough which starts with converts instead of Taiko sets - and we have more than enough lower difficulties to offer (Kantan-Muzukashii aka Easy-Hard). You can lead them to the right ones tho.

And about the point with annoying keysounds: I am not really familiar with the concept behind hitsounding and Mania but I believe the reason is that we want a 'feedback' if you tap, that's why stuff like inaudible hitobjects in other modes are unrankable in most cases. Maybe I got you wrong here.

Well, keyboards already give enough feedback, just don't pump up the volume like crazy, and don't use headphones if you can, actually the click sound from the keyboard or button or whatever you use its hugely important, and you don't need a annoying KRIII or DONNN like in Taiko because it's not part of the essence of the game... (I love Don and Kat btw... it's just that Mania is OTHER GAME.)

DJKero wrote:

2nd: Not intuitive speed system: What is that speed system about? There's a STANDARD and it's multiplicatives of BPM, why not use it? It transfers from every game to another one, and you don't need to learn a new scale of speeds just for 1 game.

Uhh... But you can just disable bpm scaling to have a fixed constant scroll speed on every map. As a mania player you should know about that.

imo you are really exaggerating, mania could use some fixes like star rating, but there is literally no one who can work on it.

I thought I had the chance to read something good as to why osu!mania could be a lot better than it is (this is a thought I share, although I am pretty much an osu!mania original player, I've played about all the other big VSRGs around, and learnt their pros and cons) but my hopes fell right down through the ground to the other side of the universe. Yes I am most likely biased towards what the game has become over those 3 years but heh what can I do.

Everything that you've stated are arguments from someone who's been dead for at least one year and a ha- wait that's pretty much the case here.

From here on everything that I'm writing reflects my own personal opinion and how I view the game in its current state.

1st: Deviation on the community comprehension about what is a good chart, since too many people just started with Osu! automated conversions and they think they're la creme de la creme and can't appreciate the beauty of a GOOD CHART. (Also a bad rank system for beatmaps which enforces you to use annoying keysounds, treating mania like a son of Standard that can't broke the relation with its father...)

That was true one or two years ago. The overall quality of beatmaps has raised since then, and while I'm not saying they're state-of-the-art works, they're still overall better, although unfortunately quite a lot of them if not most are as generic as can be - and I'm considering both 4K and 7K here, as the other keymodes are not represented enough to have a clear view at what they can be or should be here on osu!. However I still believe mapping has room for improvement, especially as of late, but that's just my feeling on the matter.
Also, believe it or not but hitsounding is a lot less of a hassle than it used to be at some point. Heck, all you have to do is to add a few bass/drum hitsounds on their respective sounds in a map and that does the trick. Doesn't take more than like 20 to 30 minutes on your average mapset content with the hitsound copier. I have to agree hitsounding should be unnecessary, but quite honestly for as much as I care this is the part I'm the least bothered about when trying to go for rank.

2nd: Not intuitive speed system: What is that speed system about? There's a STANDARD and it's multiplicatives of BPM, why not use it? It transfers from every game to another one, and you don't need to learn a new scale of speeds just for 1 game. This is retarded, really.

the fuc- in what way is this a major flaw, especially when you can choose a fixed speed that's saved for every single beatmap in existence, and if that's not enough you can even save a specific speed for a specific beatmaps

3rd: Developers not hearing the competitive players, and being stubborn. This sucks, really... You should start changing this about mania, you ripped off of other beatgames, and you dissappoint the community they're targeted to, I mean, you're just throwing us off the community because we can't tolerate this, and then you're making a whole new concept about something you stole to try and make it different from the originals in a way that is unhealthy to the players that should drive the community forward.

Now this is a point I'd feel inclined to agree with. I would not be as agressive as you are, most likely because I've been around pretty much since the beginning of osu!mania and got accustomed with how things tend to work generally speaking, but yes. Countless times have the voices of actual experienced VSRG players been ignored and honestly that's a shame because everything that's been implemented around osu!mania is golden is terms of accessibility and ease of use, and I have yet to see such a big community coming together and sharing stuff as easily anywhere else. However I really wish the gameplay - that is the goddamn core of the gamemode - was less 'casualized' and was overall harder (think anti-spam measures, LNs that should not be recovered when missed, ability to control accurately how tight the timing windows are and how much HP you lose or recover among a lot of other things). And then there is the scoring system that is absolute shit garbage, and Star Rating that is more often than not inaccurate as fuck.

You should USE the experienced players to help fix this with their opinions and start making a reboot of Mania, I'd suggest to warn a month before the reboot and just delete all conversions, change the rank rules to be able to not use keysounds and have all keys at the same time, regardless of Key Rollover issues...

Then teach the new community with us to appreciate what makes a chart good, and what makes a chart crap, and why autoconverted Standard maps are not intuitive, not rhythmic in the way it is intended and start moving this forward.

Yes, yes, yes, 7 key presses allowed at least for the higher end of maps difficulty-wise. I can live with hitsounds for the reasons stated above however but I'd gladly welcome the removal of hitsounds being an absolute must if going for rank. Can't argue with the last point, it can't be any truer.

Also another BIG THING that really scares me is the new players that think that the spacebar is awkward and won't ever try to get good at 5k or 7k...

That is their problem. Either you're curious and willing to explore other ways to play osu!mania, either you stick to what you think you can do. You cannot force people to play other keymodes if they don't want to. I do think that there was a way to clearly indicate that 4K and 7K (and any other keymodes, really) are worlds apart in terms of gameplay - not to mention the end game content is very different and clearly focus on different skillsets - and shouldn't prevent you to play one or the other... Basically the issue here is to have a way to tell new players that 4K is this, 7K is that, and there are mania-specific maps, drop the autoconverts.


Ok all of that being said, I'd be very interested in getting to read the opinion of someone who's been playing VSRGs for ages (since way back o!m) and that's been here since the beginning of o!m and have been an active member of the community.

but guys


nothing will change
And you know it

everything is so subjectively incorrect/correct that we'll be going in a loop

wuds a good map lmao

There are like 100000 factors to define what's a "good map" that i've heard from people god damn i wanna kill myself every time someone uses subjective terms like this but here there are:

- Difficulty wise is consistent
- Increment in difficulty is not too rash

- Good song

- Patterns play well to add some funs
- Patterns don't play that well to add difficulty

- SVs that deliberately make you memorize them
- SVs that are sightreadable

- GOD FUCKING LNS
- GOD FUCKING BMS

- FUCKING LNS IN MY 4K
- Oh nice that's a new mapping style, interesting

- FUCKING LNS IN MY 9K
- Oh nice that's a new mapping style, interesting

- Map looks really cool, so it's a good nice map
- Map plays nice, so it's a nice good map

- wow these tv sizes
- wow these long songs

- do some really fancy shit to make it look very cool
- pls don't do fancy shit i want my pp

- haha meme songs HILARIOUS
- pls don't do memes

- pls make the map fc-able and easy ( i want my pp )
- haha nice pattern dude, i really like those vibro with LNs, fitting to the song

- and
- so
- on

define the appropriate balance to all these factors to churn out a "good map" then the project can start by forcing education on every single player on what is a good map, no one knows exactly where that line falls under in all of these categories, this is such a big gray area that it is might as well left undefined than that defined.

but as of now if you really want to make a map that is well made for a certain group of people you'll be showing your ass to the other side of the community, so there's that.

basically i think your 1st point isn't even basing off a very obvious problem we have now lmao

autoconverts are necessary for beginners (hint: a reason why the minimum star rating for ranking a spread is 2* and not 1* :p)

Elementaires wrote:

but guys


nothing will change
And you know it

Just avoid posting here if you agree with this opinion, it doesn't help nor contribute to the discussion here.

Stefan wrote:

Elementaires wrote:

but guys


nothing will change
And you know it

Just avoid posting here if you agree with this opinion, it doesn't help nor contribute to the discussion here.

Sorry about this;

the osu!mania "problems" has been discussed since years and no one really care, I doubt there will be changes in a near future... The problems were pointed out many many times.. and "solutions" were posted by many osu!mania users... the features and requests made by us osumania users arent heard.

Where is the noodle mod that were promised years ago?
Why HT mod still there?
Why beginners have to play autoconverted maps?

Of course nothing is perfect but please i think osumania really need a reset overall..

Where is Blaizer? He should be able to fix at least a couple of the things mentioned. Unless it got lost in the commit history. Then fuck help us all :\

That beginners play converts is something which cannot be resolved that simply due multiple reasons:

1. The choices of songs per mode is the most critical point, obviously you don't have that much varierty in Mania compared to Standard but at least there is still the possibility to play these Standard converts in Mania.
2. They do not bother about the awful convertion of Standard difficulties in Mania, just because they don't know it.
3. Therefore, if they see they can play their absolute favorite song in osu!, why should they bother if converts sucks? They enjoy playing their fav songs.
4. And there is still the chance that they rather play converts than real Mania difficulties despite of existing Mania Mapsets for the same song.

Sure, given these players are not aiming to get better/are being very casual about it. I firmly believe most of the playerbase strives to improve, albeit each player goes at their own pace, which is why there should at least be a notice that says there are mania-specific maps - which are key to get better, no matter what - and the converts, and that goes also for Taiko I believe (not sure whether CtB has this concern since I keep hearing that stf converts well into this mode).

The algorithm for autoconvert generation can at least be improved. It doesn't need to follow the map so long it's better than what it currently spits out. Players like Aqo came up with their own ways of generating beatmap of much higher quality.

PyaKura wrote:

I thought I had the chance to read something good as to why osu!mania could be a lot better than it is (this is a thought I share, although I am pretty much an osu!mania original player, I've played about all the other big VSRGs around, and learnt their pros and cons) but my hopes fell right down through the ground to the other side of the universe. Yes I am most likely biased towards what the game has become over those 3 years but heh what can I do.

Everything that you've stated are arguments from someone who's been dead for at least one year and a ha- wait that's pretty much the case here.

From here on everything that I'm writing reflects my own personal opinion and how I view the game in its current state.

1st: Deviation on the community comprehension about what is a good chart, since too many people just started with Osu! automated conversions and they think they're la creme de la creme and can't appreciate the beauty of a GOOD CHART. (Also a bad rank system for beatmaps which enforces you to use annoying keysounds, treating mania like a son of Standard that can't broke the relation with its father...)

That was true one or two years ago. The overall quality of beatmaps has raised since then, and while I'm not saying they're state-of-the-art works, they're still overall better, although unfortunately quite a lot of them if not most are as generic as can be - and I'm considering both 4K and 7K here, as the other keymodes are not represented enough to have a clear view at what they can be or should be here on osu!. However I still believe mapping has room for improvement, especially as of late, but that's just my feeling on the matter.
Also, believe it or not but hitsounding is a lot less of a hassle than it used to be at some point. Heck, all you have to do is to add a few bass/drum hitsounds on their respective sounds in a map and that does the trick. Doesn't take more than like 20 to 30 minutes on your average mapset content with the hitsound copier. I have to agree hitsounding should be unnecessary, but quite honestly for as much as I care this is the part I'm the least bothered about when trying to go for rank.

2nd: Not intuitive speed system: What is that speed system about? There's a STANDARD and it's multiplicatives of BPM, why not use it? It transfers from every game to another one, and you don't need to learn a new scale of speeds just for 1 game. This is retarded, really.

the fuc- in what way is this a major flaw, especially when you can choose a fixed speed that's saved for every single beatmap in existence, and if that's not enough you can even save a specific speed for a specific beatmaps

3rd: Developers not hearing the competitive players, and being stubborn. This sucks, really... You should start changing this about mania, you ripped off of other beatgames, and you dissappoint the community they're targeted to, I mean, you're just throwing us off the community because we can't tolerate this, and then you're making a whole new concept about something you stole to try and make it different from the originals in a way that is unhealthy to the players that should drive the community forward.

Now this is a point I'd feel inclined to agree with. I would not be as agressive as you are, most likely because I've been around pretty much since the beginning of osu!mania and got accustomed with how things tend to work generally speaking, but yes. Countless times have the voices of actual experienced VSRG players been ignored and honestly that's a shame because everything that's been implemented around osu!mania is golden is terms of accessibility and ease of use, and I have yet to see such a big community coming together and sharing stuff as easily anywhere else. However I really wish the gameplay - that is the goddamn core of the gamemode - was less 'casualized' and was overall harder (think anti-spam measures, LNs that should not be recovered when missed, ability to control accurately how tight the timing windows are and how much HP you lose or recover among a lot of other things). And then there is the scoring system that is absolute shit garbage, and Star Rating that is more often than not inaccurate as fuck.

You should USE the experienced players to help fix this with their opinions and start making a reboot of Mania, I'd suggest to warn a month before the reboot and just delete all conversions, change the rank rules to be able to not use keysounds and have all keys at the same time, regardless of Key Rollover issues...

Then teach the new community with us to appreciate what makes a chart good, and what makes a chart crap, and why autoconverted Standard maps are not intuitive, not rhythmic in the way it is intended and start moving this forward.

Yes, yes, yes, 7 key presses allowed at least for the higher end of maps difficulty-wise. I can live with hitsounds for the reasons stated above however but I'd gladly welcome the removal of hitsounds being an absolute must if going for rank. Can't argue with the last point, it can't be any truer.

Also another BIG THING that really scares me is the new players that think that the spacebar is awkward and won't ever try to get good at 5k or 7k...

That is their problem. Either you're curious and willing to explore other ways to play osu!mania, either you stick to what you think you can do. You cannot force people to play other keymodes if they don't want to. I do think that there was a way to clearly indicate that 4K and 7K (and any other keymodes, really) are worlds apart in terms of gameplay - not to mention the end game content is very different and clearly focus on different skillsets - and shouldn't prevent you to play one or the other... Basically the issue here is to have a way to tell new players that 4K is this, 7K is that, and there are mania-specific maps, drop the autoconverts.


Ok all of that being said, I'd be very interested in getting to read the opinion of someone who's been playing VSRGs for ages (since way back o!m) and that's been here since the beginning of o!m and have been an active member of the community.

Thanks for the reply.

Well, about the hitsound thing, its true that isn't hard to do it, but personally I don't like that, and the fact that if I turn hitsound volume to 0 in the game settings, when a map is REALLY KEYSOUNDED I hear just the background music or don't hear anything (yeah they're not too much but theres fully keysounded maps)

About the flaw in speeds, well, I would like to be able to manually adjust every speed without fixed, not being forced to use fixed because of the speed system sucks... You know...


About deleting autoconverts, that's one of the most important things I think osu!mania needs right now, because I've seen a map that was Mania Only, charted by a player and it was literally an handmade autoconvert.

Evening wrote:

everything is so subjectively incorrect/correct that we'll be going in a loop

wuds a good map lmao

There are like 100000 factors to define what's a "good map" that i've heard from people god damn i wanna kill myself every time someone uses subjective terms like this but here there are:

- Difficulty wise is consistent
- Increment in difficulty is not too rash

- Good song

- Patterns play well to add some funs
- Patterns don't play that well to add difficulty

- SVs that deliberately make you memorize them
- SVs that are sightreadable

- GOD FUCKING LNS
- GOD FUCKING BMS

- FUCKING LNS IN MY 4K
- Oh nice that's a new mapping style, interesting

- FUCKING LNS IN MY 9K
- Oh nice that's a new mapping style, interesting

- Map looks really cool, so it's a good nice map
- Map plays nice, so it's a nice good map

- wow these tv sizes
- wow these long songs

- do some really fancy shit to make it look very cool
- pls don't do fancy shit i want my pp

- haha meme songs HILARIOUS
- pls don't do memes

- pls make the map fc-able and easy ( i want my pp )
- haha nice pattern dude, i really like those vibro with LNs, fitting to the song

- and
- so
- on

define the appropriate balance to all these factors to churn out a "good map" then the project can start by forcing education on every single player on what is a good map, no one knows exactly where that line falls under in all of these categories, this is such a big gray area that it is might as well left undefined than that defined.

but as of now if you really want to make a map that is well made for a certain group of people you'll be showing your ass to the other side of the community, so there's that.

basically i think your 1st point isn't even basing off a very obvious problem we have now lmao

autoconverts are necessary for beginners (hint: a reason why the minimum star rating for ranking a spread is 2* and not 1* :p)

Though I agree on the many variables, I was talking in more simple terms, I mean follow the rhythm, don't spam LNs where they don't need to be in a normal map (not an O2 style, that's other thing) and usage of patterns... I mean basic notecharting, not too in depth...

Stefan wrote:

That beginners play converts is something which cannot be resolved that simply due multiple reasons:

1. The choices of songs per mode is the most critical point, obviously you don't have that much varierty in Mania compared to Standard but at least there is still the possibility to play these Standard converts in Mania.
2. They do not bother about the awful convertion of Standard difficulties in Mania, just because they don't know it.
3. Therefore, if they see they can play their absolute favorite song in osu!, why should they bother if converts sucks? They enjoy playing their fav songs.
4. And there is still the chance that they rather play converts than real Mania difficulties despite of existing Mania Mapsets for the same song.

I don't agree, we should try to make it wider and do difficulties for beginners.

Also they shouldn't be exposed to something that's not well done since we already have a lot more maps than in the start and they cause misinformation and conformism.

If they want to play their favourite song in osu! standard, they could make a request to someone to map it onto mania or learn to map themselves, autoconverts were a patch to the map catalog of mania in the start, I don't think they're any good to the mode. The difference is way too high.

If they rather play converts instead of mania-only, that's a serious problem that leaving autoconverts for too long made to the community.

abraker wrote:

The algorithm for autoconvert generation can at least be improved. It doesn't need to follow the map so long it's better than what it currently spits out. Players like Aqo came up with their own ways of generating beatmap of much higher quality.

I really think that autoconverts were a temporary patch that needed to be removed in a certain time, firmly believe that we don't need them anymore.

Here's what abraker was talking about. Those autogenerated maps are pretty darn good, and I am not exaggerating when I say they're better than most of our ranked maps.

PyaKura wrote:

Here's what abraker was talking about. Those autogenerated maps are pretty darn good, and I am not exaggerating when I say they're better than most of our ranked maps.

Well, kinda ok. But I don't think we need autoconverts from anywhere.

If we needed something maybe was o2jam converts but due to copyright they've said that we can't have them.