Have you ever tried one vs a mech keyboard in osu?ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Lack of metal contacts means there is no switch bouncing, no contact to wear out, no slight changes in friction from the contact, and a much higher life expectation. I also hear there's a way to adjust the actuation point on flaretech's switches.
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What about this mechanical keyboard??
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ZenithPhantasm
I will when I get my hands on one. They're not exactly easy to buy. I could get the Bloody BB740A but I dont want to because it looks stupid and gaudy looking. I'll wait until Flaretech keyboards are available or when A4Tech decides to sell the Bloody B700A in US.Raniemi wrote:
Have you ever tried one vs a mech keyboard in osu?ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Lack of metal contacts means there is no switch bouncing, no contact to wear out, no slight changes in friction from the contact, and a much higher life expectation. I also hear there's a way to adjust the actuation point on flaretech's switches.
Yosumin wrote:
Have you been hired by A4TECH?
I'm going to make this a meme or die trying...
ZenithPhantasm
No, he just likes to repeat things he reads on the interwebs. If one believed everything razer told them then razer products would seem amazing too.Raniemi wrote:
Have you ever tried one vs a mech keyboard in osu?ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Lack of metal contacts means there is no switch bouncing, no contact to wear out, no slight changes in friction from the contact, and a much higher life expectation. I also hear there's a way to adjust the actuation point on flaretech's switches.
ZenithPhantasm
Optical switches have less parts to break and a completely pure signal free of noise. This means more reliability over time and no post processing needed to clean up the signal.
Mechanical switch signal bounce; noisy signal, degrades as the physical condition of the contact deteriorates
http://puu.sh/mJzVX/b4ed35b4d7.png
Optical switch signal no bounce; clean robust signal, doesn't degrade with use
http://puu.sh/mJzUy/c8395a9ea6.png
Edit: No clue why the pictures aren't loading lol
Mechanical switch signal bounce; noisy signal, degrades as the physical condition of the contact deteriorates
http://puu.sh/mJzVX/b4ed35b4d7.png
Optical switch signal no bounce; clean robust signal, doesn't degrade with use
http://puu.sh/mJzUy/c8395a9ea6.png
Edit: No clue why the pictures aren't loading lol
:O I didn't expect that response.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Fuck that fuck you
Optical Mouse > Ball Sensor Mouse, therefore Optical Switch > Mech Keyboards
ZenithPhantasm
[ ] Fix brain
dont believe him guis his brain is broken!!!
razer kb is best !!!1111
dont believe him guis his brain is broken!!!
razer kb is best !!!1111
Kafein_old_1
Except, you know, the laser and the sensor, which are both more complex and more fragile than anything in a mechanical keyswitch. And while it's true that you don't need to account for contact bouncing, you still need some amount of "post-processing" to convert the optical signal into an electrical one. It may be an order of magnitude smaller, but the impact of contact bouncing is already so small as to be irrelevant at multi-millisecond timescales.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
less parts to break
Membrane to mech is a noticeable difference. Mech to optical would barely be quantifiable.
ZenithPhantasm
Most highend mechs take 5ms to debounce (with Kailh switches taking alot more). Optical take less than 1ms to convert it into a digital signal. In an optical switch there's no contacts to break so its actually less complex than the mech.Narrill wrote:
Except, you know, the laser and the sensor, which are both more complex and more fragile than anything in a mechanical keyswitch. And while it's true that you don't need to account for contact bouncing, you still need some amount of "post-processing" to convert the optical signal into an electrical one. It may be an order of magnitude smaller, but the impact of contact bouncing is already so small as to be irrelevant at multi-millisecond timescales.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
less parts to break
Membrane to mech is a noticeable difference. Mech to optical would barely be quantifiable.
Mech: Electronics->Switch housing+spring->Contact
Optical: Electronics->Switch housing+spring
<insert-Narrill-is-right-meme-here>Narrill wrote:
Except, you know, the laser and the sensor, which are both more complex and more fragile than anything in a mechanical keyswitch. And while it's true that you don't need to account for contact bouncing, you still need some amount of "post-processing" to convert the optical signal into an electrical one. It may be an order of magnitude smaller, but the impact of contact bouncing is already so small as to be irrelevant at multi-millisecond timescales.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
less parts to break
Membrane to mech is a noticeable difference. Mech to optical would barely be quantifiable.
Optical keyboard is unnecessary for osu.
You can play osu without sound but you can't play it without AIMKukiMonster wrote:
Optical keyboard is unnecessary for osu.
^w0t
YOU CAN PLAY OSU WITHOUT SOUND BUT IF YOU HAD NO DEVICE TO AIM WITH YOU COULDN'T HIT ANY CIRCLE
ZenithPhantasm
I can measure it with an oscillimeter therefore his point is invalid.chainpullz wrote:
<insert-Narrill-is-right-meme-here>Narrill wrote:
Except, you know, the laser and the sensor, which are both more complex and more fragile than anything in a mechanical keyswitch. And while it's true that you don't need to account for contact bouncing, you still need some amount of "post-processing" to convert the optical signal into an electrical one. It may be an order of magnitude smaller, but the impact of contact bouncing is already so small as to be irrelevant at multi-millisecond timescales.
Membrane to mech is a noticeable difference. Mech to optical would barely be quantifiable.
Even if optical switches were more durable than cherry mech switches which has yet to be proven there is no reason to go for more durability. even for intense long term usage like osu! or other rhythm games people don't remotely reach 50miillion key strokes after numerous years of playtime. Even Doomsday, after 8 years of playtime and 230k plays didn't reach 50million hits. Now considering people alternate for streams for the most part and switch their button layout every now and then there literally is no rational argument for even more durability than what Cherry guarantees as a minimum.
In terms of input lag I still don't have representative data of measurements and sadly A4tech's data is not to be trusted since the mix up actuation distance with total input lag after actuation and try to screw potential customers over.
Best keyboard at the moment on the whole market for red switch enthusiasts: Cherry MX Board 6.0
In terms of input lag I still don't have representative data of measurements and sadly A4tech's data is not to be trusted since the mix up actuation distance with total input lag after actuation and try to screw potential customers over.
Best keyboard at the moment on the whole market for red switch enthusiasts: Cherry MX Board 6.0
ZenithPhantasm
A4Tech measured it live with an oscillimeter. At first I was skeptical too but their data have already been reproduced by enthusiasts. The only mech atm that comes close to it is Logitech's Romer G keyboards. IMO Logitech and A4Tech are possibly the only manufacturers to care about latency. CoolerMaster is jumping on the bandwagon too so hopefully they could produce something that's affordable and low latency.
There seems to be a lot of newcomers entering the "gaming mechanical switch" arena this year. I'm really curious to see which one will come out on top.
Oh, and yes: The A4Tech optical switches have been tested on several occasions to be more responsive than other keyboards. And plenty of these super-responsive switches that companies are coming out with have been of the linear variety, so I wouldn't rule out other possibilities just yet.
Oh, and yes: The A4Tech optical switches have been tested on several occasions to be more responsive than other keyboards. And plenty of these super-responsive switches that companies are coming out with have been of the linear variety, so I wouldn't rule out other possibilities just yet.
ZenithPhantasm
Latency really doesn't matter whatsoever as long as it doesn't fluctuate.
^This, but only to a point. The brain is hardwired to compensate for latency (your eyes and ears will always be milliseconds ahead of the rest of your body, even if you disregard reaction times), but hardware latency can effectively decouple your physical actions from what is happening on screen. If you're Cookiezi, you'll have no problems getting used to the extra delay in a game like osu! 727pp using Razer Greens, what, but every little bit will definitely make a difference in terms of how timing feels (especially if you play by ear without headphones).Saphirshroom wrote:
Latency really doesn't matter whatsoever as long as it doesn't fluctuate.
In terms of fluctuation though: That can all be attributed by your keyboard's polling rate and your PC's/keyboard's ability to keep it stable.
EDIT: whoops new page
as far as i know he uses browns for osu.. not sure about that play but ye don't mind me just keep up your discussionYayMii wrote:
If you're Cookiezi, you'll have no problems getting used to the extra delay 727pp using Razer Greens, what
He switches between a QuickFire Rapid-i (MX Browns) and a BlackWidow Chroma (Razer Greens) when playing, and you can see which keyboard he's using on-camera.KanoSet wrote:
as far as i know he uses browns for osu.. not sure about that play but ye don't mind me just keep up your discussion
i didn't watch a lot of his plays but in every video i did it was the coolermaster keyboard so i assumed he don't use it -blackwindow - for osu cuz y'know.. razer
High sensitivity to latency is mainly something that you learn by experience. I like to think of it as some sort of keyboard-transmitted disease.
I can measure the delay between the screen and my eyes to be \geq the speed of light. Doesn't mean it's not negligible.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
I can measure it with an oscillimeter therefore his point is invalid.
ZenithPhantasm
The difference between a Razer Kailh Switch kb and an A4Tech Optical/Logitech Romer G kb is ~30ms. Im pretty sure its noticeable unless you have some form of neurological deficiency and very real.chainpullz wrote:
I can measure the delay between the screen and my eyes to be \geq the speed of light. Doesn't mean it's not negligible.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
I can measure it with an oscillimeter therefore his point is invalid.
I mean, just use Universal offset to negate it. That's exactly what it's for.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Depends on how sensitive you are to latency.
No, that's not what it's for. The purpose of Universal Offset is to compensate for desynchronization between hitsounds and the music.Saphirshroom wrote:
I mean, just use Universal offset to negate it. That's exactly what it's for.
I could hear no difference in universal offset from 0 ms to 40ms to 70 ms.
So we are comparing the shittiest of mech keyboards to an optical keyboard. Hard to see the bias here.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
The difference between a Razer Kailh Switch kb and an A4Tech Optical/Logitech Romer G kb is ~30ms. Im pretty sure its noticeable unless you have some form of neurological deficiency and very real.chainpullz wrote:
I can measure the delay between the screen and my eyes to be \geq the speed of light. Doesn't mean it's not negligible.
Go into Edit mode, open up a song, go to the Timing tab, and hit Play. It should become obvious as to what the Universal Offset does, especially if you slow down the playback.Khelly wrote:
I could hear no difference in universal offset from 0 ms to 40ms to 70 ms.
You adjust Universal Offset by tapping to the beat to see by how much you're off and then correct the offset appropriately; at least that's the recommended method on the wiki. If you go by that method, you'll compensate any keyboard latency.YayMii wrote:
No, that's not what it's for. The purpose of Universal Offset is to compensate for desynchronization between hitsounds and the music.Saphirshroom wrote:
I mean, just use Universal offset to negate it. That's exactly what it's for.