(format copied from the Taiko Nominator Association announcement, thanks oji)



Hello everyone!

I'd like to announce the creation of a Team Queue to unify the mappers and modders of a CTB community that is severely lacking currently. After some discussion, many of us felt like it was time to make a change, and creating this queue should be able to push the highest quality mapsets quicker to rank, as well as help new mappers and modders improve their overall quality.







Thank you for your time!

- Ascendance

How neat is that

-itsy_v2- wrote:

How neat is that

so neat

Pretty neat/10

Have my sign of approval

Ascendance wrote:

-itsy_v2- wrote:

How neat is that

so neat

https://youtu.be/sMx0Xb5oHUs?list=PLlMs ... fLpJ&t=468

This does look like a nice idea though, but I'd like to see how things develop and who you can get on board before committing to anything. I'd definitely be willing to help out in some capacity providing I can still mod stuff from outside the queue (since I mod Std as well, I'd need to have some arrangement here).

Failing that I could still help out in some advisory capacity or as a neutral third-party, but that can be discussed later.

Best of luck!

JBHyperion wrote:

Ascendance wrote:

so neat

https://youtu.be/sMx0Xb5oHUs?list=PLlMs ... fLpJ&t=468

This does look like a nice idea though, but I'd like to see how things develop and who you can get on board before committing to anything. I'd definitely be willing to help out in some capacity providing I can still mod stuff from outside the queue (since I mod Std as well, I'd need to have some arrangement here).

Failing that I could still help out in some advisory capacity or as a neutral third-party, but that can be discussed later.

Best of luck!

Yeah, as you mod both Std and CTB, this queue would only apply to CTB, therefore complete freedom for standard <:

Hope you'll be able to commit after we establish more of a solid plan for this team and hopefully we can get the ball rolling with this!

Ah, nice to see that ctb is doing it now, too. Wish you good luck with it. If you need some help you can contact me, since we are doing this with the TNA since 3 months and encountered / solved some issues already. I can also give you a trello-board if needed for a better and easier organization which you can change as you like to. I made a template for osu!mania, too. Oh, and the flowchart might need an addition for cases which get DQ'd (forgot to add it before).

Talking about flowchart: It's made by me and visualized by Loctav :p

Really glad you did not take along the part where the BNs must be in the queue, as that is my biggest peeve from the TNA as "participating BNs are not allowed to take requests outside of the shared queue."

That's actually the consequence of this neonat, as this should prevent the system to fail within a short time. The Team and its
existence depends of the members. If they take too many requests outside the queue, it can easily happen that they become unintentionally careless and at the end stressed as well (which happened in Taiko at least). Additional to this, the more modders you take the bigger the team becomes, which is dangerous, as people might relay to each other too much which can lead to a failure in organization.

Though, it also depends of the people. Anyway, I wanted to mention this at least as I experienced these things always in previous teams. That's what the system is build on.

I too was a bit turned off by the "BNs can't take requests from outside the queue" idea when I first read about the TNA announcement, but I do understand why it's necessary.

Perhaps you can run a quota system, where BNs could agree to mod a certain number or percentage of maps from the queue per month, or at the very least "prioritize" mapsets that the team members vote is ready for a BN check? This could work like:

1. Should mod at least <x> maps per month from the team queue, or
2. At least <y>% of the mods done that month must be from the team queue, or
3. Priority should be given to maps deemed "ready" by the team (not sure how this could be reliably and fairly implemented though)

Working out the specifics above all depends on how many people you can get on board and how co-ordinated you can run the team, since more modders working together will push maps towards ranking quicker.

Yeah, that's how TNA works since the beginning. Depending on the number of available members, we decide how many maps are accepted and thus, how many maps must be ranked within a week. Though, this quota isn't absolute either, as the TNA isn't about forcing the members but deciding upon agreement how much could / can be done. And maps priority is decided by votes anyway.

Maybe we should wait for a word from the organizer in ctb.

Maybe I worded it too strongly, wasn't my intention to seem too negative. Having a team to work on this is nice, having the discipline within it is necessary too for it to work. But what I believe is it shouldn't gather too many, or all the BNs/QATs, I feel that makes it more limiting. Have a balance of those in and out of the team, so there are 'free' (?) people whom those unable to reach plan A (which is get their map into the queue) have something they could go for. That's just how I feel I guess, not to have too large a group handling matters.

At the moment I think you are absolutely right, neonat. That's one of the reason why for example Raiden and tasuke aren't in the Team yet. I noticed in this way that it is very well balanced having a team but also outstanding people.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Ah, nice to see that ctb is doing it now, too. Wish you good luck with it. If you need some help you can contact me, since we are doing this with the TNA since 3 months and encountered / solved some issues already. I can also give you a trello-board if needed for a better and easier organization which you can change as you like to. I made a template for osu!mania, too. Oh, and the flowchart might need an addition for cases which get DQ'd (forgot to add it before).

Talking about flowchart: It's made by me and visualized by Loctav :p

Hi onosakihito ^^ I'm glad you're willing to help out! I would love the trello board if you are available to do it, it seems like it could help us out a lot, considering we were about to use something like google docs or something.

A question I have quickly, what do you guys do about submitting maps from members of the queue into it? More like, what is the process to make sure nothing is unfair about the staff maps?

I think as long as a member mods every set in this team, they should be free to do anything else without any % and number restriction. For a fast example, if there is 10 map in the team and I already modded all, I can mod another 20-30 if I want from anyone.

Actually I already planned to do something like this, (I mentioned it somewhere) but never got enough time to work it out. Sadly.

Kurokami wrote:

I think as long as a member mods every set in this team, they should be free to do anything else without any % and number restriction. For a fast example, if there is 10 map in the team and I already modded all, I can mod another 20-30 if I want from anyone.

TNA opens a new cycle once a week iirc, so if there are 10 sets in the queue each week (as per your example), the base minimum would be to mod all 10 of those, regardless of drain time/difficulty/input required by modders? I honestly don't see that happening, most CtB modders are doing a good job right now if they can put out 10 quality mods a month lol.

Also, how would you factor in people's modding experience/abilities/preferences? Some people only mod up to or below certain difficulties, some only mod marathons/TVSizes, etc.

There needs to be a compromise - yes, if you sign up to this team, I feel it should take some priority. As a mapper, if your map is accepted, it should receive a fair representation of mods from the group members relative to other accepted maps. However, asking all team members to mod everything sounds like an unrealistic goal unless you're hyper-critical on what meets the "accept" criteria.

Kurokami wrote:

I think as long as a member mods every set in this team, they should be free to do anything else without any % and number restriction. For a fast example, if there is 10 map in the team and I already modded all, I can mod another 20-30 if I want from anyone.

Actually I already planned to do something like this, (I mentioned it somewhere) but never got enough time to work it out. Sadly.

The thing is, the reason TNA works so well is because the majority of maps in their final stage of quality must go there. If it's done outside of the queue, doesn't it undermine the purpose of the queue itself? I feel like modding other mapsets that are in their first stages (having received few or no mods) is fine to do outside of the queue, but anything beyond that feels like it defeats the purpose. It's explained well by ono here:

OnosakiHito wrote:

That's actually the consequence of this neonat, as this should prevent the system to fail within a short time. The Team and its
existence depends of the members. If they take too many requests outside the queue, it can easily happen that they become unintentionally careless and at the end stressed as well (which happened in Taiko at least). Additional to this, the more modders you take the bigger the team becomes, which is dangerous, as people might relay to each other too much which can lead to a failure in organization.

Ascendance wrote:

SPOILER

Hi onosakihito ^^ I'm glad you're willing to help out! I would love the trello board if you are available to do it, it seems like it could help us out a lot, considering we were about to use something like google docs or something.

A question I have quickly, what do you guys do about submitting maps from members of the queue into it? More like, what is the process to make sure nothing is unfair about the staff maps?

That's something we weren't sure about at the beginning. I thought about special rounds for the members or adding their maps whenever they want, but at the end we decided that TNA members are allowed to queue up like every other user, just with the difference that they don't have to show any mods, as they are checking, modding and ranking maps every week already. So they actually have the same conditions like all other users. They are also not in the real benefit of knowing when the queue opens, since no one knows. Every week another member opens a round when s/he has time, so in most cases it isn't really predictable in what time it opens exactly. Though, it's not even a problem if they do so. It's just important that they don't overtake it. Oh, and maybe I should also add that in the first 2 months we didn't accept a single members map, as we wanted to gain the trust of the community in this matter and see how things go.

I will write you and your members a PM with the needed information and links.

JBHyperion wrote:

SPOILER

TNA opens a new cycle once a week iirc, so if there are 10 sets in the queue each week (as per your example), the base minimum would be to mod all 10 of those, regardless of drain time/difficulty/input required by modders? I honestly don't see that happening, most CtB modders are doing a good job right now if they can put out 10 quality mods a month lol.

Also, how would you factor in people's modding experience/abilities/preferences? Some people only mod up to or below certain difficulties, some only mod marathons/TVSizes, etc.

There needs to be a compromise - yes, if you sign up to this team, I feel it should take some priority. As a mapper, if your map is accepted, it should receive a fair representation of mods from the group members relative to other accepted maps. However, asking all team members to mod everything sounds like an unrealistic goal unless you're hyper-critical on what meets the "accept" criteria.

We had / have the same problem in Taiko. But now with the TNA, I think we are able to generate some more modding in the community and make the modding / ranking process for BNs more efficient and easier due to all the rules the queue has. And about the preferences modders have: That should be no problem with the voting-phase within the team. My team for example votes the beatmaps by quality first, and after that, they split the work to each other by considering what they want to mod.

I wish all members good luck with this!

Edit: It may be worth asking someone to pin this.

OnosakiHito wrote:

That's something we weren't sure about at the beginning. I thought about special rounds for the members or adding their maps whenever they want, but at the end we decided that TNA members are allowed to queue up like every other user, just with the difference that they don't have to show any mods, as they are checking, modding and ranking maps every week already. So they actually have the same conditions like all other users. They are also not in the real benefit of knowing when the queue opens, since no one knows. Every week another member opens a round when s/he has time, so in most cases it isn't really predictable in what time it opens exactly. Though, it's not even a problem if they do so. It's just important that they don't overtake it. Oh, and maybe I should also add that in the first 2 months we didn't accept a single members map, as we wanted to gain the trust of the community in this matter and see how things go.

I will write you and your members a PM with the needed information and links.

Seems like a good idea, to reject members' maps for some time to show that there is no favoritism in the maps we select. The idea of random times in opening rounds seems good too, for a more fair chance to everyone, rather than people camping at the queue at certain times each week.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

I wish all members good luck with this!

Edit: It may be worth asking someone to pin this.

Thanks for the support! I'll ask someone for a pin

It seems complex, but count me in. ;_;

How people can join to this group? You need to be an experienced modder? There is a minimun of kds?

-Sh1n1- wrote:

How people can join to this group? You need to be an experienced modder? There is a minimun of kds?

You should have a good amount of ctb player and modding experience as well as be active ~ We can quickly go over your mod history and reply soon

WildOne94 summoned me here. So here is my input.

First of all you say:

Ascendance wrote:

This Team Queue will be used to (...) enhance the quality of maps in our community.

Then again you say:

Ascendance wrote:

Maps placed into this queue will be placed into a list in which it will undergo a 3-Day voting phase. During this phase, the members of the team will quickly check/playtest the set and vote on whether or not the mapset will be accepted for further modding.

And:

Ascendance wrote:

(...)will hopefully bring forth new mappers, modders, and potentially even BN's!

That's all well and good, but you are hopefully aware that especially new mappers will not provide always the required quality in their beatmaps to let them progress their works to a qualified state. Here it is so much more important to take a look at especially their maps and hopefully not just decline their sets after the 3-Day voting phase. Especially these need more assistance than the usual mapper. You want to increase the CTB community, but if their maps will never be accepted they may give up with CTB sooner than you think. I hope this has been already considered.

Lately I wasn't really active in modding but I see some potential in this. If you don't mind, you can count me in as a member.

Sey wrote:

That's all well and good, but you are hopefully aware that especially new mappers will not provide always the required quality in their beatmaps to let them progress their works to a qualified state. Here it is so much more important to take a look at especially their maps and hopefully not just decline their sets after the 3-Day voting phase. Especially these need more assistance than the usual mapper. You want to increase the CTB community, but if their maps will never be accepted they may give up with CTB sooner than you think. I hope this has been already considered.

I might be wrong, but I think this is the purpose of the "Special Queue" - for mapsets that admittedly need work, but show promise. These maps are effectively "offered up" to the community as an alternative way to get their own maps accepted - by modding only 1 map in the Special Queue rather than any 2 "normal" mapsets. I'd hope that there would be fair chance given to new mappers using this route, but there might be something different in mind.

JBHyperion wrote:

Sey wrote:

That's all well and good, but you are hopefully aware that especially new mappers will not provide always the required quality in their beatmaps to let them progress their works to a qualified state. Here it is so much more important to take a look at especially their maps and hopefully not just decline their sets after the 3-Day voting phase. Especially these need more assistance than the usual mapper. You want to increase the CTB community, but if their maps will never be accepted they may give up with CTB sooner than you think. I hope this has been already considered.

I might be wrong, but I think this is the purpose of the "Special Queue" - for mapsets that admittedly need work, but show promise. These maps are effectively "offered up" to the community as an alternative way to get their own maps accepted - by modding only 1 map in the Special Queue rather than any 2 "normal" mapsets. I'd hope that there would be fair chance given to new mappers using this route, but there might be something different in mind.

The idea that something has to show promise doesn't help newer mappers get into the swing of things. Modding is meant to help people improve, with newer mappers if people were rejected because their first attempt isn't good enough, it gives a bad image and pushes people away.

Though I guess that is what the Modding Academy is for, though we tried to pull that back up and it didn't really work.

Maybe I didn't word that in the best way, though clearly the idea of something showing "promise" is subjective in itself. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I consider any map that's not complete random experimentation in the editor to have promise. I'm happy to take on new mappers and modders, I guess I feel like other people should do the same. We were all new mappers once, and someone had to make the effort to guide us and teach us - I feel it's the duty of the current generation of experienced mappers and modders to do the same.

Can someone maybe enlighten me (and others) then what exactly will be checked in the voting phase? As far as I understood every member will give their own feedback about whether they are planning to add the beatmap on the queues' list or not. Which criterias do you exactly look at? Was there an exchange amongst members what to look at or is everyone having their freedom in its own to choose? I hope you all did find a consensus about how to handle this.
If not, I am sure there will be a lot of different thinking during this phase. I would probably vote for newbies because increasing the amount of CTB mappers within the community was always my main goal since I joined the mapping culture. Others will definitely look more or merely at mapping quality, but neglect some other critierias.

Sey wrote:

Can someone maybe enlighten me (and others) then what exactly will be checked in the voting phase? As far as I understood every member will give their own feedback about whether they are planning to add the beatmap on the queues' list or not. Which criterias do you exactly look at? Was there an exchange amongst members what to look at or is everyone having their freedom in its own to choose? I hope you all did find a consensus about how to handle this.
If not, I am sure there will be a lot of different thinking during this phase. I would probably vote for newbies because increasing the amount of CTB mappers within the community was always my main goal since I joined the mapping culture. Others will definitely look more or merely at mapping quality, but neglect some other critierias.

Hey, I'll be here to answer the various questions. In advance, pardon any grammar or wording mistakes I make. During the voting phase, we have members playtest and do a very basic, minor check on the mapset. Every person in the queue has to look at each mapset, but if the queue accepts the set (50% or higher vote "yes") then the set is given to 2 people. After these two mods are applied, and the set looks clean enough, we send in a BN on our team to make the final check and maybe even get it on the road to qualify.

Sey wrote:

That's all well and good, but you are hopefully aware that especially new mappers will not provide always the required quality in their beatmaps to let them progress their works to a qualified state. Here it is so much more important to take a look at especially their maps and hopefully not just decline their sets after the 3-Day voting phase. Especially these need more assistance than the usual mapper. You want to increase the CTB community, but if their maps will never be accepted they may give up with CTB sooner than you think. I hope this has been already considered.

Lately I wasn't really active in modding but I see some potential in this. If you don't mind, you can count me in as a member.

Yep, the criteria we use does not require the mapset to be 100% perfect as JBH said. If a mapper has grasped the basics and still needs a slight push to get their map into the "accepted" range, we'll put it into a special queue for 1 week, in which other players can mod it rather than 2 other maps in order to get their own sets into the queue. After the 1 week is up and their map is taken off the special list, we allow them to resubmit, in which case the map will go under the same evaluation as the first time. Obviously, newer mappers will have a harder time getting a first-time accepted map, so we hope that this special queue will allow them to learn more as well as be able to continue them on their mission to rank their map. Even if a map is completely declined, the mapper can send in a pm to someone of the Modding Association and we can leave not a mod but a general guideline on what we expect them to change, as well as some basic points to improve the map, so that way the mapper can resubmit their map and hopefully have its quality improved.

Riari wrote:

The idea that something has to show promise doesn't help newer mappers get into the swing of things. Modding is meant to help people improve, with newer mappers if people were rejected because their first attempt isn't good enough, it gives a bad image and pushes people away.

Though I guess that is what the Modding Academy is for, though we tried to pull that back up and it didn't really work.

It isn't like this queue is the only option for mappers. Mappers have plenty of options and even have other BN's who can rank their maps without even opening this queue. While the criteria here isn't strict, we do require a fair bit of quality before accepting maps, as the queue itself is meant to benefit hard working mappers who are willing to not only mod others' maps, but willing to look for the highest quality in their own maps too.


I hope I worded this okay, if any points need more explaining, I'll try to do so.

I see, moving the maps to the special queue and getting a chance to resubmit seems fair. Thanks for the detailed answer.

Sey wrote:

I see, moving the maps to the special queue and getting a chance to resubmit seems fair. Thanks for the detailed answer.

No problem! If you want to join, pm me with your username on Trello and we can get started with you