forum

New mod similar to Hard Rock, but easier

posted
Total Posts
10
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +15
Topic Starter
CaffeAmericano
Excuse my forum etiquette, it’s the first time I’m posting :3

If a mod similar to (but easier than) hard rock was added, I believe it would help a lot of players transition into hard rock, and make the game better overall.

Following are some of the reasons that I thought of:



1) Learning curve for Hard Rock is too steep
Little bit about me: I am a player ranked around 15k, and I have several friends with similar ranks. At some point, all of my friends (and I) have tried to get comfortable playing with hard rock, without much success.
Because there are very few players around my rank whose best performances are filled with hr, I believe this problem is not just limited to me and my friends.

Part of the reason that hard rock has such a high learning curve is that it changes difficulty setting of the game too much. If I understand correctly, hardrock modifies the difficulty settings in following way:

cs_hr = 1.3*cs
ar_hr = 1.4*ar
od_hr = 1.4*od
hp_hr = 1.4*hp

In addition to, of course, inverting the objects.

In general, playing maps with high cs require good aim. high ar require good reaction, high od require good accuracy, and high hp require good consistency. Hard rock increases all four of these parameters simultaneously, and I don’t think that’s ideal. Often, it is best to learn one thing at a time. Or, at least a smaller increase in these parameters would be helpful.


2) Sudden transition in difficulty settings
The second reason is similar to the first, but I think they are distinct. Nowadays, there are (unofficial) standard game settings used depending on difficulty of a map. For example, the standard for insane maps (4~5 star maps) are:

cs: = 4
ar: =9
od: = 7~8
hp: 6~8

of course, not every 4~5 star insane maps fall into these values, but majority does.

Imagine a typical insane player. If the player is used to playing no mod, she is comfortable with cs4, ar9, od8, and hp 8. But if she wants to learn hr, she will suddenly be required to play a map with ar10, cs5.2, od 9.8~10, and hp 8.4~10. This is a very sudden transition, and no one (that I know of) made this transition comfortably, if at all. It is very difficult to learn ar10, without playing some ar9.5 first. Worse, if a player used to ar8 wants to play hr, she will have to make a jump from ar8 to ar10.

Of course, there are ways to make these transition smoother. A player can pick easier maps to practice hard rock, use ar8+DT, or modify difficulty setting from editor. These help, but for obvious reasons, they are not ideal.

Lately, I’ve been seeing more maps with difficulty setting specified to decimals (like ar9.3, od 8.5, instead of ar9 and od8). I think it’s a positive step toward making transition easier. However, I don’t think they are not sufficient.

If a mapper wanted to create and rank a 4 star map with ar10, it would most likely be struck down by BN and QAT (or whoever decides these stuff), because a 4 star maps don’t go well with ar 10. But hard rock does exactly that.


3) Unintuitive Capping
With hard rock, any od, hp, and ar above 7.2 gets scaled up to value of 10. If a map was created as ar8, instead of ar 9. I believe there was a good reason for that decision, and I don’t think they should be treated the same way when hr is applied. Besides, it would also help transition into hard rock easier if, for example, od 8 becomes 9.5 with hr.

The Request: Easier hard rock
I will move onto the details of the new mod I’m requesting before this gets any longer. I believe all three issues discussed above can be solved by adding a mod similar to hard rock, only easier. Let’s call it “soft rock” for convenience (and because it’s a very creative name). For example, new game setting multiplier can be:
cs_sr = 1.0*cs
ar_sr = 1.2*ar
od_sr = ... etc

Even with a new mod, I don’t think there will be a big overhaul in top 50 scoreboards, as long as score multiplier is kept reasonably low. However, best performances of individual player will feature significantly diverse set of modes, because: 1) soft rock will give more pp than no mod and 2) people will learn hard rock more easily once they master soft rock.

I think flipping play-field is good idea. We can even flip it vertically, instead of horizontally like hard rock.

Also, soft rock can be made so it can be selected by clicking hard rock twice in mod screen, like perfect and nightcore is selected by clicking sudden death and double time twice, respectively. Soft rock won’t take up a lot of space, I promise :)

I do not think that hard rock is a poorly conceived mod. Rather, it is a great idea, created in early days of osu!, but the game has changed a lot since. Hard rock certainly has a place in osu!, but it would greatly benefit having a easier companion. Today, hard rock is almost entirely absent from best performance boards of players with ranks greater than 10k, or the 99% of osu! community. We can fix this \o/.
Bara-
Learn to play HR
No need to make a simplet version of it
As its bonus is less, only a few will use it
People use HR on Easies/Normals (with the other 3 to get high scores)
I'd say no to this
WingSilent
Not everyone can play hp9, cs5.5, ar10 and od9 hum..

You think that everyone are skilled like top50 ? ...
For this, im adding some stars.
Topic Starter
CaffeAmericano

Baraatje123 wrote:

Learn to play HR
No need to make a simplet version of it
As its bonus is less, only a few will use it
People use HR on Easies/Normals (with the other 3 to get high scores)
I'd say no to this
Thanks for your replay, but I hope you had replied after at least skimming though my post, because it sounds like you didn't.

High learning curve was only part of my argument. And I think more people will use the newer and easier version than current hard rock, if implemented, because 99% osu are not azer, angelsim, or hvick. Many people don't care about getting high score, because they are not going to make it to the top 50 anyways. Most people care about getting better, getting pp, and having fun. Easier version of hard rock will achieve all three.

I know a lot of people are proud be a hard rock player, because there's a steep learning curve that they overcame through a lot of practice. But there is no good reason to keep a steep learning curve when there is a easier alternative that makes sense. Why do osu! require the mappers to have even spread of difficulties to have their maps ranked? In your logic, we might as well make all the maps hard or above, and tell the newbies to "learn to play hard maps".
XinCrin
Play AR10 , just that
GhostFrog
If a map is too hard for you with HR, you can always play the map without HR or play another map with HR. If you desperately want to play a harder version of THAT ONE SPECIFIC MAP and you refuse to substitute anything else in its place, you can make an edited version for yourself that has whatever map settings you want. If that's too much effort or you want to play maps with changed settings in multi, go support this request as an unranked mod.
Topic Starter
CaffeAmericano

GhostFrog wrote:

If a map is too hard for you with HR, you can always play the map without HR or play another map with HR.
That’s definitely an option, and what most players do. That’s why most people ranked 10k~100k, including you, have not a single hard rock score in their best performances. I think diversity in mod across the all rank is something that the game should strive for.


GhostFrog wrote:

If you desperately want to play a harder version of THAT ONE SPECIFIC MAP and you refuse to substitute anything else in its place, you can make an edited version for yourself that has whatever map settings you want.
I wrote that exact method in my post. Thanks for not bothering to read the post before criticizing it :)


GhostFrog wrote:

go support this request as an unranked mod.
Thanks for the link. I think that feature will be helpful as long as it stays unranked. It would be ideal, however, if a player can learn to play all mods, without huge learning curve, while only playing ranked maps.



I do not think that learning to play osu! well should be, or can be, easy. However, I think that the game should provide tools to make the learning smoother, when it is viable.
GhostFrog

CaffeAmericano wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

If a map is too hard for you with HR, you can always play the map without HR or play another map with HR.
That’s definitely an option, and what most players do. That’s why most people ranked 10k~100k, including you, have not a single hard rock score in their best performances. I think diversity in mod across the all rank is something that the game should strive for.
I have an EZDT in my best performances instead. I stopped caring to try to learn HR when I realized that low AR was more fun :V


GhostFrog wrote:

go support this request as an unranked mod.
Thanks for the link. I think that feature will be helpful as long as it stays unranked. It would be ideal, however, if a player can learn to play all mods, without huge learning curve, while only playing ranked maps.



I do not think that learning to play osu! well should be, or can be, easy. However, I think that the game should provide tools to make the learning smoother, when it is viable.
Well, to be fair, you already can learn HR from ranked maps. People were able to do so before nomod decimal map settings existed, so t's easier now.

But more importantly, adding in a ranked mod just to make learning HR easier is really icky. The fact that you find it necessary is a sign that you find something wrong with HR as a mod (and imo you're right if you think that, in a sense) rather than that we should add additional mods that would have the same set of problems.

Besides, the only meaningful difference between playing with a ranked mod and playing with an unranked mod is whether or not it counts towards your pp. Unranked mods still go towards playcount. Given that you seem to be specifically promoting this as a practice mod, I thin kit's even more fitting that it wouldn't count towards pp, making unranked perfect for it.
Topic Starter
CaffeAmericano

CaffeAmericano wrote:

Well, to be fair, you already can learn HR from ranked maps. People were able to do so before nomod decimal map settings existed, so t's easier now.
As I mentioned, I agree that decimal map settings help people get comfortable with high od, ar, cs, and hp. I'd definitely call it an improvement. However, one improvement should not stop osu! from making another improvement. It is questionable if people will see adding "soft rock" as an improvement, but finding that out is the purpose of this post.

CaffeAmericano wrote:

But more importantly, adding in a ranked mod just to make learning HR easier is really icky. The fact that you find it necessary is a sign that you find something wrong with HR as a mod (and imo you're right if you think that, in a sense) rather than that we should add additional mods that would have the same set of problems.
I also agree with this, at least in parts. There are problems with hard rock, imo, because it was made during early days of osu! The game has evolved since, the unintended consequence being that hr makes nearly every insane maps ar10, od9.8+, and hp9.8+.

But I disagree with modifying hard rock. Hr certainly has a place in the game among the top and bottom players. Also, changing already existing mod will likely require a huge overhaul of scoreboard, which is no good. Finally, I don't think introducing new mod will introduce same set of problems. Osu! is fairly old game now, and there are standard map settings nowadays. People played this game enough that the game isn't likely to evolve as much as it did in early days. Besides, practicing hr is not the sole purpose of the mod I'm proposing.

CaffeAmericano wrote:

Unranked mods still go towards playcount
Hmm, I do not think that is the case, but I might be wrong. Do you have a source for this?
GhostFrog
My source for unranked mods counting towards playcount is that I've checked my playcount before and after playing relax :P

I'm not suggesting getting rid of HR - just saying that HR has some problems and that rather making decisions around it, we should just not touch it with a 30 foot pole. I don't actually think HR is a bad mod to have (I do think it's a bad mod, but that's different).
Please sign in to reply.

New reply