Well, common sense is just common sense, it is not like one does have different common sense, they are just unable to use it. As I was talking previously, removing BG from Andrea's map, but not from h3k1ru's was reasoned as: "It's 2010, deal with it" or "Nobody's gonna play it today anyway" no common sense was applied at all, that's called fallacy - That's the thing you use to avoid work or creating a valid argument. On another map I got an argument of "how is innocent girl NSFW" - Not considering what was in the picture but that she was innocent - People don't use logic at all, rape is usually done against innocent person, am I eligible to put it in a map with this argument? If people were using common sense, it would work, but they don't even think of making a valid argument, so the standardization is (unfortunately) needed.
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[Rule Clairifcation] NSFW Imagery
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Shohei Ohtani
Ok so let me just explain this.Wafu wrote:
Well, common sense is just common sense, it is not like one does have different common sense, they are just unable to use it. As I was talking previously, removing BG from Andrea's map, but not from h3k1ru's was reasoned as: "It's 2010, deal with it" or "Nobody's gonna play it today anyway" no common sense was applied at all, that's called fallacy - That's the thing you use to avoid work or creating a valid argument. On another map I got an argument of "how is innocent girl NSFW" - Not considering what was in the picture but that she was innocent - People don't use logic at all, rape is usually done against innocent person, am I eligible to put it in a map with this argument? If people were using common sense, it would work, but they don't even think of making a valid argument, so the standardization is (unfortunately) needed.
The issue is that the idea of what is good or bad differs between individuals.
There are commonly held truths that are seen as bad. That's why nobody puts crotch-level organs in plain sight in maps. That's why there's no BGs of IRL gore. However, for either personal or societal reasons, certain things are seen as inappropriate to others, but fine to others.
What you may see as fine may not be seen as fine to others. It's the problem that happens in a multi-cultural game like this.
For instance, let's take a look at this
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3493995
This is a BG for a map that I'm working on. I think it's fine because the song is a song from Busta Rhymes and Twista, and discusses. . . well generally they discuss gang life and stuff but this one is moreso just about how they can run fast, but the beat still is befitting of a rap song. Some people would be offended that guns were being shown in plain view, but others find it fine. Who's in the right? Who's common sense is the common sense?
It's the big reason that I was very unhappy with Loctav's answer in my previous thread and decided to re-open this discussion, because just saying "COMMON SENSE" is such a broad statement that literally it can't be used as a rule. It's why the ranking criteria isn't just "use common sense.", because what some people see as common sense, others see as unnatural.
Unrelated, but here's some more beatmaps that have been ranked after this thread has opened up. These are the same people approving these that called me a degenerate pervert for wanting to have a BG with girls on a beach, waving hello with the bottom part cut off.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/330147
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/302634
It's even easier
Ban swimsuits, underwear and overly naked suggestive body parts
Probably no borderline bgs will remain
But no one is going to do this + fix older maps' bgs
Ban swimsuits, underwear and overly naked suggestive body parts
Probably no borderline bgs will remain
But no one is going to do this + fix older maps' bgs
Shohei Ohtani
Well, since it's come up twice now, I'll explain how the old map thing worksKert wrote:
It's even easier
Ban swimsuits, underwear and overly naked suggestive body parts
Probably no borderline bgs will remain
But no one is going to do this + fix older maps' bgs
We're literally not allowed to unrank maps after a certain while. Before the QAT/BN system, maps were ranked, and if they needed to be taken down for unrankable issues, an admin or someone unranked the map. But after that, the map was free to be the way it was. It's mostly a fairness of scoring thing, as well as giving players some safety from random unranks months after their map become ranked.
But now the qualified section emulates that week. So once it's ranked, it's a no-touch zone unless there's a DMCA notice.
So regardless of the rules that are created, they'll only be applied to maps in the qualified section that day, as well as all other unranked maps that are trying to get ranked.
It's also not a really smart idea to look back on how policy was done back then and take it as fact. The modding process, as I've seen it for 6 years, is a constantly growing thing, and things that were done in 2010 wouldn't be how things are done now. In 2010 I literally pointed out some wrong metadata to DJPop that were like completely wrong and he was like "lmao whatever" (magical times)" and got it ranked. Regardless of how things were done back then, we need to focus on 2 things
1) What was done wrong back then? What do we feel should be changed?
2) How do we change that so that does not keep happening in the future.
And that's how the majority of this discussion should be going like. Nobody cares about what was done in the past, except that it raises issues currently. Nobody is going to try to wipe up the past, but instead we just move forward and make it so things are better in the future.
@Reditum Let me explain something else:
Common sense is based on judging (both objective and subjective) - That means if you use common sense and look at your background, you will say: "It is fine for me, but wouldn't this guy from <insert random country> mind because it is not-so-okay in his country?"
Common knowledge is based on knowledge (objective) - That means if you use common knowledge and look at your background, you will say: "It might be fine for my country, but is not fine for this country." or "It is fine for my country and as far as I know, it is not inappropriate for any other country."
Fallacy is no use of knowledge or judging, but avoiding them - This is actually most used in osu!, which IS the source of all problems. That means if you use fallacy and look at your background, you will just say: "If it is okay for me, why should it be not okay for others?" or "It is okay for me, if it is not for someone, just don't play the map."
If we use common sense or common knowledge, there won't be problems, because both are objective. But most of people use fallacies, so that means people complain because what is okay for them isn't okay for anyone else and then he's the focus of the bullets. If we want to have an objective results, we need a rule that would set the borderline, but the problem is, it will not be objective nevertheless - For example some people are not okay with a rainbow in background, because it is a sign of homosexuality or is sign for drug consumption. I bet if we consider all exceptions like this to be 100% objective, we won't have any backgrounds at all, this will never be "okay" for every country, so some rule will actually replace mapper's brain, if he is unable to use it, but won't solve many problems, because no rule of what is NSFW is objective.
Edit:
Wiped scores are not that critical as someone below age seeing really inappropriate stuff.
Common sense is based on judging (both objective and subjective) - That means if you use common sense and look at your background, you will say: "It is fine for me, but wouldn't this guy from <insert random country> mind because it is not-so-okay in his country?"
Common knowledge is based on knowledge (objective) - That means if you use common knowledge and look at your background, you will say: "It might be fine for my country, but is not fine for this country." or "It is fine for my country and as far as I know, it is not inappropriate for any other country."
Fallacy is no use of knowledge or judging, but avoiding them - This is actually most used in osu!, which IS the source of all problems. That means if you use fallacy and look at your background, you will just say: "If it is okay for me, why should it be not okay for others?" or "It is okay for me, if it is not for someone, just don't play the map."
If we use common sense or common knowledge, there won't be problems, because both are objective. But most of people use fallacies, so that means people complain because what is okay for them isn't okay for anyone else and then he's the focus of the bullets. If we want to have an objective results, we need a rule that would set the borderline, but the problem is, it will not be objective nevertheless - For example some people are not okay with a rainbow in background, because it is a sign of homosexuality or is sign for drug consumption. I bet if we consider all exceptions like this to be 100% objective, we won't have any backgrounds at all, this will never be "okay" for every country, so some rule will actually replace mapper's brain, if he is unable to use it, but won't solve many problems, because no rule of what is NSFW is objective.
Edit:
So it is completely okay if my future kid plays osu! as a 12+ game, finds and old beatmap with loli hentai which is half-illegal in this country? I don't think that we should actually ignore things, because rules were different back and then, it is still 12+ game. Also I mentioned this issue in 2012, just after p/1651744 was unranked.Reditum wrote:
Nobody is going to try to wipe up the past, but instead we just move forward and make it so things are better in the future.
Wiped scores are not that critical as someone below age seeing really inappropriate stuff.
Shohei Ohtani
uhhhh
like it's really cool that you typed all of that but it seemed really scattered and I'm not sure what you're getting at.
With your stuff about the guidelines, of course it's not going to be 100% objective. That's literally like, with anything. That's why it's a guideline. There ARE going to be things that require discussion and require thought.
The thing is that the creation of a list is supposed to DECREASE the amount of subjectivity that arises when issues like these come up.
And you're also assuming that literally anything that makes anybody unhappy is going to immediately be banned. Which is stupid. Firstly, I'm 99% sure that with symbolism, people are going to understand when symbols are standing for something and when they aren't. If the QAT was run by my grandparents and their conservative christian buddies, then I'd think otherwise, but QATs aren't that stupid. Secondly, the list is sort of finding a common ground. It's not going to appease to everyone. It's osu!'s rules. It's not trying to censor everything, it's trying to get an idea of what is allowed and what isn't allowed for this particular game. If someone in a different country has a big issue with something that is getting approved, they can open a discussion and it can be discussed if the majority of the game should abide.
As for your edit, if peppy wants to do that, he can go ahead. I'm literally saying that it's the general policy of osu! to not touch things after a week of being ranked. Even maps that are incorrectly timed or otherwise really low quality aren't really taken down or anything. And I'm not sure he'd be willing to take the time to do that. He's been willing to add a filter to maps from back then that are considered NSFW, but that's the most I've seen. Literally 0 rule changes have ever caused peppy to go back and unrank maps. Solo Tu is a weird exception because sometimes peppy comes in and does stuff like that. But I'm saying to focus moreso on the future, hence why standards need to be made, so stuff like that doesn't happen in the future.
like it's really cool that you typed all of that but it seemed really scattered and I'm not sure what you're getting at.
With your stuff about the guidelines, of course it's not going to be 100% objective. That's literally like, with anything. That's why it's a guideline. There ARE going to be things that require discussion and require thought.
The thing is that the creation of a list is supposed to DECREASE the amount of subjectivity that arises when issues like these come up.
And you're also assuming that literally anything that makes anybody unhappy is going to immediately be banned. Which is stupid. Firstly, I'm 99% sure that with symbolism, people are going to understand when symbols are standing for something and when they aren't. If the QAT was run by my grandparents and their conservative christian buddies, then I'd think otherwise, but QATs aren't that stupid. Secondly, the list is sort of finding a common ground. It's not going to appease to everyone. It's osu!'s rules. It's not trying to censor everything, it's trying to get an idea of what is allowed and what isn't allowed for this particular game. If someone in a different country has a big issue with something that is getting approved, they can open a discussion and it can be discussed if the majority of the game should abide.
As for your edit, if peppy wants to do that, he can go ahead. I'm literally saying that it's the general policy of osu! to not touch things after a week of being ranked. Even maps that are incorrectly timed or otherwise really low quality aren't really taken down or anything. And I'm not sure he'd be willing to take the time to do that. He's been willing to add a filter to maps from back then that are considered NSFW, but that's the most I've seen. Literally 0 rule changes have ever caused peppy to go back and unrank maps. Solo Tu is a weird exception because sometimes peppy comes in and does stuff like that. But I'm saying to focus moreso on the future, hence why standards need to be made, so stuff like that doesn't happen in the future.
since when an online game for around 12 below?,Wafu wrote:
So it is completely okay if my future kid plays osu! as a 12+ game, finds and old beatmap with loli hentai which is half-illegal in this country? I don't think that we should actually ignore things.
Wiped scores are not that critical as someone below age seeing really inappropriate stuff.
and common sense lmao :OOOO, my sister played CSGO too much and she got #1 in her class at education. if below 12+ or non-legal looking or watching a porn/hentai/etc don't ever download it or something blah, and same as in osu, if you have looked some breast or some hentai picture like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/151687 , just don't download it or change the BG instead if you really want to download it.
Shohei Ohtani
I think he's referring to the part in the ranking criteria that says "BGs must be 12+"PatZar wrote:
since when an online game for around 12 below?Wafu wrote:
So it is completely okay if my future kid plays osu! as a 12+ game, finds and old beatmap with loli hentai which is half-illegal in this country? I don't think that we should actually ignore things.
Wiped scores are not that critical as someone below age seeing really inappropriate stuff.
As for the game itself, there really is no consistent ranking. It's mentioned that it's a family friendly game but like there's no censorship filter on curse words (on the forum. There's some for IRC but it's not really large enough to constitute a "safe kid friendly environment" level of filtering.
yes i mean, for an online game we aren't recommended it for kids, exactly for non-legal region/country to seeing an inappropriate picture.
I agree that something what will tell us what's safe and not safe is needed, but that's only because people, as I described, use fallacies instead of common sense or common knowledge. Most inappropriate bgs are reasoned with "I like it, just don't download it if you don't.", which even PatZar said "just don't download it or change the BG instead if you really want to download it.", it can be an apologize for old maps, which at least could have that warning, but not really for new maps, but unfortunately it happens that people give a reason like this and it passes just like nothing happens. So the point is - Make a good wording for this, that will say, what is okay and what not. It is needed because people apparently cannot use common sense/knowledge - I am not going against you, I just said that it's pity that we even need such a rule because of a reason that people cannot judge objectively, but I definitely agree that with current community we need that 
I am not sure how the maps are stored serverside, but a different bg itself never forced you to press "Update beatmap" button ingame
I mean deranking is probably not needed to fix old maps' bgs
I mean deranking is probably not needed to fix old maps' bgs
Mercurial
This is the most stupid answer I've seen in a while, holy hell.PatZar wrote:
since when an online game for around 12 below?,
and common sense lmao :OOOO, my sister played CSGO too much and she got #1 in her class at education. if below 12+ or non-legal looking or watching a porn/hentai/etc don't ever download it or something blah, and same as in osu, if you have looked some breast or some hentai picture like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/151687 , just don't download it or change the BG instead if you really want to download it.
Rules are rules and they are there for something. One should respect them and follow them.
This seems to be one of the most common history repeating problems i've seen here since I started and retired from being a BAT. Although we can have set rules on quality and content control, its also important for those in charge to enforce it. If we can keep the zipper up in the pants and head, this wouldn't be such an issue. But apparently, there's those that still choose to push what they feel is necessary to submit. Even going as far as submitting beatmaps with nude/hentai backgrounds & videos. Of course, 98.9% of those maps end up being graved or deleted with punishment. For the 1.1% that actually made it through, is usually through strict modding but even then there's always something missed at some point like a nude scene glimpse in a half-second flash that no one catches till 2 months later or something....
Going back to the point of the "content" of the images, when it comes to touchy stuff like swimsuits and skirts, its usually a no-brainer on what to allow. If the swimsuit is showing a normal figure without the extra details of nipples and such showing through or outlining heavily (which would eventually be called soft-core at this point) then its fine. Anything beyond what is needed for that kind of image is just too much and should have second thoughts. For skirts, if you take proper physics into account like spinning or slight wind blowing, there's a chance something would show, but the thing people fail to take notice most of the time is if its intentional to be sexy or form of art? I could accept at some degree if it was like a fight scene or something, but doesn't have to show that much to where its "in your face" compared to two girls laying down with skirts up like they want to have a groupie or something. But sadly, as far as I see now, its more of an attention contest as the inspection of beatmaps become too lenient on the cosmetics that can still hurt us in the long run.
Going back to the point of the "content" of the images, when it comes to touchy stuff like swimsuits and skirts, its usually a no-brainer on what to allow. If the swimsuit is showing a normal figure without the extra details of nipples and such showing through or outlining heavily (which would eventually be called soft-core at this point) then its fine. Anything beyond what is needed for that kind of image is just too much and should have second thoughts. For skirts, if you take proper physics into account like spinning or slight wind blowing, there's a chance something would show, but the thing people fail to take notice most of the time is if its intentional to be sexy or form of art? I could accept at some degree if it was like a fight scene or something, but doesn't have to show that much to where its "in your face" compared to two girls laying down with skirts up like they want to have a groupie or something. But sadly, as far as I see now, its more of an attention contest as the inspection of beatmaps become too lenient on the cosmetics that can still hurt us in the long run.
..... That logic is soo uneducated that it phyiscally hurts to make sense of it. If osu wasn't restricted to 13+ age, you would be seeing a lot more than V's and P's that could bring the game a lot of trouble. Besides that, of course there are games for 12 and below out there so don't generalize what online games only are.PatZar wrote:
since when an online game for around 12 below?,
and common sense lmao :OOOO, my sister played CSGO too much and she got #1 in her class at education. if below 12+ or non-legal looking or watching a porn/hentai/etc don't ever download it or something blah, and same as in osu, if you have looked some breast or some hentai picture like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/151687 , just don't download it or change the BG instead if you really want to download it.
Mercurial
I remember having to delete at least 13 or so of those maps that sat in the grave cause people kept downloading and /np them in #osu. It really got old fast just like avatar cleanup.Mercurial wrote:
Some years ago, there was a witchhunt against these kind of maps. I'm so sad that there are maps that still made it through.
Mercurial
I only did a small fraction in my part. The main issue to address this rule is to properly enforce it. As far as I remember reading it over, it makes enough sense as it is. We shouldn't have to spell out every bit of detail with what to "not" to have. I feel the main issue which has always been, is for more of the beatmap team to enforce this rule better. Of course, this doesn't mean something like "OMG WHY DOES SHE HAVE A SWIMSUIT ON IN A HOUSE WITH ICECREAM?! UNRANK, NUUUUUUUKEEEEE-" no, not like that. Just have to apply more thought into it cause not everyone is mature about it and we do have to keep it sane and safe in terms of content being provided.
Mercurial
You can expect every mapper to follow the rules, and that's why the moderation team exists. It's a shame that they don't care enough about said rules.
Also, you can't expect great things when you know the majority of people in here have a promedium of age of 16/17 years old. They just don't learn quickly enough or they don't want to.
Also, you can't expect great things when you know the majority of people in here have a promedium of age of 16/17 years old. They just don't learn quickly enough or they don't want to.
Shohei Ohtani
Mercurial
That's actually true. The rule exactly says it is now allowed, but some (most) people just ignore it, because they like other stuff..Mercurial wrote:
The rule is okay as how it is right now.
Mods just need to enforce it and mappers need to stop doing such stupid things.
There might be a guide which would list inappropriate and appropriate stuff, but enforcing it as a rule or guideline will result in people ignoring it as they do now. Because it actually is a rule.
Mercurial
Blame for what? Having slightly lewd BGs ranked? The only people those type of pictures actually offend or people like you.Mercurial wrote:
The only ones to blame here are the staff behind this game.
I'm sorry, but that's how it is.
The only rules that we need are no nudity, nothing much more exposing that underwear/bikini, or anything that is overtly sexually suggestive. I've yet to see any evidence that lewd pictures are harmful for minors so I don't see why we should cater to religious sensibilities. Just because that's what a lot of rulers and regulations in society are based around, we don't need to mindlessly follow.
And I've already made the case that getting too specific with rules doesn't work for this type of thing. It's the same for moderation as well, mods have the power to hand out silences entirely at their discretion without having to follow any specific rule. What might be a better idea is to pick out a team of a few people that will make the decisions regarding NSFW cases. If you have the same people, you will have a lot more consistency,
We're not talking about "slight". We're talking about notable points of certain BG images. Some of the examples here aren't as close to what few has actually seen before. Besides fighting over stuff in the past, try to work on dealing with what is there now.B1rd wrote:
Blame for what? Having slightly lewd BGs ranked? The only people those type of pictures actually offend or people like you.Mercurial wrote:
The only ones to blame here are the staff behind this game.
I'm sorry, but that's how it is.
"I've yet to see any evidence that lewd pictures are harmful for minors so I don't see why we should cater to religious sensibilities. Just because that's what a lot of rulers and regulations in society are based around, we don't need to mindlessly follow. "
Do you really want to wait until that actually happens? It shouldn't be like you'll get shot in the head for one minor thing not on the book, but the rules just have to be enforced more. Its not about "mindlessly" following rules as some would assume, just doing what is most logical and not conflicting in the future of things. Also, just because it hasn't "shown" harm to minors doesn't mean the game itself doesn't have to be lightly tolerant to this. The current generation of games have a system to follow on age rating based on the content.
I'm not really going to participate in discussion but just want to give one more example of recently ranked map with a pretty suggestive BG: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/572449, hvick225's Insane. Probably some BGs with swimsuits aren't really that lewd and contain more like happy atmosphere, but curves and poses on this one are totally lewd and make me think about sexual context.
I have been offended by 9/10 of these maps. It baffles me that they're allowed. Depiction of young girls is considered on the same level as pictures of young girls in my country. Imagine law enforcement finding someone with a HD full of little girls in underwear/swimsuits, drawn images are legally on the same level afaik. Underwear should not be allowed, swimsuits should only be allowed when they're 100% non-suggestive, but that's rare so imo they should be banned too. The fact that this beatmap was allowed in the OWC made me cringe internally. I can't believe it was shown on stream too, no one said anything.
!report Shinxyn inappropriate beatmap, song is lewd and hopeless perverts difficulty contains a vaginer slider at 03:06:369 (1) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/33415
!report asphyxia inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/391228
!report fionana innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164278
!report ryuukun innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/29158
!report Suzuka_Asahina innapropriate beatmap, BG on the kurimu difficulty has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/59957
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has suggestive swimuits showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/82785
!report alacat innapropriate beatmap, BG has suggestive swimuits showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/653335
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has suggestive swimuits and topless girl showing on the normal difficulty. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/48141
!report Amamiya Yuko innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing on quilt's insane difficulty. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/703042
!report bouncebabe innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/175211
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/107297
!report whymeman innapropriate beatmap, BG video is very innapropriate, BG is mildly offensive. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/34657
!report bouncebabe innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/217607
!report bouncebabe innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/158766
!report louis cyphre innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/120064&m=0
!report hellzero innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116095
!report mashley innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/71571
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/146087
!report ichigun innapropriate beatmap, BG has lots of chest skin showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/153896
!report tri-edge innapropriate beatmap, BG has MASSIVE ROCKET TITS. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/20992
!report DJPOP inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/45464
!report vicho-kun inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/71005
!report andrea inappropriate beatmap, BG on normal and hard difficulty have underwear showing. Video is also not ok. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/42373
!report abalee inappropriate beatmap, BG on relax, just so so and no rest! difficulties have underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/21383
!report licnect inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/90656
!report djpop inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/31620
!report pokie inappropriate beatmap, BG basically has a vaginer showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58092
!report saten inappropriate beatmap, BG basically has a vaginer showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/110771
!report Shinxyn inappropriate beatmap, song is lewd and hopeless perverts difficulty contains a vaginer slider at 03:06:369 (1) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/33415
!report asphyxia inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/391228
!report fionana innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164278
!report ryuukun innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/29158
!report Suzuka_Asahina innapropriate beatmap, BG on the kurimu difficulty has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/59957
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has suggestive swimuits showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/82785
!report alacat innapropriate beatmap, BG has suggestive swimuits showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/653335
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has suggestive swimuits and topless girl showing on the normal difficulty. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/48141
!report Amamiya Yuko innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing on quilt's insane difficulty. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/703042
!report bouncebabe innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/175211
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/107297
!report whymeman innapropriate beatmap, BG video is very innapropriate, BG is mildly offensive. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/34657
!report bouncebabe innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/217607
!report bouncebabe innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/158766
!report louis cyphre innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/120064&m=0
!report hellzero innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116095
!report mashley innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/71571
!report andrea innapropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/146087
!report ichigun innapropriate beatmap, BG has lots of chest skin showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/153896
!report tri-edge innapropriate beatmap, BG has MASSIVE ROCKET TITS. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/20992
!report DJPOP inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/45464
!report vicho-kun inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/71005
!report andrea inappropriate beatmap, BG on normal and hard difficulty have underwear showing. Video is also not ok. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/42373
!report abalee inappropriate beatmap, BG on relax, just so so and no rest! difficulties have underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/21383
!report licnect inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/90656
!report djpop inappropriate beatmap, BG has underwear showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/31620
!report pokie inappropriate beatmap, BG basically has a vaginer showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58092
!report saten inappropriate beatmap, BG basically has a vaginer showing. https://osu.ppy.sh/b/110771
What a sad world we live in.
yeah, that kaze pick was awkward as all fuck when it came on, think I was casting a match or two where it showed up
let's hammer out a conclusive schema we can use to determine whether an image is appropriate or not. i'll throw out a starting point, add/remove points as you feel appropriate and we can discuss where to go further after that:
let's hammer out a conclusive schema we can use to determine whether an image is appropriate or not. i'll throw out a starting point, add/remove points as you feel appropriate and we can discuss where to go further after that:
All images should be appropriately targeted to an audience of all ages, and be considered "safe for work". Anything that could be reasonably considered sexually suggestive or otherwise lewd is deemed inappropriate - including (but not limited to) visible outlines of genitalia, underwear that is plainly visible or any imagery that otherwise encompasses concepts that are not appropriate for children (drug use, overt violence etc).
Because 95% of the players in this game don't care about seeing swimsuit or underwear. Just like, you know, people in real life.jesus1412 wrote:
no one said anything.
All images should be appropriately targeted to an audience of all ages, and be considered "safe for work". Anything that could be reasonably considered sexually suggestive or otherwise lewd is deemed inappropriate - including (but not limited to) visible outlines of genitalia, underwear that is plainly visible or any imagery that otherwise encompasses concepts that are not appropriate for children (drug use, overt violence etc).I think it's a good general guideline about what should be put or not. But it won't change what the mappers are going to take as BG and what the modders are going to rank. In my opinion, we need to add with this something more direct, not a simple sentence written in the guidelines which, alone, will lead us to the same point as we are now.
It might be a dumb idea, but if some people in general are upset for a certain background on a map that is going to be ranked, or has been ranked a few times ago, what about making a poll where players, mappers, or only BNs/QATs/GMTs could vote ? I mean there aren't too many maps where the BG cause problems, so we could take decision for each of these maps separatly. It would take some time obviously, but it's worth doing this so we can avoid overly-NSFW pictures.
in which case 95% would say no because the entire osu community is full of hentais.Arrival wrote:
It might be a dumb idea, but if some people in general are upset for a certain background on a map that is going to be ranked, or has been ranked a few times ago, what about making a poll where players, mappers, or only BNs/QATs/GMTs could vote ? I mean there aren't too many maps where the BG cause problems, so we could take decision for each of these maps separatly. It would take some time obviously, but it's worth doing this so we can avoid overly-NSFW pictures.
Not even slightly better than the system already in place. Completely debatable and up for interpretation. Except for not allowing underwear, because they are so horrible and fundamentally different from bikini bottoms which are acceptable? I don't think so. I see models in lingerie as advertisement on the front of stores in town and in magazines. This should be judged on a case by case basis like the rest of the things.Ephemeral wrote:
yeah, that kaze pick was awkward as all fuck when it came on, think I was casting a match or two where it showed up
let's hammer out a conclusive schema we can use to determine whether an image is appropriate or not. i'll throw out a starting point, add/remove points as you feel appropriate and we can discuss where to go further after that:All images should be appropriately targeted to an audience of all ages, and be considered "safe for work". Anything that could be reasonably considered sexually suggestive or otherwise lewd is deemed inappropriate - including (but not limited to) visible outlines of genitalia, underwear that is plainly visible or any imagery that otherwise encompasses concepts that are not appropriate for children (drug use, overt violence etc).
Why? The only requirement is that the game has to be suitable for all ages, not that it has to follow the ridiculously out of touch 'age rating' systems or cater to overprotective parents' values of what is 'appropriate' or not. I do not seen any coherent points made against my post.whymeman wrote:
Also, just because it hasn't "shown" harm to minors doesn't mean the game itself doesn't have to be lightly tolerant to this. The current generation of games have a system to follow on age rating based on the content.
Shohei Ohtani
Sorry it's taken so long for me to get to thisEphemeral wrote:
yeah, that kaze pick was awkward as all fuck when it came on, think I was casting a match or two where it showed up
let's hammer out a conclusive schema we can use to determine whether an image is appropriate or not. i'll throw out a starting point, add/remove points as you feel appropriate and we can discuss where to go further after that:All images should be appropriately targeted to an audience of all ages, and be considered "safe for work". Anything that could be reasonably considered sexually suggestive or otherwise lewd is deemed inappropriate - including (but not limited to) visible outlines of genitalia, underwear that is plainly visible or any imagery that otherwise encompasses concepts that are not appropriate for children (drug use, overt violence etc).
Anyways, I feel this is a good start to this. It's SOMETHING, which is good. At the current moment, there's nothing striking that pops up into my head that needs to be added/removed.
the beach is not a foreign concept to children.
I don't feel that an explicitly long list needs to be made, but this definitely gives us a good start, and if the slight vagueness becomes an issue, then specification can be added based on certain cases
woohoo
it is already judged on a case by case basis, by a litany of different people, which is why the issue exists to begin with!
there is almost no way to conclusively adhere objective identifiers to a criteria hinged entirely upon subjective experience. this entire concept is an exercise in futility for the most part. sticking to the "all-ages" and "no sexually suggestive" content at a base level is the best we can do without outlining hundreds of fringe cases.
there is almost no way to conclusively adhere objective identifiers to a criteria hinged entirely upon subjective experience. this entire concept is an exercise in futility for the most part. sticking to the "all-ages" and "no sexually suggestive" content at a base level is the best we can do without outlining hundreds of fringe cases.
Shohei Ohtani
Makes sense.
Although, internally, it might be good to have a discussion with the QATs about what they feel is appropriate or not. Even though you can't make rulings about it, you can sort of get everyone on the same page, or at least see where the majority lie. That'd be helpful in at the very least getting everyone on the same page, so there's consistency.
I'd say "yeah go ahead and bubble Ephemeral's wording" but I'll leave it open for discussion that actually relates to the rule proposed and isn't just a discussion about how either the world is a terrible place because "omg underwear = swimsuits whats the difference i don't know what context is" or how people are so dumb because it should just be common sense even though common sense is still subjective based on life experiences and beliefs"
Although, internally, it might be good to have a discussion with the QATs about what they feel is appropriate or not. Even though you can't make rulings about it, you can sort of get everyone on the same page, or at least see where the majority lie. That'd be helpful in at the very least getting everyone on the same page, so there's consistency.
I'd say "yeah go ahead and bubble Ephemeral's wording" but I'll leave it open for discussion that actually relates to the rule proposed and isn't just a discussion about how either the world is a terrible place because "omg underwear = swimsuits whats the difference i don't know what context is" or how people are so dumb because it should just be common sense even though common sense is still subjective based on life experiences and beliefs"
I just looked up and noticed I was in that list. Not all beatmap themes are easy to map when they are related to a familiar character....
I see other maps with even more extreme BGs that shouldn't have been ranked at the time which is a clear example of how its not properly enforced. I'm not going to count myself exempt from it, but at least I try to consider what i'm throwing in. And as I said before, it becomes a problem when its excessively enforced that a map should be nuked over something that's within artistic reason but also a huge problem if its passively enforced where not much consideration of the content is made before approving maps with such backgrounds (and combobursts.... can't forget those you know).
Proper discretion is needed on proper judgement since this rule clearly hammers in "common sense" on what is not allowed, there are still some gray areas you still need to work with considerably. Not too much, not too little so to say....
Wait, hold on....
I see other maps with even more extreme BGs that shouldn't have been ranked at the time which is a clear example of how its not properly enforced. I'm not going to count myself exempt from it, but at least I try to consider what i'm throwing in. And as I said before, it becomes a problem when its excessively enforced that a map should be nuked over something that's within artistic reason but also a huge problem if its passively enforced where not much consideration of the content is made before approving maps with such backgrounds (and combobursts.... can't forget those you know).
Proper discretion is needed on proper judgement since this rule clearly hammers in "common sense" on what is not allowed, there are still some gray areas you still need to work with considerably. Not too much, not too little so to say....
Wait, hold on....
That was WAY MORE than 10 maps. I hope this isn't another one of those stupid joke posts cause its not funny....jesus1412 wrote:
I have been offended by 9/10 of these maps......
I would agree with Ephemeral's wording, that seems pretty obviously if we wan't to avoid inconsistency and if we want to make it fair and clear for everyone. This will just avoid all problems, people will complain on "omg but it was wind what has shown her panties, she's so innocent about it!" etc., but if it is supposed to be safe, let it be safe and use different sites for NSFW stuff - This is only way it can be really fair to everyone unless someone else does have some genius idea, but I think this would be ready to go.
@Reditum I just want to say common sense, indeed is based on life experiences, but that doesn't mean those life experiences were only related to you - You've met enough people gathered many opinions and heard many things from others and you will mostly base common sense on what you heard, read and so on plus your own feelings - That's the subjective part, but if you can use logic and consider what people told you, common sense will result in objective opinion. Problem is many people don't know that common sense is not only subject's feels, so they result in subjective opinion, which is reason why "common sense" in osu! and other communities does not work, but still, saying people are dumb for saying common sense could be used is kinda off, because it depends on whether they use the common sense related to what they experienced or whether they use common sense related to what they feel.
@Reditum I just want to say common sense, indeed is based on life experiences, but that doesn't mean those life experiences were only related to you - You've met enough people gathered many opinions and heard many things from others and you will mostly base common sense on what you heard, read and so on plus your own feelings - That's the subjective part, but if you can use logic and consider what people told you, common sense will result in objective opinion. Problem is many people don't know that common sense is not only subject's feels, so they result in subjective opinion, which is reason why "common sense" in osu! and other communities does not work, but still, saying people are dumb for saying common sense could be used is kinda off, because it depends on whether they use the common sense related to what they experienced or whether they use common sense related to what they feel.
Mercurial
Yep, I was playing this and wondering how the hell that map made it out safely without a proper warning...Kyubey wrote:
I'm not really going to participate in discussion but just want to give one more example of recently ranked map with a pretty suggestive BG: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/572449, hvick225's Insane. Probably some BGs with swimsuits aren't really that lewd and contain more like happy atmosphere, but curves and poses on this one are totally lewd and make me think about sexual context.
I'm with Ephemeral in this one.
Also, WE NEED THE STAFF TO FOLLOW AND ENFORCE THE RULES!
Re-bump:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/227847 <- Just found another one... Why?
jajajaja, sorry but that's true~~Kibbleru wrote:
in which case 95% would say no because the entire osu community is full of hentais.
Mercurial
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/705540
While this topic is pretty much dead, maps with backgrounds like that one up here are being ranked.
While this topic is pretty much dead, maps with backgrounds like that one up here are being ranked.
Shohei Ohtani
I'd like to get this kind of like settled. Luckily, nothing NSFW has come up recently, which I think makes it a perfect time to think about this rule, since we're no longer basing it off of "THIS IS A PROBLEM DESTROYING THE GAME SHITMAP" but rather "Let's account for this so in the future we don't run into issues"
I've edited the main post with Ephemeral's post.
I've edited the main post with Ephemeral's post.
Shohei Ohtani
https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/commen ... ht_become/
As much as I hate using reddit for any sort of relevant discussion, we need to talk about this now since it's affecting already existing maps
Especially since Loctav posted this in said linked thread.
If staff or anybody feels that this deserves a separate thread, then we can move this discussion to a separate thread. I just also want to tackle two very similar issues at once, and I want to especially not fill up the subforum with more threads than it needs.
My opinion stands the same as before.
As much as I hate using reddit for any sort of relevant discussion, we need to talk about this now since it's affecting already existing maps
Especially since Loctav posted this in said linked thread.
Sorry for that. The Ranking Criteria needs an update on that and I will work on getting that clarified, so efforts don't go to waste anymore.Since we've talked about what if "safe" and "not safe" in this thread, kind of, I'd like to hopefully kill 2 birds with one stone and talk about imagery AND lyrics content, since they are highly related. I know imagery is a little bit of a different problem, because there's a little bit more subjective things (aka. visually seeing naked bodies may be different than having a lyric about them), but I feel that similar issues can arise.
If staff or anybody feels that this deserves a separate thread, then we can move this discussion to a separate thread. I just also want to tackle two very similar issues at once, and I want to especially not fill up the subforum with more threads than it needs.
My opinion stands the same as before.
The rule can be easily clarified: Is the picture safe for work?
No. Obviously your boss will fire you when he sees you playing osu!.
Joking alone, I think to be more appropriate, swimsuit is allowed when it is worn by a obviously grown person in a non-suggestive manner.
It should not be allowed when be worn by a children or a person-who-looks-like-a-children. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/18729 (if the person on the leftmost is cropped, then it is mostly OK)
The reason if obvious: to prevent encouragement for sexual related appeal on children.
No. Obviously your boss will fire you when he sees you playing osu!.
Joking alone, I think to be more appropriate, swimsuit is allowed when it is worn by a obviously grown person in a non-suggestive manner.
It should not be allowed when be worn by a children or a person-who-looks-like-a-children. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/18729 (if the person on the leftmost is cropped, then it is mostly OK)
The reason if obvious: to prevent encouragement for sexual related appeal on children.
People who really like loli won't be encouraged to play loli background songs either, as people usually use automated scripts to remove backgrounds in order to save disk space.Khelly wrote:
People who don't already like loli won't be encouraged to like loli because they see a swimsuit in a background that they probably have 100% dimmed anyways when they play a map.
People who don't already like loli won't be encouraged to like loli because they see a swimsuit in a background that they probably have 100% dimmed anyways when they play a map.
Oh shit the anti-loli league has shown up.
It doesn't matter what age they are because it's fiction and has no impact on the real world. And isn't your avatar from a porn game where the heroine is an underage looking girl? Unless I'm thinking of something else.
It doesn't matter what age they are because it's fiction and has no impact on the real world. And isn't your avatar from a porn game where the heroine is an underage looking girl? Unless I'm thinking of something else.
I really don't think the bg is any qualifier for whether or not someone wants to play a map. It's almost inconsequential.Flower wrote:
People who really like loli won't be encouraged to play loli background songs either, as people usually use automated scripts to remove backgrounds in order to save disk space.Khelly wrote:
People who don't already like loli won't be encouraged to like loli because they see a swimsuit in a background that they probably have 100% dimmed anyways when they play a map.
I am totally okay with NSFW songs, texts, images, etc.
NSFW is all around us, you can't turn on tv nowadays without getting some kind of NSFW.
NSFW is all around us, you can't turn on tv nowadays without getting some kind of NSFW.
Shohei Ohtani
I don't have anything new to bring to the discussion, but I wanted to say that it's not really a positive thing to be like "oh yeah well people will dim BG anyway"
When looking at the rankability of maps, we have to assume that all of the default settings are used, and that nothing is changed, even if it is commonplace for high leveled players to dim BGs
Also, I wanna throw this out there
When looking at the rankability of maps, we have to assume that all of the default settings are used, and that nothing is changed, even if it is commonplace for high leveled players to dim BGs
Also, I wanna throw this out there
so I'm not entirely sure if staff will care enough at this point to comment on this thread???Deif wrote:
Take a look at this thread: t/420229
There's no need to push this one forward, since the all the rules and guidelines and possible new amendments are already being discussed. Just wait until everything's done!
This is a topic the community has absolutely no influence on. What is considered NSFW or in general appropriate imagery etc. is completely up to peppy. I agree that it should be more clarified, however there is no real reason for discussion in this forum.
Shohei Ohtani
Not really.