By the way a very famous case was recently resolved which pretty much threw away all the good policy related things peppy was applying regarding cheaters. Thought after the whole moneto thing this wasn't gonna happen again.

Looks like that's the new meta, since you can smurf, boost accounts, blatantly cheat for months (even during OWC) and then get unbanned by apologizing a year or two later (you need to convince random reddit people you are legit though).

This will probably get moved to that graveyard sub-forum or something hopefully peppy will read it eventually no idea how to message him.

Edit: Not talking about C just in case.

\_/ <- care cup

OP isn't angry, just disappointed. That makes it so much worse.

oh it's reimu
meh

big integrity-tossing.

oh welp, they can still maintain their integrity if they re-define their system to something like: "Unban after cheating is possible if you have at least certain number X of loud supporters that send regular angry e-mails to our management. Also if your name starts with H and ends with akurei Reimu."
Lets hope that they won't regret this decision.

Congratz though. the statistics-whore in me celebrates this day as a day where the leaderboard got a tiny little bit more interesting.

Edit: oh look at that.. did they update it? Or was it always like that.
from: https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Osu!:Rules#BSS_Forum_Rules
Because if what I see is true, this rather looks like a change of policies. That actually looks like an elegant solution. Then all thats left is to discuss is this policy is more useful than the old one.

B1rd wrote:

OP isn't angry, just disappointed. That makes it so much worse.

for the most part, yes. Disappointment tends to be more calculative and rational, while anger tends to be more emotional, impulsive and uninformed. Disappointment is the anger of a rational person (in some cases, at least).
I'd be more concerned if someone was disappointed in me, compared to someone being angry at me. You wouldn't want either, of course.

noone seems to be bitching about _index still competing on the rankings, why the fuck is reimu such a big deal? it probably didnt even depend on the # of supporters.

Riince wrote:

noone seems to be bitching about _index still competing on the rankings, why the fuck is reimu such a big deal? it probably didnt even depend on the # of supporters.

maybe index isn't big enough of a deal.
I wasn't entirely serious with the cursive part.

I do care about other cheaters like _index (and many others, cba to enumerate) but since this is the recent case I thought it deserved the spotlight.

Personally, I believe most big name cheaters (who got there by cheating pretty much, let's not forget Reimu and his whole "group" became all top players from nowhere, most are already banned though) will keep cheating because the reasons they used to cheat still remain. They either want attention or to be able to brag about their skill level (or money from Twitch now lol) or are just frustrated they can't beat some guy so they just occasionally cheat when they can't beat something.

Sadly there is no proof to back me up (other than having called most big name bans way before they happened). Most legit players will have a progression curve while cheaters usually won't, which is why you never lift bans no matter how many time passes, because you already lost the ability to look at his skill progression since you couldn't see what he was playing (offline plays) for an extended period of time. Only evidence you can find to convict someone, other than solid one (as in hack detection or Airman DT+FL) is a ridiculous skill progression.

Wishy wrote:

I do care about other cheaters like _index (and many others, cba to enumerate) but since this is the recent case I thought it deserved the spotlight.

Personally, I believe most big name cheaters (who got there by cheating pretty much, let's not forget Reimu and his whole "group" became all top players from nowhere, most are already banned though) will keep cheating because the reasons they used to cheat still remain. They either want attention or to be able to brag about their skill level (or money from Twitch now lol) or are just frustrated they can't beat some guy so they just occasionally cheat when they can't beat something.

Sadly there is no proof to back me up (other than having called most big name bans way before they happened). Most legit players will have a progression curve while cheaters usually won't, which is why you never lift bans no matter how many time passes, because you already lost the ability to look at his skill progression since you couldn't see what he was playing (offline plays) for an extended period of time. Only evidence you can find to convict someone, other than solid one (as in hack detection or Airman DT+FL) is a ridiculous skill progression.

It's fair to give recent cases the most attention.


I believe in personal growth and changing/updating beliefs. People change a lot over the years. Especially younger people. Some people might cheat with 16 and wont with 17, because they replaced juvenile thoughtlessness with a more distinct sense for fairness. Or they moved away from an attention seeking, obsessed personality, to a much more calm, mature and laid-back personality.
Personally, reimus apology-video seemed genuine to me (at least the subs, ehehe). I find this whole "people never change"-argument to be plainly wrong. People change all the time and with them their motivations.

On hacker-tracking, thats a fair point again. Although I don't think that it'd apply to reimu, because he streams. A lot.
But in other cases you are totally right, it does make things harder.

While I don't like the idea of unbanning cheaters, Reimu will bring some competition (and life) back to top 50. If he cheats again, he's banned again.

Besides, how does it affect you, the player?

Repr1se wrote:

While I don't like the idea of unbanning cheaters, Reimu will bring some competition (and life) back to top 50. If he cheats again, he's banned again.

Besides, how does it affect you, the player?

this is not so much about Reimu, but more about osu's anti-cheating policies.

Bad anti-cheating policies lead to useless leaderboards, and some people don't want their leaderboards to be useless. You are right that one hacker or not-hacker more won't make much of a difference in the grand-scheme. At least not for most people.

Railey2 wrote:

this is not so much about Reimu, but more about osu's anti-cheating policies.

Bad anti-cheating policies lead to useless leaderboards, and some people don't want their leaderboards to be useless. You are right that one hacker or not-hacker more won't make much of a difference in the grand-scheme. At least not for most people.

I got that, just thought I'd bring him up since he's obviously the one OP is discussing.

Osu's anti-cheat policy is pretty damn tough. Permanent hardware ban. It has kept Osu cheater-free. That's great. I do think the policy shouldn't be any less strict than it is.

But to discuss anti-cheating policy, we have to define who a cheater is. At what point does someone become a cheater? We know that there are cursordance/all-mod SS cheaters out there and can agree that they are cheaters. They cheat for their own pleasure. However, most don't regard C as a cheater. He did cheat, but it was a means for what he wanted: a ban. To me this is a gray area, and on a case-by-case basis.

Railey2 wrote:

Bad anti-cheating policies lead to useless leaderboards.

CSGO anyone?

Repr1se wrote:

But to discuss anti-cheating policy, we have to define who a cheater is. At what point does someone become a cheater? We know that there are cursordance/all-mod SS cheaters out there and can agree that they are cheaters. They cheat for their own pleasure. However, most don't regard C as a cheater. He did cheat, but it was a means for what he wanted: a ban. To me this is a gray area, and on a case-by-case basis.

Broadly, people who use nonofficial programs to alter their gameplay. We can go right ahead and define the subset of banworthy people that used programs of any sort to alter their gameplay.



From my perspective, we only want to ban players that make rankings useless and thereby ruin friendly competition/fun for others. If you look at this motive alone, this would legitimize all sorts of "offline-cheating", which seems reasonable at first. It doesn't collide with our primary motive at all, or does it?

With legalizing offline-cheating, and creating an environment of acceptance for programs that mess with the game, we lay the foundation for the rankings demise. When making programs accessible and acceptable for any sort of use, we do 2 things:
- we diminish the leap from people toying with the thought of cheating and people downloading hacks (due to higher accessibility)
- we diminish the leap from people possessing the hack and people using the hack (due to higher acceptability)
So yes, not punishing offline-cheating, or any other sort of cheating that has no or little effect on leaderboards, does have an effect on our primary motive. Indirectly.

To prevent this from happening, it is most effective to make hacks
- as inaccessible as possible
- establish a culture of disdain against any sort of cheating
- and, that goes without saying, max out on punishment-measures for the greatest deterrent effect

I believe that this was formerly done, the "zero-tolerance-policy".
If you view it from this perspective, people like C would rightfully get caught in the crossfire of zero-tolerance, even though they aren't the primary target.


The question is, is this really useful? For once, its easy because you don't have to listen to everyones explanation of why they cheated. It's also as effective as it gets if you want to keep cheaters away from your game.
It's not effective in terms of considering individual circumstances. It's horrible at that.


whoops, theres no tl;dr

Why bothering if someone did a bad thing in the past? People deserves a 2nd chance when appropriated. Nonsense to keep this thread open if that's not your business.