Note: Even if there is a WWG6 at some point, this is not the thread it will be in; this thread is for ruleset discussion only. (To quote the Simpsons Movie, "this is not a place where anything is or ever was.")

I had a feeling this would have to happen sooner or later.

With the untimely and disappointing early end of Werewolf Game 5, what currently appears to be an imbalance of power and a broken Ninja ruleset in Werewolf Game 6, and multiple complaints about the way I handle hosting, it has come time to have an open discussion regarding my Werewolf Game rules.

If and only if we can come to an agreement on the rules - both for main gameplay and for the roles - will I be hosting a sixth Werewolf Game on this forum.

I will shortly be copypasta'ing the current WWG5 ruleset in the post below; after this, I will make edits to it, starting with changes to the Ninja ruleset, and I will keep a log of all changes made in this post. All rulechange requests will be considered; I will consider all requests for changes, additions, and deletions (including roles).

If this discussion finishes anytime this century, maybe I'll start an epic WWG6.

...Maybe.

Changelog
* Added the Nighttime Queue section to the rules so you know how I handle things. (Suggestions appreciated.)
* Copypasta'ed my Note rules back in from the WWG4 ruleset (as I refused to do Notes in WWG5, but the rules must all be present here for fixing).
* Changed the Ninja ruleset to explicitly state that the Wolves always get their kill even if the Ninja successfully kills a Wolf.

Werewolf Game Rules

The Werewolf Game is a team game involving Humans and Wolves.

However, it is not a casual game; it is very involved and requires a commitment to play (similar to Monopoly). Players are required to sign up ahead of time to participate.

Table of Contents
Basic Premise
Basic How-It's-Played
In-Depth Explanation
Official Rules
Role List and Explanations

Basic Premise

There are several werewolves among a group of ordinary humans. The objective of the game is for the humans to figure out who the wolves are and kill them off before the wolves kill all the humans by voting on a lynching (public execution) each day to take place at dusk.

Basic How-It's-Played

On the first Day, the Host announces the scenario, and introduces the players. After that, play, put as simply as possible, progresses as follows:

Night
The Wolves kill a Human.

Dawn
The Humans awake to find the body of the player the Wolves killed.

Day
The Humans discuss who they think the Wolves are, and cast lynch votes for players they suspect are Wolves.

Dusk (aka Sundown)
The lynching takes place; the person with the most lynch votes against them is killed in a public execution. This is the humans' primary method for attempting to eliminate Wolves from the game.

This cycle repeats itself until the Humans are all dead (Wolf victory), or the Wolves are confirmed all dead by the remaining Humans waking up in the morning to find nobody died the previous night (Human victory).

In-Depth Explanation

A bit more interested? Here's everything you'll need to know. Sit down, this explanation is going to take a while (but it's so worth it once you start playing).

Signup
First, there's a signup period. The Host announces their intention to hold a Werewolf Game and tells everyone when the signup deadline is.

Players who wish to participate simply make a post stating that they'd like in.

The more people that sign up:

* The more Wolves there will be
* The more Auxiliary Roles will be used

Role Confirmation
After signups are closed, the Host randomly selects each player's role (see "Roles," below) and sends a Role ID to each player via Private Message (PM) (this means you need to have knowledge as to how PM'ing works before you play!!). This is the only positive proof you have of your role, and you cannot forward it to other players - it will result in getting kicked out of the game!!

Each player must send a PM to the Host which confirms that they have indeed received their Role ID (it is not necessary to name your role in your reply, although you can if you want).

With all players' roles confirmed, the Host begins the game proper.

Here's the detailed explanation as to what happens during the phases:

Dawn
Dawn of Day 1 is the introduction of the scenario by the Host.

Dawn of Day 2 and after, the Host informs the players who died during the night. That person is out of the game (they can't talk anymore, but they're certainly welcome to watch and see how the rest of the match goes).

Day
The Host announces when (in real time) Sundown is, and the players are free to say whatever they want until that time. ALL PLAYERS (Humans and Wolves!!) who are still alive must submit a lynch vote for a player they want killed before Sundown (if you don't, you get a "phantom vote" that counts against you the next day). (Just for the sake of clarification: Wolves must submit votes also, in order to remain unsuspicious; however, quite obviously, they're probably all going to vote for humans.)

Please see the Official Rules for more details on lynch voting and Phantom Votes.

Dusk (aka Sundown)
The Host tallies the votes, and whomever has the most votes against them is lynched. That player is out of the game. It is possible, under special circumstances, to get a lynching cancelled - see the "Roles" section for more on that.

Night
ALL PLAYERS must remain SILENT on the board during a Night phase. (You can still get in kahoots with other players via other private methods like PM at Night if you want, but you cannot speak on the board.) The Wolves PM each other and discuss who the kill will be tonight. The pack's spokeswolf will PM the Host, informing them who the target is.

Aux Roles who act at Night must also PM the Host to let them know if they will be exercising their ability that Night, and if so, on whom.

As I always give a Pencils Down post before announcing the day's lynch, there is NO EXCUSE for talking at Night: it will be punished by issuing a Phantom Vote.

Official Rules

This Host does have, and shall stick by, the rules here set forth, but let it not be assumed that the Host is not friendly (I'm very friendly ^.^). If you have any questions, or believe I should add or change a rule, please feel free to PM me.

Subsection 1: Lynch Voting Stipulations

Article 1: Vote Publicity
* Your vote MUST be publicly posted in the thread for all to see; this Host shall NOT accept votes by any other means (not PM, not IRC, AIM, MSN, or e-mail - nothing). As your vote must be public, it'd be wise to be sure of your decision.

Article 2: Vote Officiality
* This Host mandates that all votes must be cast in bold text in order to show the officiality of your vote (and so it catches this Host's eye). Any vote not cast as such shall not be considered official. It's pretty easy to bold text, but if you don't know how, you can always ask.

Article 3: Vote Alteration
* If you feel you've made a mistake with your vote, you may change your vote before Sundown arrives. Vote changes must also be cast in bold text to show that you are certain of your change. (It'd also be great if you could strike out your previous vote, so that if I feel I should do a re-count, I am reminded that you changed your mind.)

Article 4: Voting for Oneself
* If deemed tactically necessary, this Host grants players the right to vote for themselves if they're really sure they want to.

Article 5: Refusal to Vote
* If deemed tactically necessary, players are allowed to refuse to vote with the understanding that a refusal to vote will earn them a Phantom vote for the next day.

Subsection 2: Dynamics of Phantom Votes

Some do not understand what a Phantom Vote, also known by its abbreviation, "PV," is, or how it works; this subsection is here to lay out everything as simply as possible.

Article 1: Typical PV Allocation
* If you refuse to vote or fail to vote before Sundown, regardless of the reason, you will receive a Phantom Vote that will count against you the next Day phase. A PV holds the same amount of power as one vote cast against you by an actual player.

Article 2: Reprimand
* At the Host's discretion, Phantom Votes can be used to reprimand those who do not follow the rules of the Werewolf Game. Typically, one PV is assigned per infraction, but it can be more at the Host's discretion if the infraction is serious or is a repeat infraction.

Article 3: Non-Negotiability
* I will always double-check to assure someone truly has not voted or has refused to vote before officially assigning a PV, and thus PVs are not negotiable once they are officially assigned.

Article 4: Phantom Vote Carry-Over
* In the event that a lynching is cancelled, all Phantom Votes that were allocated for that day will instead carry over to the next Day phase that lynch votes are tallied on.

Subsection 3: Role Claims, PMs, and Alliances

Article 1: Forboding of Role ID Forwarding
* If any rule can be pointed at as the golden rule of the WWG, this is it. No player is at any time allowed to forward their Role ID to ANY other player for ANY reason, nor quote or screen-cap any part thereof (even if it doesn't positively identify their role). The Host will NEVER give permission to do it, so do not ask. If it can be proven that a player has forwarded any part of their Role ID in any manner, the Host shall kick that player out of the game IMMEDIATELY.

Article 2: Public Role Claims
* As long as 3-1 is followed, any player can publicly or privately claim to hold any role they want, including knowledge, be it true or false, they claim to have because of their role - in fact, it's part of the dynamics of playing this game.

Article 3: Formation of Alliances
* Players can form alliances if they like, through either public board or PM (although that's always risky, as you could be forming an alliance with a Wolf). Be careful what you say - keen observers will jump you if you say anything even remotely suspicious. (Even editing a post can result in suspicion.)

Article 4-A: Aux Role PMs to the Host
* If you are an Auxiliary Role required to PM me the name of a person you will perform an action on at Night, I stipulate that your first decision is final, so think about it before PM'ing me (the deadline is there to give you some time for thinking).

Article 4-B: Failure to PM at Night for Auxiliary Roles
* If an Auxiliary Role required to PM the Host fails to do so by the deadline, the Host will assume that Aux will not be taking action that Night.

Article 5-A: Werewolf PMs to the Host
* Please, please, please only one Wolf PM per Night phase. I give you several days so you can PM each other and discuss the matter. I do not want more than one Werewolf PM at Night; no Wolves second-guessing each other. The rule here will be the same as with Aux Roles: the first Wolf PM I receive that has a name on it will be the final kill decision for that Night.

Article 5-B: Failure to PM at Night for Werewolves
* If this occurs, I will take it upon myself to select a Human to kill. It will be random the first time, but if it happens more than once, as punishment for the tardy Wolves, the second and subsequent selections may purposely be a Civilian who does not hold an Aux Role.

Subsection 4: Death, Non-Participants and Talking

For further clarifications, see subsection 5, "Ghosts and Notes."

Article 1: Death by Lynching
* Some game themes allow those who are lynched final words. If it is allowed, you get ONE POST after I post your lynching to give final words, and that's it; after that, if you are dead, you cannot speak in the thread AT ALL anymore.

Article 2: Death by Nightkill
* If you're killed by roles which act at night (which is the Werewolves or a Ninja), you don't get final words, as you were killed at night when all other characters were presumably sleeping. If killed by the Wolves, no more talking in the thread for you.

Article 3: Death by Vigilante
* If you're killed by the Vigilante, as per Vigilante role rules, you are dead immediately, so it's up to the Vigilante whether to let you speak some kind of piece ahead of time; once they shoot you, you're done; no more talking in-thread.

Article 4: Non-Participants
* This Host has nothing against non-participants, and encourages all potential future players to watch the thread's activity. However, this Host stipulates that non-participants shall refrain from posting in the game's thread; if a non-participant has any questions, they may feel more than free to PM the Host or any players they wish to converse with.

Article 5: Removal of Illegal Posts
* Ordinarily, all posts, even stupid ones, are kept for the sole sake of helping players form opinions of each other. However, illegal posts (those made by non-participants after the Day 1 announcement that starts the actual game proper, and those made by dead players outside of "final words" posts authorized by the Host) shall be deleted by a moderator. No exceptions.

Subsection 5: Ghosts and Notes

If you've been killed, and perhaps even had no official opportunity for final words, but still wish to express wishes to the other players, PM me about it. I will decide on a case-by-case basis whether ghost sightings occur or whether your note will be passed along, although there will be some general rules:

Article 1: Ghost Sightings
* If you are dead and believe you have something important enough to say that you think it should warrant your ghost being sighted, PM me about it with what you'd like to say, and I will decide on a case-by-case basis whether your ghost will appear; if it does, I will make the post myself.

Article 2: Notes
* If you are dead and have written a note you believe will benefit the other Human players, PM it to me with what it will say, letting me know whether one individual will find it privately (I will PM it to them; you cannot stipulate who: I will choose randomly from among the remaining living Humans) or whether the note will be discovered publicly (I will post it in the thread).

Article 3: Time-, Chance-, or Character-Sensitive Notes
* This Host WILL NOT pass along any note that cites any kind of chances of being found based on time or luck, or can only be found by particular individuals (although I will accept notes that can only be found by the Coroner, as they investigate dead bodies; in which case, the note must be hidden on your person, ahead of time).

Article 4: Regarding Nightkills
* You may NOT author a note after a Werewolf or Ninja has killed you; the note must have been written before I got your kill PM from whomever killed you.

Subsection 6: Nighttime Action Queue/Priorities

Article 1: First In, First Out
* This Host's primary method for executing Night action PMs is a first-in, first-out basis; he whose PM arrives first is honored first. All PMs received are executed in the order they are received, with two notable exceptions seen in Articles 2 and 3.

Article 2: Guardian Angel Priority
* 2-A: If a game has a Guardian Angel, their PM stating who they are protecting is always queued as though it arrived before any/all Wolf/Ninja kill PMs so their target is protected from all kills.

* 2-B: Rule 2-A is void if the GA themselves is the target of a kill that Night (unless they're protecting themselves, of course).

* 2-C: If there is a Ninja present in the game as well as the Wolves, and one chooses to kill the GA's protect target while the other chooses to kill the GA themselves, then Article 1 takes priority (in other words, if the GA kill came in first, the GA's target will not be protected, but if the GA's target's kill came in first, then they will be protected, though the GA will still die after the successful protect).

Article 3: Dead Auxes and PMs
* Requests to perform an Aux Role action from any dead Aux Role holder shall be treated as though the PM never came in; dead Auxes cannot perform Night actions. This includes Auxes who were alive at the beginning of the Night, but whose PM arrived after they were killed by a Wolf or Ninja that Night.

Article 4: Private Nighttime Resurrection
* In the event that an Aux Role is privately resurrected by the Priest during a Night phase, if they wish to perform their Night action before the end of the Night, they must send a new PM to the Host between the time they were resurrected and the Night deadline. "Insurance" PMs sent by any dead Aux in anticipation of a possible resurrection before they get resurrected do not count and will be deleted.

Role List and Explanations

Some game themes call roles by different names; if this is the case, the Host shall detail any role name changes in advance so everyone will be informed.

(Were)Wolf
You kill humans; it's in your nature. At night, you gather with the other wolves and kill one person each night. (In some larger games, the Pack Leader role may be used; the Pack Leader can choose to "sniff" a Human each night to see if that Human holds an Auxiliary Role. In really big games, he might even be told what it is.)

Civilian
You're an ordinary human who does not hold an Auxiliary Role. Nothing you can do other than cast your lynch vote, really.

Anything other than "Civilian" is considered an Auxiliary ("Aux") Role, and is special and unique. The good thing is, having an Aux Role gives you an advantage. The bad thing is, sure, you could try to help the other Humans by telling them who you are (remember, you can't show them your Role ID), but they might not believe you, and the wolves might catch on and try to kill you.

Seer
You can sense danger. Each night, you must PM the Host and tell them whether you wish to exercise your ability (which is to know how many Wolves there are left). If so, in some large games, the Wolves may be informed it's happened (or even who you are). (You don't leave your house at Night, so you can't spot anyone else acting at Night.)

Psychic
You can see hidden talents in others (and the truth in Wolves). Each night, you must PM the Host and tell them whether you wish to exercise your ability (you'll be informed of that player's exact role). The Wolves might get informed if you do this, so look out! (There's a chance you might spot other roles that act the same Night you do, although that's pretty slim unless it's your target who's up and about.)

Coroner
You specialize in dead people. Via PM, each Dawn, you're told the exact role of the person the Wolves killed, and each Sundown, you're told the exact role of the player who got lynched. You can use the process of elimination to determine who's left. (You will not be spotting other roles that act at Night; you'll be too busy examining the body.)

Insomniac
You have trouble sleeping at night (who wouldn't with all this killing going on?). Each night, you must PM the Host and tell them whether you were able to sleep. If not, you will be informed of the NAME of one of the wolves, which will certainly help you rest easier!! The problem is, the Wolves might see you, too. Be careful. (You may also spot other roles that act on Nights you can't sleep.)

Unknown Celebrity
You're popular where you came from, but the other players don't know this. If you're killed by the Wolves, the players will find out in the newspaper the next day, and that day's lynching will be CANCELLED. This provides a valuable opportunity for the other players to say whatever they want without fear of getting lynched for it (in fact, some hosts, this one included, will extend the Sundown deadline to give the players more time to discuss things when this happens).

Vigilante
You were smart - you packed a GUN. Trouble is, you only have one bullet. Once you're sure you know who you want dead, during any Day phase, you can announce your role publicly, and shoot anyone you want (this MUST BE CONFIRMED BY THE HOST). That player is dead IMMEDIATELY (some Hosts might cancel the day's lynching for this, because someone's already been killed). You may no longer have your gun, but at least now the other players know for sure you're human!! Note: In some games, if the Vigilante is killed before he can use his weapon, another human might find it, and the role of Vigilante is added to any other Aux Role that player might have. ALSO: It is impossible for anyone to pretend to be the Vigilante. Why? If you try to declare a shot, and you're not the Vigilante, it backfires because a shot MUST be confirmed by the host.

Ninja
You are a free agent ninja. At night, you must PM the Host to tell them if you're doing any stealthy assassinating tonight. Regardless of whether you kill a Wolf or not, they still get their nightly kill (in other words, the Humans will wake up with two dead bodies in the morning). This can work great against Wolves, but, as you can do it multiple times, if you don't know what the heck you're doing, you can end up wiping out the humans FOR them. Ninjas may be cool, but don't overdo it. Be careful!! (Also, if other Aux Roles that perform actions at night, such as the Insomniac or Guardian Angel, happen to be up and about the same night you are, you'll be told what you saw on the way to your target.)

Guardian Angel
You have the heavenly ability to guard the lives of those around you. Each night, you must PM the Host telling them who, if anyone, you're protecting tonight. You can't protect the same person more than one night in a row (unless the Wolves or the Ninja choose that person to kill - in which case, that person does not die, and you can protect the same player again the next night). Sure, you can protect yourself, but why be greedy? Also, some games force you to blow your cover when a protection is successful. Be cautious. (This role may spot other Night-acting roles, but chances are slim unless their target is the same as yours and enters the house you're in; you'll be too busy watching the one you're guarding to look out the window.)

Priest
Just as the Vigilante can bring death, you can bring life. Once per game, anytime Day or Night, publicly or privately, you can bring back to life any player who was previously dead. Again, you can only use that ability one time, period. You can DEVESTATE the Wolf team if you bring back a well-informed Aux Role late in the game (such as the Coroner, the Psychic, or the Insomniac), but you could just as easily get the human team killed by unintentionally bringing back a Wolf. Be careful with this role.

Mad Scientist
You've got a vial (or perhaps several vials in larger games) of a DNA-altering compound. If you force this down someone's throat at night, it will, guaranteed, change them into something else. It could give them (or if they already had one, change) their Auxiliary Role, but it could just as easily change a Human into a Wolf, so be careful!! If you use it on a Wolf, they're gonna mutate and gain Aux Roles. (I can't have Wolves, who know who the other Wolves are, turning into Humans, as interesting as that'd be. That'd give the Humans TOO much of an advantage.) Chances and potential nature of changes vary from game to game.

Nighttime Co-Discovery
When multiple Night-acting roles happen to act on the same Night, this Host may sometimes allow Night-time wanderers or other observant roles (such as the Insomniac) to spot one or more of the others acting that Night (this usually utilizes the Progressive Discovery rules, below).

Progressive Discovery
For Auxiliary Roles that act at night, that might discover the identities of other roles that also act at night, this Host generally adopts a policy of Progressive Discovery; that is, using your ability once or twice generally informs the others of nothing, but using it enough times will result in fellow Night-acters being told of your existence (probably as a figure running around), and, eventually, exactly who you are. How quickly Progressive Discovery works depends on game size and which roles are involved.

First of all, I will make my first "real" post in this thread by saying the following:

All roles I use except for the two mentioned below are roles I have seen in others' WWGs in the past, and are part of official online rulesets.

* I personally created the Ninja role and its currently-broken ruleset.

* Saturos-Fangirl created the Mad Scientist role as a concept, I created its ruleset.

The Nighttime Progressive Discovery System may be in others' games, but I've never seen it in any WWG I've looked at (and I've never played Mafia, so I dunno if Mafia uses anything similar to it); as far as I am aware, the type of Progressive Discovery I am using is of my own design.

Also, I am aware of the existence of the Lovers role; one Human and one Wolf whose aux is Lover. Basically, Lover rules state that if it just so happens that the human Lover and the wolf Lover are the only two players remaining alive, neither can bring themselves to kill the other and the game ends in a tie, confirmed by the Host.

Other than what I've stated here and what you see in the rules above, I am not aware of any other roles that may be in other WWGs; if you have fair suggestions, let me know.

wait the Lovers role is real I thought that was just a joke from that one game

Oh, it's real alright. I've seen it in several online rulesets. I just don't use it 'cuz the chances of it actually happening are ludicrously low.

I'm not going to read that wall of text, but I think what most people want is for all night actions to effectively happen at dawn. If I scan night 1 and the wolves pm you to night kill me, that would make me die without being able to scan.

I also read in irc that people want shorter days, and with the lack of activity towards the end of wwg5 that makes sense to consider.

Also ninja as a role is bad to include. It's one thing to have a vigilante that can kill one person whenever they want, but to have a human that could potentially kill every other human is too much.

Andd on behalf of Rolled I will post that he wants roles like insomniac and psychic to be revealed to the wolves after the second use of their ability. If this was to be put in the game, though, the ability to sniff might need to be removed/restricted.

Would be neat to have an Alpha-wolf role. Sort of like the Wolf/w Aux role. Though there may have to be a discussion about what can the Alpha-wolves have.
Also, if there are less than 15 people, we could do Deathmatch rules:
Deathmatch rules


1-Day and Night will be in intervals of 24 hours each
2-You only get 1 vote. One.You can not change your vote after you put someone's name as a vote, so make it count.
3-As soon as Night starts, the Werewolves must each submit a vote, again they may only subit it once without a change
4-At the result of a stalemate, the Host will decide who will be lynched/Nightkilled(depending on the time)from the people with the most votes.
5-There will only be 1 Aux. Role, the Seer. The person who gets this role will be able to check 2 people per Night. However, if they discover a Wolf, then the Werewolves will be informed of that person's role.
-------------------------------------
^From my WWG since I curently have 8 perticipants. Doubt too many people will play with the broken roles though

The faceman and I (and I guess LS and some others) have discussed a from-scratch rule and role set for WWG7 (which I'd likely host). This has been up a while, but no suggestions/changes have been made (though I'm not sure if anyone has read it ...) : http://j.mp/anNFTr

Oyashiro, some notes on your suggestions:

Alpha Wolf suggestion: We do have something like an Alpha Wolf role, it's called Wolf Pack Leader. I have used this in several of my games, and that role possesses the Human equivalent of the Psychic role, which is the traditional ability given to Wolf Pack Leaders in typical WWG rulesets.

1) 24-hour Days will NEVER work. We have a lot of people in different timezones here (not to mention people who don't visit the forum every five minutes to check for updates). If anything ever gets cut to single days, it would be Night phases for small games.

2) Some games do disallow vote changes; I allow them because I'm nice and opinions can change in the middle of the Day. (I did away with the Suspicion Counter because it was more or less meaningless; however, it "punished" repeated votechanges, and I would still feel more comfortable if I had some way to "punish" repeated votechanges just so people couldn't "lolvotechange" 8 times in one Day.)

3) I've considered the Wolf vote thing before, and there's a possibility it could work in any game (not just a deathmatch). I'm guessing it would work like a Night version of Daytime lynch votes, which is reasonable. However, I still prefer a Wolf team that works together and discusses things, which is the way things should be.

4) As Host, it is not my duty to decide kills (the Wolves/Vigs/Ninjas are supposed to be the deciders, assuming they do their jobs); therefore, I try to rule as much as possible against anything where I might be forced to make a kill decision. However, in the event of a legitimate tie, I am sadly forced to make the decision via random drawing/coinflip/whatever.

5) The Seer does not see roles, they see the number of Wolves remaining. You are speaking of the Psychic role. Anyway, under your proposed Deathmatch rules, I can see a Psychic getting 2 scans per Night with immediate discovery if they find a Wolf. However, I don't think I'd ever do a Deathmatch (unless there was a majority vote?), and in an ordinary game, I would never give the Psychic more than one scan per Night.

strager: The two of us have been more or less butting heads on several issues in my rules for a while now, and, I'll be honest, it would seem to me that you are more qualified to run a Werewolf Game than I am. The fact that you and Faceguy have come up with a ruleset already is just more proof of that to me. Maybe after the conclusion of WWG5, I should just retire from hosting WWGs on the Osu forums and let you do it instead (I'll just host elsewhere, like waiting my turn in MotK's obscenely long queue). Hell, this might even mean I might actually play a WWG here for once. ...or not, Iunno.

Either way, I've been questioning my ability to host for a while now anyway, both rule-wise and personality-wise. I like hosting, I really do, but every time I host a new game here, something else is broken, or someone finds another loophole, or we go back and forth on whether or not I've confirmed someone's role or not in my banter. Hosting Werewolf Games here on Osu has become less fun and more of a chore for me as late, so I decided that if I was going to bother hosting here again, I might as well let everyone give input on the rules until everyone was happy that everything was covered (and covered properly and fairly) so that when I did host again, there'd be minimal possible opportunity for anything to go wrong.

However, the fact that you're more capable than I simply assures me even more that if I do stop hosting here, it will be no major loss, as you will do a better job than, currently speaking, I ever could.

Besides, there are how many Mafia games going on right now in addition to my Werewolf Game? This place's got more than enough involved games going on, with capable hosts. Maybe it's time I found another forum to host on.

Possibility of wolves having a roleblocker instead of a sniffer could be nice.
Also you need to put a bit more attention in to the roles that are actually PM'd to people since they sometimes leave out entire pieces of info on the role and abilities in exchange for character.

Seconding the addition of a wolf roleblocker.

I already have a Wolf roleblocker in my set.

Ace Of Hearts wrote:

Osu

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

You broke the poor guy, strager.

How do you feel?

Ace Of Hearts wrote:

Official Rules

This Host does have, and shall stick by, the rules here set forth, but let it not be assumed that the Host is not friendly (I'm very friendly ^.^). If you have any questions, or believe I should add or change a rule, please feel free to PM me.

Subsection 1: Lynch Voting Stipulations

Article 1: Vote Publicity
* Your vote MUST be publicly posted in the thread for all to see; this Host shall NOT accept votes by any other means (not PM, not IRC, AIM, MSN, or e-mail - nothing). As your vote must be public, it'd be wise to be sure of your decision.

Article 2: Vote Officiality
* This Host mandates that all votes must be cast in bold text in order to show the officiality of your vote (and so it catches this Host's eye). Any vote not cast as such shall not be considered official. It's pretty easy to bold text, but if you don't know how, you can always ask.

Article 3: Vote Alteration
* If you feel you've made a mistake with your vote, you may change your vote before Sundown arrives. Vote changes must also be cast in bold text to show that you are certain of your change. (It'd also be great if you could strike out your previous vote, so that if I feel I should do a re-count, I am reminded that you changed your mind.)

Article 4: Voting for Oneself
* If deemed tactically necessary, this Host grants players the right to vote for themselves if they're really sure they want to.

Article 5: Refusal to Vote
* If deemed tactically necessary, players are allowed to refuse to vote with the understanding that a refusal to vote will earn them a Phantom vote for the next day.

Article 6: Voting for a No-Lynch
I don't know if there have been any precedents, but it would do town a big favor to just vote no one day one. See, for instance, WWG2, where we accidentally offed the priest day 1, which lead to game three being bsuted and whatnot. Is no-lynching allowed by your rules, and if so, how should we indicate or count those votes?

Subsection 2: Dynamics of Phantom Votes

Some do not understand what a Phantom Vote, also known by its abbreviation, "PV," is, or how it works; this subsection is here to lay out everything as simply as possible.
Article 1: Typical PV Allocation
regardless of the reason, you will receive a Phantom Vote that will count against you the next Day phase. A PV holds the same amount of power as one vote cast against you by an actual player.

Article 2: Reprimand
* At the Host's discretion, Phantom Votes can be used to reprimand those who do not follow the rules of the Werewolf Game. Typically, one PV is assigned per infraction, but it can be more at the Host's discretion if the infraction is serious or is a repeat infraction.

Article 3: Non-Negotiability
* I will always double-check to assure someone truly has not voted or has refused to vote before officially assigning a PV, and thus PVs are not negotiable once they are officially assigned. However, Todesengal got a wrongly administered PV in Game 5. If you really double-check, how can that happen?

Article 4: Phantom Vote Carry-Over
* In the event that a lynching is cancelled, all Phantom Votes that were allocated for that day will instead carry over to the next Day phase that lynch votes are tallied on.

Subsection 3: Role Claims, PMs, and Alliances

Article 1: Forboding of Role ID Forwarding
* If any rule can be pointed at as the golden rule of the WWG, this is it. No player is at any time allowed to forward their Role ID to ANY other player for ANY reason, nor quote or screen-cap any part thereof (even if it doesn't positively identify their role). The Host will NEVER give permission to do it, so do not ask. If it can be proven that a player has forwarded any part of their Role ID in any manner, the Host shall kick that player out of the game IMMEDIATELY. I remember one certain game being broken due to the not enforcing of this rule and coercing people to quote parts of it. Can you also note that deliberately asking for people's role PM should also be a kickable offense, as it is an intention to break the rules.

Article 2: Public Role Claims
* As long as 3-1 is followed, any player can publicly or privately claim to hold any role they want, including knowledge, be it true or false, they claim to have because of their role - in fact, it's part of the dynamics of playing this game.

Article 3: Formation of Alliances
* Players can form alliances if they like, through either public board or PM (although that's always risky, as you could be forming an alliance with a Wolf). Be careful what you say - keen observers will jump you if you say anything even remotely suspicious. (Even editing a post can result in suspicion.)

Article 4-A: Aux Role PMs to the Host
* If you are an Auxiliary Role required to PM me the name of a person you will perform an action on at Night, I stipulate that your first decision is final, so think about it before PM'ing me (the deadline is there to give you some time for thinking).

Article 4-B: Failure to PM at Night for Auxiliary Roles
* If an Auxiliary Role required to PM the Host fails to do so by the deadline, the Host will assume that Aux will not be taking action that Night. I would like to see this rule reinvented. How about wolves or aux roles having not yet sent a PM get a 24-hour notification before nighttime is over, in order to remind them they still have an aux role to fill in.

Article 5-A: Werewolf PMs to the Host
* Please, please, please only one Wolf PM per Night phase. I give you several days so you can PM each other and discuss the matter. I do not want more than one Werewolf PM at Night; no Wolves second-guessing each other. The rule here will be the same as with Aux Roles: the first Wolf PM I receive that has a name on it will be the final kill decision for that Night. The final part here sort of goes against the 'spokes-wolf' section in the werewolf role PM. Please either choose wether you want one assigned person sending the commands, or just any wolf, first-come-first-serve.

Article 5-B: Failure to PM at Night for Werewolves
* If this occurs, I will take it upon myself to select a Human to kill. It will be random the first time, but if it happens more than once, as punishment for the tardy Wolves, the second and subsequent selections may purposely be a Civilian who does not hold an Aux Role.

Subsection 4: Death, Non-Participants and Talking

For further clarifications, see subsection 5, "Ghosts and Notes."

Article 1: Death by Lynching
* Some game themes allow those who are lynched final words. If it is allowed, you get ONE POST after I post your lynching to give final words, and that's it; after that, if you are dead, you cannot speak in the thread AT ALL anymore. I more or less stepped on LadySuburu's toes once in Newbie Mafia... 6, I believe? In that game, by the first letters of every sentence in my final words, I spelled out the name of one of the mafia, Lucidity. Would you condone such hidden messages for town, or do you frown upon them?

Article 2: Death by Nightkill
* If you're killed by roles which act at night (which is the Werewolves or a Ninja), you don't get final words, as you were killed at night when all other characters were presumably sleeping. If killed by the Wolves, no more talking in the thread for you.

Article 3: Death by Vigilante
* If you're killed by the Vigilante, as per Vigilante role rules, you are dead immediately, so it's up to the Vigilante whether to let you speak some kind of piece ahead of time; once they shoot you, you're done; no more talking in-thread.

Article 4: Non-Participants
* This Host has nothing against non-participants, and encourages all potential future players to watch the thread's activity. However, this Host stipulates that non-participants shall refrain from posting in the game's thread; if a non-participant has any questions, they may feel more than free to PM the Host or any players they wish to converse with.

Article 5: Removal of Illegal Posts
* Ordinarily, all posts, even stupid ones, are kept for the sole sake of helping players form opinions of each other. However, illegal posts (those made by non-participants after the Day 1 announcement that starts the actual game proper, and those made by dead players outside of "final words" posts authorized by the Host) shall be deleted by a moderator. No exceptions.

Article 6: Revealing Roles upon Death
Does it happen Y/N?
Subsection 5: Ghosts and Notes

If you've been killed, and perhaps even had no official opportunity for final words, but still wish to express wishes to the other players, PM me about it. I will decide on a case-by-case basis whether ghost sightings occur or whether your note will be passed along, although there will be some general rules:

Article 1: Ghost Sightings
* If you are dead and believe you have something important enough to say that you think it should warrant your ghost being sighted, PM me about it with what you'd like to say, and I will decide on a case-by-case basis whether your ghost will appear; if it does, I will make the post myself.

Article 2: Notes
* If you are dead and have written a note you believe will benefit the other Human players, PM it to me with what it will say, letting me know whether one individual will find it privately (I will PM it to them; you cannot stipulate who: I will choose randomly from among the remaining living Humans) or whether the note will be discovered publicly (I will post it in the thread).

Article 3: Time-, Chance-, or Character-Sensitive Notes
* This Host WILL NOT pass along any note that cites any kind of chances of being found based on time or luck, or can only be found by particular individuals (although I will accept notes that can only be found by the Coroner, as they investigate dead bodies; in which case, the note must be hidden on your person, ahead of time).

Article 4: Regarding Nightkills
* You may NOT author a note after a Werewolf or Ninja has killed you; the note must have been written before I got your kill PM from whomever killed you. Should the note also already be sent to you before the kill? Because if so, notes can quickly become outdated, and if not, 'written before your dying' gets subjective.

Subsection 6: Nighttime Action Queue/Priorities

Article 1: First In, First Out
* This Host's primary method for executing Night action PMs is a first-in, first-out basis; he whose PM arrives first is honored first. All PMs received are executed in the order they are received, with two notable exceptions seen in Articles 2 and 3. I think this is mostly the system that needs changing. Especially with the fact all aux roles handle on their own, and need little to no time overthinking their decision, while the wolves have gone up to eight in previous games, and their decision is a lot more critical.
I suggest implementing, as strager already said, a priority system for incoming PMs.

Article 2: Guardian Angel Priority
* 2-A: If a game has a Guardian Angel, their PM stating who they are protecting is always queued as though it arrived before any/all Wolf/Ninja kill PMs so their target is protected from all kills.

* 2-B: Rule 2-A is void if the GA themselves is the target of a kill that Night (unless they're protecting themselves, of course).

* 2-C: If there is a Ninja present in the game as well as the Wolves, and one chooses to kill the GA's protect target while the other chooses to kill the GA themselves, then Article 1 takes priority (in other words, if the GA kill came in first, the GA's target will not be protected, but if the GA's target's kill came in first, then they will be protected, though the GA will still die after the successful protect).

Article 3: Dead Auxes and PMs
* Requests to perform an Aux Role action from any dead Aux Role holder shall be treated as though the PM never came in; dead Auxes cannot perform Night actions. This includes Auxes who were alive at the beginning of the Night, but whose PM arrived after they were killed by a Wolf or Ninja that Night.

Article 4: Private Nighttime Resurrection
* In the event that an Aux Role is privately resurrected by the Priest during a Night phase, if they wish to perform their Night action before the end of the Night, they must send a new PM to the Host between the time they were resurrected and the Night deadline. "Insurance" PMs sent by any dead Aux in anticipation of a possible resurrection before they get resurrected do not count and will be deleted. Does the Aux role in question get a PM from the Host telling them they are again alive, or is it the Priest's job to contact them?

Role List and Explanations

Some game themes call roles by different names; if this is the case, the Host shall detail any role name changes in advance so everyone will be informed.

(Were)Wolf
You kill humans; it's in your nature. At night, you gather with the other wolves and kill one person each night. (In some larger games, the Pack Leader role may be used; the Pack Leader can choose to "sniff" a Human each night to see if that Human holds an Auxiliary Role. In really big games, he might even be told what it is.)

Civilian
You're an ordinary human who does not hold an Auxiliary Role. Nothing you can do other than cast your lynch vote, really.

Anything other than "Civilian" is considered an Auxiliary ("Aux") Role, and is special and unique. The good thing is, having an Aux Role gives you an advantage. The bad thing is, sure, you could try to help the other Humans by telling them who you are (remember, you can't show them your Role ID), but they might not believe you, and the wolves might catch on and try to kill you.

Seer
You can sense danger. Each night, you must PM the Host and tell them whether you wish to exercise your ability (which is to know how many Wolves there are left). If so, in some large games, the Wolves may be informed it's happened (or even who you are). (You don't leave your house at Night, so you can't spot anyone else acting at Night.)

Psychic
You can see hidden talents in others (and the truth in Wolves). Each night, you must PM the Host and tell them whether you wish to exercise your ability (you'll be informed of that player's exact role). The Wolves might get informed if you do this, so look out! (There's a chance you might spot other roles that act the same Night you do, although that's pretty slim unless it's your target who's up and about.)
This has been bugging me for a while now, and has been mentioned before too. How exactly do you decide that slim chance? Is it like rolling a nat20 or is it getting heads in flipping a coin?
Coroner
You specialize in dead people. Via PM, each Dawn, you're told the exact role of the person the Wolves killed, and each Sundown, you're told the exact role of the player who got lynched. You can use the process of elimination to determine who's left. (You will not be spotting other roles that act at Night; you'll be too busy examining the body.) If this role gets revived later on the game, will he get the info on all the bodies so far, only the lynched bodies, only those he was around to investigate, ...?

Insomniac
You have trouble sleeping at night (who wouldn't with all this killing going on?). Each night, you must PM the Host and tell them whether you were able to sleep. If not, you will be informed of the NAME of one of the wolves, which will certainly help you rest easier!! The problem is, the Wolves might see you, too. Be careful. (You may also spot other roles that act on Nights you can't sleep.) In game 1, I got a PM saying something about a rustling in the bushes, instead of the actual name of the insomniac. If this can also happen, and happens regularly, I'd like to see it added in this article as per completion.

Unknown Celebrity
You're popular where you came from, but the other players don't know this. If you're killed by the Wolves, the players will find out in the newspaper the next day, and that day's lynching will be CANCELLED. This provides a valuable opportunity for the other players to say whatever they want without fear of getting lynched for it (in fact, some hosts, this one included, will extend the Sundown deadline to give the players more time to discuss things when this happens).

Vigilante
You were smart - you packed a GUN. Trouble is, you only have one bullet. Once you're sure you know who you want dead, during any Day phase, you can announce your role publicly, and shoot anyone you want (this MUST BE CONFIRMED BY THE HOST). That player is dead IMMEDIATELY (some Hosts might cancel the day's lynching for this, because someone's already been killed). You may no longer have your gun, but at least now the other players know for sure you're human!! Note: In some games, if the Vigilante is killed before he can use his weapon, another human might find it, and the role of Vigilante is added to any other Aux Role that player might have. ALSO: It is impossible for anyone to pretend to be the Vigilante. Why? If you try to declare a shot, and you're not the Vigilante, it backfires because a shot MUST be confirmed by the host.

Ninja
You are a free agent ninja. At night, you must PM the Host to tell them if you're doing any stealthy assassinating tonight. Regardless of whether you kill a Wolf or not, they still get their nightly kill (in other words, the Humans will wake up with two dead bodies in the morning). This can work great against Wolves, but, as you can do it multiple times, if you don't know what the heck you're doing, you can end up wiping out the humans FOR them. Ninjas may be cool, but don't overdo it. Be careful!! (Also, if other Aux Roles that perform actions at night, such as the Insomniac or Guardian Angel, happen to be up and about the same night you are, you'll be told what you saw on the way to your target.) This role has been broken since the very beginning. The very fact of wolves not getting their kill entirely breaks the game when combined with an Insomniac getting multiple names in the course of the game. A priority system, alongside a nerfing of the Ninja role is in order.

Guardian Angel
You have the heavenly ability to guard the lives of those around you. Each night, you must PM the Host telling them who, if anyone, you're protecting tonight. You can't protect the same person more than one night in a row (unless the Wolves or the Ninja choose that person to kill - in which case, that person does not die, and you can protect the same player again the next night). Sure, you can protect yourself, but why be greedy? Also, some games force you to blow your cover when a protection is successful. Be cautious. (This role may spot other Night-acting roles, but chances are slim unless their target is the same as yours and enters the house you're in; you'll be too busy watching the one you're guarding to look out the window.)

Priest
Just as the Vigilante can bring death, you can bring life. Once per game, anytime Day or Night, publicly or privately, you can bring back to life any player who was previously dead. Again, you can only use that ability one time, period. You can DEVESTATE the Wolf team if you bring back a well-informed Aux Role late in the game (such as the Coroner, the Psychic, or the Insomniac), but you could just as easily get the human team killed by unintentionally bringing back a Wolf. Be careful with this role.

Mad Scientist
You've got a vial (or perhaps several vials in larger games) of a DNA-altering compound. If you force this down someone's throat at night, it will, guaranteed, change them into something else. It could give them (or if they already had one, change) their Auxiliary Role, but it could just as easily change a Human into a Wolf, so be careful!! If you use it on a Wolf, they're gonna mutate and gain Aux Roles. (I can't have Wolves, who know who the other Wolves are, turning into Humans, as interesting as that'd be. That'd give the Humans TOO much of an advantage.) Chances and potential nature of changes vary from game to game. Of course, this article needs a little expansion of what could happen if a Mad Scientist downs his own vials. Does this effect the odds of worl- or Aux mutation?

Nighttime Co-Discovery
When multiple Night-acting roles happen to act on the same Night, this Host may sometimes allow Night-time wanderers or other observant roles (such as the Insomniac) to spot one or more of the others acting that Night (this usually utilizes the Progressive Discovery rules, below).

Progressive Discovery
For Auxiliary Roles that act at night, that might discover the identities of other roles that also act at night, this Host generally adopts a policy of Progressive Discovery; that is, using your ability once or twice generally informs the others of nothing, but using it enough times will result in fellow Night-acters being told of your existence (probably as a figure running around), and, eventually, exactly who you are. How quickly Progressive Discovery works depends on game size and which roles are involved. This has been irking me a bit, as mentioned before, because we don't really know when or how this is decided. It could just as easily be the host trying to edge the game in one direction.

Also, stop acting like a grammar nazi, Strager.

If I may,

I think experimenting with new roles may be done, but once we know that they're imbalanced, we should scrap them.

I've been following WWG5 and that's what I saw.

Progressive Discovery: For each role, in the role PM state the percentage chance of discovery. (GA: 100% upon success. Insomniac: 0% night one, 30% night two...) ect...

Lovers: The only good lovers role I've ever seen is where the Human and Wolf lovers know who eachother are, if one dies the other commits suicide the following night. Lovers win either with their lover or with their team. (They can still win when dead, they just win with their team.) (Due to WWG rules, lovers PMing eachother or not doesn't matter, it's allowed in WWG anyway.)

Ninja: I had an idea for a similar role, it's either a more powerful Vig with a drawback or a nerfed Ninja. Still can be broken but meh. (Samurai: Can kill once per night - Commits suicide if the target he kills turns out to be human.)

Hidden messages: Only while alive. Never while dead. Wojjan. -.-

Roles upon death: Depends on host, but if so there's no Coroner role. The two are independant.

Notes: No notes. You can continue to post so long as your death scene has not been posted yet.

PM actions: I spoke on this in my post last game. It works smoother if all night actions recieved are completed, but makes being prompt more importaint if you take them as recieved. Taking as recieved goes against having days longer so people won't miss anything.

Night Ressurection: Honestly, I believe no night actions that night for them. If it's the coroner that's revived, he can check ALL the bodies the next night, but the ressurected cannot act the night they are revived. This makes day resurrections actually useful.

Psychic: Should not notice other roles that are up at night. If you really want to do that, have the psychic notice only roles that use their power on the psychic's target. (Ninja coincidence kill, ect...)

Coroner: Stated above. (Recieves info about all dead bodies the night after being revived.)

Insomniac: Should have a high progressive discovery rate. 0% First attempt, but very high on subsequent attempts.

Unknown Celebrety: I've never liked this role. It's basically a role to give the wolves a benefit. The so called "Free talk" just means you're liable for what you said the next day. Nix this role and give the wolves the roleblocker if you really want to have them more powerful. Nobody likes getting this role.

GA: Cannot protect the same person twice in a row. Is discovered upon success. This solves most problems around GA pairing with an aux.

Priest: Stated above. Revive happens at end of night when done at night, revived role cannot act upon aux actions. This makes day revives more useful.

Mad Scientist: Nerf/Buff - Give him one vial that he knows what it does. If used on an aux it fails. (Which means, no using on himself. Though, Wolves with no powers can still recieve it.)


More later if I think of anything.

Ace, I take it you never went to that very helpful place I mentioned? If you're thinking about giving up modding, it may help you to find these people or to play around in this chatroom until you get a sense of role interactions. It seems like MOST of your problem is coming, not from the roles themselves, but from the way that two roles interact with each other.