The subject field isn't long enough, Please read the next sentences to (maybe) understand what this proposed rule is.
I'm talking about only omitting fictional character names when the artist field itself provides both. Otherwise we should be using the field as normal. This does NOT inlcude fictional band names as the artist field already credits the group as is. (Example: Dethklok would remain as Dethklok, and not use the real name singers or band members names in the field)

For example. Let's take this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/495497

The artist field is currently:
佐倉千代 (CV:小澤亜李)
Sakura Chiyo (CV:Ozawa Ari)

The proposed request is to remove "佐倉千代 (CV:)/Sakura Chiyo (CV:)" from the field, leaving the artist field as simply "小澤亜李/Ozawa Ari"

佐倉千代/Sakura Chiyo is the name of this fictional character from 月刊少女野崎くん / GEKKAN SHOJO NOZAKI KUN. Basically because she's not a real person, it doesn't really make sense to credit her in the artist field. The tags are more than enough for this.

Reasonings:
- It saves space! Sometimes if you get 4 or more singers like in Souzou Diary, the length of the artist field becomes extremely long.

- It makes the field easy to understand. Have excess amounts of names when it isn't needed can be confusing on who the real artist is.

This rule has always been something we usually do anyways, but it would be great if this was finalized so we don't have to worry about including them.

Fictional character names should be omitted from the artist field if official sources list both fictional characters and their corresponding non-fictional artists. This is to avoid confusion regarding who the real performer is, and to avoid excessively long artist names. In cases where a group name is provided, that should be used in place of its members.

This actually makes a lot of sense so why not. I wonder why is this not added yet. lol

Holy shit, I was thinking about this literally seconds before I saw this thread.

I'd write the rule like this, though:

If the song is part of a franchise or work and the artist credited as the performer of the song is a combination of the name of a fictional character in the franchise and the name of the character's voice actor, solely use the voice actor's name in the artist field. This is in order to keep the length of the artist more reasonable.

I personally feel quite weird to have a character's name written alongside the VA's name. It just feels redundant for some reason, and also awkward to see.

It'd also be nice if, in case the credited artist is simply a character without his/her VA's name, the artist credited in osu! should be the VA too, since he/she is the one who really did the work, but that's for another day's discussion, I guess.

Does there even need to be a rule for this?
I think it's kinda Obvious, but I can understand why someone does it
You mean in a Anime/Series/Movies (High School Musical is a perfect example) the character singing should not be credited, but the real person(, the actor)
This should be kinda Obvious, but I really agree with this!
The character name must go into tags then (right?)

I'm all for this suggestion.
Even if the official site shows the artist in the format such as "Character (CV: VoiceActor), Character starring. VoiceActor", only the voice actor who is the real singer should be added to the Artist field. By the way, we (iirc, Nyquill, NoHitter and me? hmm..forgot..) have discussed something similar when this beatmap got ranked.

baraatje123 wrote:

Does there even need to be a rule for this?
I think it's kinda Obvious, but I can understand why someone does it
You mean in a Anime/Series/Movies (High School Musical is a perfect example) the character singing should not be credited, but the real person(, the actor)
This should be kinda Obvious, but I really agree with this!
The character name must go into tags then (right?)

Yes, you are right.

swapped to Hinsvar's quote. Thanks!

I think this needs to be more specific. There are fictional bands (for example, Dethklok) which should be left as the Artist, instead of the actual composers (since that's official too). This rule would forbid the use of that name, when it's actually wrong.

As for the artist length, it's kinda difficult to say in my opinion. When using Japanese kanji, the artist name is much shorter compared to the romanized version. I'd personally be much happier if we could introduce more bloat into the Artist field (lol), which is active if the artist's name is too long, so it can be shortened somehow.

Lanturn wrote:

This rule has always been something we usually do anyways, but it would be great if this was finalized so we don't have to worry about including them.

If this was something that was already being done (common sense), why not continue doing it? It will go through modding process and when it's getting ranked you could just do what you did always then. Making a rule which is set in stone can hurt the other side of the edge cases, or the cases which are extremely difficult to define, which in turn can lead to a really confusing wording and that won't help anyone.

Also, no offense to Hinsvar's quote, however that wording is quite confusing because people who don't understand English well won't understand a thing like that.

Does this apply to the "feat. Vocaloid"?

I think there is a better example for fictional but existing band, Girls Dead Monster. It appears in Angel Beats as a fictional band so we should use the singer's names (LiSA and Marina) for every song related to this band (Crow Song for example) but in reality, the band itself is existing. This is again a special case and with this rule these will be forbidden.

I'm in adding this but we need to be more specific with the wording. Something like an example would be nice as there was one in the previous example. And this is mainly for character songs so that can be mentioned as well.

And yeah, its a little bit hard to understand the new wording. o.o

lolcubes wrote:

Also, no offense to Hinsvar's quote, however that wording is quite confusing because people who don't understand English well won't understand a thing like that.

Well I do realize that I'm still pretty bad at wording on things like this. I tried D:

You're right about the Dethklok case, though... I don't really have any idea about an RC wording that can accomodate the existence of them

Let's try to think of something...

EDIT: Uuuuuh.

In cases when characters from a franchise or work are credited as an artist (performer) of the song, combined with their voice actor's name, solely use the name of their voice actor. This is to allow more space on the Artist field and to avoid making people confused about who is the real performer of the song.
Exceptions can be made for characters that are intentionally advertised or promoted as the artist of the song by the staff behind the franchise.

I think this is simpler. Probably still kinda hard to comprehend, especially the end (I only solved the first half lol). I think I need a lot of help to simplify this

Also, I know the exception sentence still looks ambiguous, since, when the discography page in the franchise's official page, for example, shows the character's name alongside the VA's, it will most likely make people think that it means the producers of the franchise are pushing them to be credited as the artist, which is... contradictory with what thisbrule wanted to achieve.

Just take this as me trying to write a rough draft to give ideas to people.

lolcubes wrote:

Lanturn wrote:

This rule has always been something we usually do anyways, but it would be great if this was finalized so we don't have to worry about including them.

If this was something that was already being done (common sense), why not continue doing it? It will go through modding process and when it's getting ranked you could just do what you did always then. Making a rule which is set in stone can hurt the other side of the edge cases, or the cases which are extremely difficult to define, which in turn can lead to a really confusing wording and that won't help anyone.

I'll just repeat this.

When you are creating a rule, you want it to be perfect. You can't make this rule perfect. Suggesting (as a rule) to put wrong information into the Artist field is wrong.
My point was, if the Artist was too long or caused problems, it should be handled on a case per case basis (it's extremely rare as well). It goes through the modding process anyway. Why enforce something that isn't correct into situations where it's not even necessary?

Yeah. This proposed rule has nothing to do with fictional band names at all. I'll attempt to reword this as best I can, but I'm only talking about what the artist field itself provides. If it only provides Dethklok, then it'll get credited to Dethklok as it's the band name. If it only provides stuff like 佐倉千代 (CV:小澤亜李) where the artist field itself contains both the fictional character and the real life person, then the fictional name would be removed. That's all the rule was meant to be. We go by Bands > Vocalists anyways in 99% of cases in the artist field.

vvvvv More examples below vvvvv

Anyways @ Kurokami for Girls Demo stuff. You credit them as the CD or website does.
Let's try this one:
一番の宝物～Yui final ver.～
Ichiban no Takaramono~Yui final ver.~
http://puu.sh/faBJl.jpg
http://www.lxixsxa.com/disco/gdm.html
http://key.soundslabel.com/discography. ... 65/ksl0065
Artist field would be: Girls Dead Monster STARRING LiSA
It's really no different from how we look up metadata today. Kitamura Eri is the voice actor for Yui.
If this song was credited to and sang by her. It would probably be labeled like this:
Yui (CV:Kitamura Eri) | We would then remove Yui and only have the artist field as "Kitamura Eri"

Here's a complex example:
ツインテイルズ【テイルレッド（CV:上坂すみれ）、テイルブルー （CV:相坂優歌）、テイルイエロー（CV:赤﨑千夏）】
Twintails (Tail Red (CV:Sumire), Blue(CV:Another name here), Yellow(CV:real name here)

The band/group name is "Twintails" and it lists off who is in it. The Artist field would still be "Twintails" because that's the name of their band/group for this song.
If the song only provided, and didn't include a band name like so:
テイルレッド（CV:上坂すみれ）、テイルブルー （CV:相坂優歌）、テイルイエロー（CV:赤﨑千夏）
Then we would only be using the Voice Actress names. Sumire and the other two.

So.. how do I reword this to make sense? lol. Seems like this went off in the wrong direction from how it was intended. This is why I'm horrible with conveying new rules, even if they make perfect sense in my head.

Lanturn wrote:

Yeah. This proposed rule has nothing to do with fictional band names at all.

Might want to rename how it's called then.

I still think you are trying to address a problem in the wrong way though.
If an artist is officially determined somewhere, use that, regardless of it's length, complexity or even confusion it may cause. Out of respect towards their music, they should have the name they want in the Artist field, not what we try to make of it.
If it becomes a problem while using it, solve it on a case per case basis. The only real problem I see here is the length, because it can break things sometimes (unless it was fixed, I don't know this).

Lanturn wrote:

So.. how do I reword this to make sense?

That's why I think this rule is unnecessary. All these "problems" have to go through the modding process and are automatically checked. While the rule might make certain things easier for people, it may also bring unnecessary inconvenience (think of it as math, to get a result you have to include and exclude a lot, which in the end is more work than just going along with it).
Basically what happened here is that a rule is getting suggested which we can't even put into words. That's kinda awkward.

That's all I'm trying to say, if people disagree just carry on without me.

I agree with this proposed rule. Fictional character names included in artist make for unnecessary length and confusion.
For example: The length of this artist field following the official source looks kinda silly, and causes some issues like artist/title going off-screen in game.

I'm not sure if this captures your intended meaning, but maybe it can be worded like this:

Fictional character names should be omitted from the artist field if official sources list both fictional characters and their corresponding non-fictional artists. This is to avoid confusion regarding who the real performer is, and to avoid excessively long artist names. In cases where a group name is provided, that should be used in place of its members.

for the sake of all things

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3839103

桜江ゆすら(CV:下田麻美)&木滝恋子(CV:堀江由衣) / Sakurae Yusura(CV:Shimoda Asami) & Kitaki Renko(CV:Horie Yui)

I really don't want see this stupidly long artist (no offense ofc)

it's so long, you can't even see the title.

support CS16's wording, clearest to understand

Agree this.



Another reason that this rule needs is that when there are cases that Artist's name gets extremely long, the BSS doesn't allows a submit ;w;
An example from my beatmap : p/3733465
Artist : 鈴木結愛(CV 西明日香)/佐藤陽菜(CV 明坂聡美)/高橋葵(CV 荻野可鈴)/田中心春(CV 大橋彩香)
Romanised Artist : Suzuki Yua(CV Nishi Asuka)/ Satou Hina(CV Akesaka Satomi)/ Takahashi Aoi(CV Ogino Karin)/ Tanaka Koharu(CV Ohashi Ayaka)

lol That was terribly long.


Hope this can be finalized soon?

I'm honestly wondering what went wrong here, as for some reason it is a big deal to have consistent and accurate metadata. When did it suddenly change to "must be 100% accurate to the original published source except for when I don't like it"?

Titles being pushed off of menus and panels has been a problem forever, so this isn't a recent thing. I don't see why there should be a contradictory rule added, as there's a rule that directly states do not alter the song's title as it stands. Is this going to become a thing where we will see in the RC:


I'd honestly rather it go the other way and have the vocalists names removed, and simply keep the name of the characters supposedly performing the song. That's the same way aliases work, no? Eagle is kors k, but you wouldn't scrap Eagle and write down kors k. Worse yet, you also wouldn't remove kors k and place Kosuke Saito in the artist field, would you?

Agreeing with Lach here. We've gone through many leaps in order to keep consistent and correct metadata these days, why go a complete 180 on this idealogy now? Keeping accurate to what the artist/publisher states is the best, and will always be because that is the legitimate info. No need for yet another contradictory rule that doesn't really serve much of a purpose other than to skew proper accredation to the artist/publisher.

If the issue is song artist/titles going off the screen, it'd be better to make a Feature Request to fix this without making silly exceptions in the ranking criteria.

Lach wrote:

do not alter the song's title

Who said anything about altering the title?
Where does the ranking criteria say anything about the artist?
I just want a clear rule that tells me how to format the artist field, because there is currently no rule governing this, which can still lead to disqualifications based on whatever the QAT thinks.

Lach wrote:

Eagle is kors k, but you wouldn't scrap Eagle and write down kors k. Worse yet, you also wouldn't remove kors k and place Kosuke Saito in the artist field, would you?

Of course you wouldn't, and this new rule is not suggesting that.

CloudSplash16 wrote:

Lach wrote:

do not alter the song's title

Who said anything about altering the title?
Where does the ranking criteria say anything about the artist?
I just want a clear rule that tells me how to format the artist field, because there is currently no rule governing this, which can still lead to disqualifications based on whatever the QAT thinks.

Lach wrote:

Eagle is kors k, but you wouldn't scrap Eagle and write down kors k. Worse yet, you also wouldn't remove kors k and place Kosuke Saito in the artist field, would you?

Of course you wouldn't, and this new rule is not suggesting that.

I interpret title as a string of words which tell you what the song is called, and who it is by. While that particular line of text does not explicitly specify the artist field, it almost certainly applies to artists. So there is a rule governing it. And this proposed rule should not pass as people have pressed how supposedly important being correct is, and now they want titles to be incorrect because it conveniences them?

Sometimes I wonder if people even read the first sentence in the post. Anyways...

CloudSplash16 wrote:

I just want a clear rule that tells me how to format the artist field, because there is currently no rule governing this, which can still lead to disqualifications based on whatever the QAT thinks.

^
pretty much this. I've been asked more than a few times now if it's OK to remove the fictional names, so it only makes sense to want to push something like this forward. We have way too many unwritten patterns we follow at this point and it's better to get these cleared up before a QAT takes a divebomb at this and causes DQ drama.

Fullerene- wrote:

If the issue is song artist/titles going off the screen, it'd be better to make a Feature Request to fix this without making silly exceptions in the ranking criteria.

It's not about it being an issue, it's about the benefits of having this RC approved. Anyways, something like scrolling text could easily fix this, and it's a pretty damn good idea for those songs that extend further than the screen. Go ask for this on feature requests

Would this make more sense as a recommended guideline? At least this way maps can't be DQd from shortening the field, which is currently being practiced by hundreds of maps today. It's basically the same thing as shortening the source. From stuff like Pokemon Red/Blue to just Pokemon. The important part is still there and is technically not incorrect.

Lanturn wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if people even read the first sentence in the post. Anyways...

I fully read and understood it, and I fully disagree that this should be a thing. While CV: looks fucking awful, it goes directly against everything people argue for when it comes to metadata- That it must be 100% official and correct.

I like your idea with the scrolling for what it's worth, but if you have a problem with the current way titles are displayed, perhaps you should be the one to make the feature request.

Fix the issue with the long titles in the client because it isn't exclusive to maps with (CV:name) instead of proposing rules for edge cases.

Agree it, nice rule.

But there is no rule that is called Metadata should be obtained only from the official site of the artist or publisher of the work and/or released CD cases and scans.

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/238998 hasn't been approved yet, why should we follow it? At least at this case we can try to avoid it.

Artist is used to show the singer/composer/circle's name and etc, fictional names are really not needed and may cause a misunderstanding...

We try to look for official metadata nowadays, but don't forget it's just to respect the original, the official. It doesn't mean we should follow anything official, like this kind of CD scans. That makes no sense.

Oh, I didn't know there was a thread like this. Anyway, I would like to revive this for few reasons. Firstly, if it happens that whole title is impossible to read because of adding all the names of characters is quite insensible.
Second thing, it looks aesthetically bad, putting brackets everywhere adding Character Voice marks like C.V., CV or starring is not really cool. - Also, if you mix up names of characters, people might check for other maps under the character's name, while they are looking for the voice, not the exact character.

Third thing, they call it 'performers' - These are not always real artists. I think artist deserves to be either real person or if it doesn't sing the real person, then use name provided by artist. Actually, the problem is for example some circles, I already saw cases, when a circle had an album and there were songs of it. Those were some Touhou remakes and they also stated performers as Name of artist as Kirisame Marisa, Name of artist as Hakurei Reimu, Name of artist as Another thouhou character, I guess they were like four or something and they were exactly called 'performers', while we would use the Circle's name. The point is stuff after 歌 doesn't always mean those people are artists, if it is a fictional character, how could it make the 'art'? It just performed it in anime, but didn't 'art' with their voice, because they have none, the voice actors do.

Fourth and last thing, when you get a CD with soundtrack and with full version of some anime song, which actually shows also the characters as the performers, but then you look at official website of artist and they for example use their name as artist and put the names somewhere else and that way it is shown on the full version of song's CD. What I mean is that many sites which sell the CD represent the form different way, some are using (C.V., (CV:), (C.V.), starring, as, and so and so on and they sometimes differ from other sites or they don't even use it while other site does and so on.. it's really variable thing, thus it shouldn't be (in my opinion) included in artist, moreover, we should appreciate the singers, not fictional characters who didn't produce the sound at all.

Giving this a bump. Will give this discussion a week before I either bubble/flame this depending on the outcome.

Try to bring a close to these discussions/come to a consensus.

Seems like the discussion has been left up in the air during the given period to discuss. Will proceed to flame. Give me a poke if you wish to revive this discussion.