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osu! World Cup 2014 - Mappool Discussion

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cptnXn

GladiOol wrote:

It seems like a lot of you are not understanding the thought process behind this years map list, so allow me to elaborate.

The maps this year will indeed start of easier. I know all of you are now cookiezi level like cptnxn who is not afraid to show us his constructive criticism on this part, but that is beside the point. There's a banning phase this year. Both teams are allowed to ban two maps before the actual match commences. This is to highly increase tactical asset of this tournament. That is also why the current map list is easier compared to last years group stage. Analyze your opponents. Know their weaknesses and exploit them. Win through tactical insight instead of pure raw skill. Upsets are what make the tournament fun. Seeing the underdog beating the 'big boss' because of making the right picks is what makes the tournament fun and exciting. That is why it starts of easier. But let me reassure you, it will also end harder than it did last year.
how am i supposed to exploit their weakness if the DT maps are so easy, that it doesn't even count as a real DT map
DeletedUser_613592

cptnXn wrote:

overall level has risen so much

mappool level has crashed into nothingness

i dont even wanna look at the DT maps

is this some kind of joke?
i can be a DT player with those maps, shhhh
-Ephemeral-

GladiOol wrote:

Upsets are what make the tournament fun. Seeing the underdog beating the 'big boss' because of making the right picks is what makes the tournament fun and exciting. That is why it starts of easier. But let me reassure you, it will also end harder than it did last year.
Cut him some slack, caramel heaven was in finals last year :P

Plus what fun is it to watch one team get 4 FCs whilst the other team barely scrapes by?
Ace3DF

darkmiz wrote:

and I would like to see some AR9 DT maps.
not everyone grinds ar9dt for pp m8
cptnXn
dont understand me wrong, i dont think the nomod maps are that bad

but the DT maps are just simply a joke lol

DT is supposed to be fast
the bpm of the DT maps is not even higher than anything else
jesse1412

Ace3DF wrote:

darkmiz wrote:

and I would like to see some AR9 DT maps.
not everyone grinds ar9dt for pp m8
I disagree with ar9 dt for the group stages but this IS the new high level meta, this IS the highest level tournament. The contents of the pool should reflect to high level meta and you'll be very stretched to find someone in the top 300 who has no ar9+dt scores.
GladiOol

cptnXn wrote:

dont understand me wrong, i dont think the nomod maps are that bad

but the DT maps are just simply a joke lol

DT is supposed to be fast
the bpm of the DT maps is not even higher than anything else
Good point, noted it. Next to the fact that it would already become harder of course, I'll make sure not have 190~200 bpm (including DT) maps. Thanks~
Topic Starter
Loctav
@everyone Please consider, that all contestants are above a PP-ranking of #5000 (if not higher). Please judge the mappool while considering this
buny

jesus1412 wrote:

I disagree with ar9 dt for the group stages but this IS the new high level meta, this IS the highest level tournament. The contents of the pool should reflect to high level meta and you'll be very stretched to find someone in the top 300 who has no ar9+dt scores.
the thing is, is that osu lacks pro players in each country, and in most countries won't even have 2+ star players
Aka
expected more than a half of those be in a mappool, pretty good one for group stage though the tiebreaker map is something.. not challenging but random-miss-map IMO, reminded me of Denied map and Last vision for last one
jesse1412

buny wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

I disagree with ar9 dt for the group stages but this IS the new high level meta, this IS the highest level tournament. The contents of the pool should reflect to high level meta and you'll be very stretched to find someone in the top 300 who has no ar9+dt scores.
the thing is, is that osu lacks pro players in each country, and in most countries won't even have 2+ star players
The competition shouldn't be held back because of this, after the group stages all of those teams will be gone anyway.
AmaiHachimitsu
Gladi I appreciate your concern with how the maps should be getting harder each stage, but I think the starting level is still a bit too low.

It's so low that the skill actually might not matter AT ALL. I can assure you that each and every OWC player can FC those songs 9 out of 10 tries, so your aim for them not to be consistency-oriented will be missed. I can only imagine it getting better later, but I already can predict some possible surprises when an underdog wins against a top team.


As to repicks, I am totally for repicks but only if they haven't been picked many times in previous OWCs, especially those from Semis/finals like Calamity Fortune or O.T.N or whatever.
Shiro

jesus1412 wrote:

I disagree with ar9 dt for the group stages but this IS the new high level meta, this IS the highest level tournament. The contents of the pool should reflect to high level meta and you'll be very stretched to find someone in the top 300 who has no ar9+dt scores.
this makes me feel special
Mismagius
May be just me, but I just EXTREMELY disliked the Yoiduki Maiuta HD map. That's the only complaint I have, rest of the mappool is really nice.
Cherry Blossom

Blue Dragon wrote:

May be just me, but I just EXTREMELY disliked the Yoiduki Maiuta HD map.
This map is cool ;w;
Not easy to play this one with HD, you need to play this map a few times to memorize hidden notes, and jumps between streams.
Skystar
before I opened the thread I was like, "bd must be talking about my map"
am I a wizard?
nya10

Amamiya Yuko wrote:

before I opened the thread I was like, "bd must be talking about my map"
am I a wizard?
Skystar HD hype lol
Anyway imo there's should be more variety of AR, like lower AR pick or something, it could be use as a strategy too `-`
cptnXn
about what i said and strategy

The strategic point of DT is that the enemy team may have too less people which can handle faster bpm
Because the DT maps are all same bpm/lower bpm than the nomod maps and are shorter i can essentially just pick nomod and the DT picks are completly useless from a tactical view
Cherry Blossom

Amamiya Yuko wrote:

am I a wizard?
You're a hentai wizard
/me runs
KRZY
cptnXn I think you've played too much DoubleTime to not have understood that fast BPM is only a part of what playing DoubleTime is. Surely you know this?

Independent of that, I find the DoubleTime maps fitting for group stages. It always has been around this difficulty, and it seems consistent to me.
I also like Gladi's philosophy (and the resultant maps) on map-picking, shows you he's the right man for the job. Pretty satisfied with what we got.
Ziggo
Good mappool overall, but I still have some concerns:

DT: Maps seem a bit easy and don't really feel fast (which is kinda the point of DT)
HD: capitaro - Yoiduki Maiuta (Amamiya Yuko) [Insane] seems way harder than any of the other maps (or is that just me?)
Tiebreaker: It's a good map but it seems a bit too easy. I feel like it has about the same difficulty as the NoMod maps and a tiebreaker map should be a bit harder than the other maps of the stage.
NoMod, FreeMod and HR pools are good.

The only other thing that bothers me is how similar some of the maps are. AR's are all the same and even bpm has little variety.

Still a really good mappool, good job Gladi and ToGlette.
Tidek
Like cptnXn said, the only problem here is DT bracket, Im not saying that it should be AR9 + DT from beginning, but they should... nah they MUST be faster than maps in other brackets. (with 140+ base bpm), otherwise DT makes no difference compared to nomod maps except 0,3 higher AR.
Mismagius

Amamiya Yuko wrote:

before I opened the thread I was like, "bd must be talking about my map"
am I a wizard?
I actually like most of your maps, and I liked that map, just not with HD :<
Azer
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.

Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"

I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
Tidek

Azer wrote:

I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.

Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"

I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
You believe that low seeded teams will make less random misses and better acc through WHOLE match than top seeded teams?
jesse1412

Tidek wrote:

Azer wrote:

I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.

Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"

I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
You believe that low seeded teams will make less random misses and better acc through WHOLE match than top seeded teams?
It's happened many times before.
KRZY

Azer wrote:

I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.

Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"

I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
If you miss on easy maps then you don't deserve to be good. You heard me right. It is also why so many high-ranked players just disappear in OWCs while some of the not-so-high ranked players consistently turn up.
Lance
I think this is a very good move for the spectator's point of view. Will keep things interesting.

As for the competitors side... I guess that's up to opinion.
B1rd

KRZY wrote:

Azer wrote:

I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.

Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"

I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
If you miss on easy maps then you don't deserve to be good. You heard me right. It is also why so many high-ranked players just disappear in OWCs while some of the not-so-high ranked players consistently turn up.
yeah I agree honestly, consistency is a skill. even if you're super fast and high ranked, it's completely fair that you get knocked out of the tournament because of worse consistency than a lower ranked player.

although I also agree that maps shouldn't be so easy that most players can easily FC them without too much pressure, then a random miss by a player on one side decides the outcome.
Eraqus
Consistency is underrated and must be the main skill in a tournament. If the maps are easy, high ranked players won't have any problems, otherwise they don't deserve to be where they are.
JappyBabes

KRZY wrote:

If you miss on easy maps then you don't deserve to be good. You heard me right. It is also why so many high-ranked players just disappear in OWCs while some of the not-so-high ranked players consistently turn up.
Worse teams better start praying to RNGod.
fartownik
The mappool is too easy, especially compared to last year. People have progressed A LOT since last year and this shouldn't happen, it should be the opposite. Not to mention that the tiebreaker is too damn easy compared to the rest of the maps... YOU CAN'T MISS ON THOSE MAPS, unless it's a totally random miss ANYONE can do during the match. Those maps won't judge your playing skill but your accuracy only, since everyone's gonna FC them (unless someone misses, but that'd be due to some completely random factors as lags or sth, the best players equal the the lower players all the same here). In our group we have Netherlands, Canada and Poland. How are those maps gonna distinguish 2 better teams out of those 3? It's just impossible, everyone's gonna FC them unless some spike happens or a random factor is involved (not to mention you gave HK a chance to actually fight with us with those picks). It shouldn't be like that. Also why are the same maps as last year already being picked? Caramel Heaven, Nevereverland, Yoiduki Maiuta, shinkaron. Didn't we have plenty of maps ranked this year that you could pick? Btw, Hidden picks are somehow the hardest maps out of all from the pool, no clue why. I strongly advise to revise these maps before the actual tournament and make them harder.
GladiOol

fartownik wrote:

The mappool is too easy, especially compared to last year. People have progressed A LOT since last year and this shouldn't happen, it should be the opposite. Not to mention that the tiebreaker is too damn easy compared to the rest of the maps... YOU CAN'T MISS ON THOSE MAPS, unless it's a totally random miss ANYONE can do during the match. Those maps won't judge your playing skill but your accuracy only, since everyone's gonna FC them (unless someone misses, but that'd be due to some completely random factors as lags or sth, the best players equal the the lower players all the same here). In our group we have Netherlands, Canada and Poland. How are those maps gonna distinguish 2 better teams out of those 3? It's just impossible, everyone's gonna FC them unless some spike happens or a random factor is involved (not to mention you gave HK a chance to actually fight with us with those picks). It shouldn't be like that. Also why are the same maps as last year already being picked? Caramel Heaven, Nevereverland, Yoiduki Maiuta, shinkaron. Didn't we have plenty of maps ranked this year that you could pick? Btw, Hidden picks are somehow the hardest maps out of all from the pool, no clue why. I strongly advise to revise these maps before the actual tournament and make them harder.
I don't know how many more times I have to emphasize the fact that a different philosophy has been used. It will start of easier and up harder. It won't be a barely existent curve anymore like the previous years. There's going to be a build up. A build up to live up with the hype of this tournament. It will become progressingly harder. The further you go in the tournament, the harder it will become. You worry about missing. Missing will always be a factor. It has litteraly nothing to do with the maps represented. It's either you lack the skill, you can't control your nerves or something outside your own has influence on your result (such as lag). Theses three factors have zero correlation with the difficulty of a beatmap. If a miss has high influence in the early stages, well, I have a pro tip for you. Don't miss. Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.

Caramel Heaven was used last year in the finals as a free mod. A map you claim to be ''so easy'' and yet it got all the way to the finals. That will not happen this year. When it comes to the other maps, every single one was used for a different mod bracket. And besides, if the map is good the map is good. Why favor something new over something old yet good? I think we've created a fine balance between newer and older maps. And I've already said before. I've litteraly played every single map in 2014 that I, according to the philosophy used this year, find acceptable in terms of difficulty. I don't think hidden is the hardest bracket at all. It simply shows that rarely anybody uses hidden only for mod usages. Everybody plays HR or DT (with perhaps HD as a secondary mod). Nobody plays HD only on a map that has patterns that could be deemed more difficult.

And dear god, ''strongly advising'' to revise an entire map list? I'm fine with you not agreeing with a certain path that has been set up this year, but completely revising the idea that has been set in motion to create a 'complete experience tournament' is ludacris.
Natsu

Ace3DF wrote:

Maps look a lot easier to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if 99% of the players SS'd (or 1 100x off)
lol totally agree, this mappool looks so easy D:
fartownik
You say that the maps will go harder and harder, yes that's the point of you doing this. But you start off from a too easy "foot" already. The maps should've been harder to begin with, then you could start making them gradually harder, just like it was a year ago. Someone said that "consistency is a skill", of course it is but it shouldn't be forced as the main decider of who gets out of group and who doesn't, not "THIS" consistency. Btw, missing has nothing to do with the maps represented? Of course it has. You let the possibility of a tight match between a top tier country and a lower tier country to occur by doing such picks.

Also you talk about Caramel Heaven from last year when the FreeMod bracket was broken and the map selectors didn't exactly know what they should pick for those stages, thus ending up with random maps there at times.
byfar
this mappool's garbage
Azer

GladiOol wrote:

Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.
The mappool promotes consistency over overall skill? Top seeded teams are at risk of being eliminated by low seeded teams, should it really be that way? Should a team considered to be the strongest really have a chance to lose in group stages because one of their members had an unlucky miss while the 7 other players went on to FC the map?

Just throwing thoughts to make sure you thought this through properly and not going with a "yolo lets do things different because i can" mentality. This just feels.. wrong.
GladiOol

fartownik wrote:

You say that the maps will go harder and harder, yes that's the point of you doing this. But you start off from a too easy "foot" already. The maps should've been harder to begin with, then you could start making them gradually harder, just like it was a year ago. Someone said that "consistency is a skill", of course it is but it shouldn't be forced as the main decider of who gets out of group and who doesn't, not "THIS" consistency. Btw, missing has nothing to do with the maps represented? Of course it has. You let the possibility of a tight match between a top tier country and a lower tier country to occur by doing such picks.

Also you talk about Caramel Heaven from last year when the FreeMod bracket was broken and the map selectors didn't exactly know what they should pick for those stages, thus ending up with random maps there at times.
I've play tested this already. I did not start off at the wrong foot. In the bigger lines, the map list is already complete. I know what difficulty will come next and I know what will come after. The banning phase and loser bracket were both suggested by me for this reason. They fit the philsophy. If they were not implemented I would not have done it this way.

I agree that more ''tight'' matches might occur. But if you lose 3 times against a lower tier team, you lose because you are worse. I don't think this needs discussion. I've played the owc 3 times and every single map my team lost were because we simply played worse. The maps do not have a factor in this.

And why would the map selectors not know what to pick? It's a bracket where HD and HR are allowed, thus they pick maps that give the same experience and difficulty when played with HR and HD individualy.
JappyBabes
win condition acc let's go
GladiOol

Azer wrote:

GladiOol wrote:

Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.
The mappool promotes consistency over overall skill? Top seeded teams are at risk of being eliminated by low seeded teams, should it really be that way? Should a team considered to be the strongest really have a chance to lose in group stages because one of their members had an unlucky miss while the 7 other players went on to FC the map?
''Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.''

- ''Oh that means he's saying that overall skill is of less importance!''

????

Azer wrote:

Just throwing thoughts to make sure you thought this through properly and not going with a "yolo lets do things different because i can" mentality. This just feels.. wrong.
If you would have taken the slightest amount of time to even read what I have posted so far in this thread or even simply PM'd me through forums or in-game, you'd know by now this is not the case. You're reading my posts out of context and you're questioning that which I have already answered.
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