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[Rule Clarification] Finish notes (Taiko)

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18
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Deadline: 19.09.2014

Taiko Ranking Criteria wrote:

  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it. Finisher notes at the end of a stream must have the opposite color of the previous note.
change to
  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it. Finisher notes at the end of a stream must have the opposite color of the four previous notes.
This prevents,
  1. ooX
  2. ...oxxxO
in an excessive way. Is it a single pattern or stream.

It is said 1/4 or above stream. But 1/3 are dangerous as well in some cases.
It is said if there is a reasonable sound for it. But it should play & look well, too.
It is said a stream must have the opposite color of the four previous notes. But no excerssive / bad use on 5plets is appropriated.

Modding should prevent that. In this way the rule doesn't become to complicated when leaving this out.

Note: This is a rewording to clarify it. Nothing else. The rule remains the same like before. Personally I see ooooX as problematic. But since people don't use it and modding can prevent excessive use, it should be fine.


[Rule Clarification] Slider Velocity (Taiko)
Nwolf
2,607 posts
Joined September 2012
Nwolf
Yep since I also kinda brought it into discussion with Ono I agree that a clarification should happen because as it stands right now, it gives people way too much possibilities to read the rule the way they want.
Asagi Mutsuki
osu!trivium Champion
1,476 posts
Joined February 2013
Asagi Mutsuki
wait in this case stuff like dkddddKkd can be allowed ? ._.?
Dainesl
898 posts
Joined May 2012
Dainesl
I'm assuming IF it plays, sounds, and looks really nice (which is often not the case so...)

but Ono only mentions big notes at the ends of streams as examples, so I'm not sure myself entirely
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

OnosakiHito wrote:

It is said 1/4 or above stream. But 1/3 are dangerous as well in some cases.
I think this should work the same like 1/4 - if it plays well and sounds reasonable then there is no problem.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@cdhsausageboy: Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. - So, no.
@Dainesl: ^

@Stefan: Wouldn't work like 1/4. In 1/4, middle / beginning is permited. On special cases middle finisher in 1/3 is fine. Modding will solve that as it did before.


If anything is unclear, please ask. The rule must be clear to everyone.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Oh eh, my wording was bad and unclear but yes, that what you said. Gonna tell you per pm what I actually meant. orz
Asagi Mutsuki
osu!trivium Champion
1,476 posts
Joined February 2013
Asagi Mutsuki
Why should finishers in a 1/3 stream or a 1/4 stream be treated differently? They look and play in the same way imo orz
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
They do not look the same. 1/4 overlap eachother heavily. 1/3 doesn't in some or most cases. Which is why modding should handle this.
Beside that, it doesn't play the same either. Due to different amount of notes, you play it differently(well, I guess ooxx players doesn't bother it).
Asagi Mutsuki
osu!trivium Champion
1,476 posts
Joined February 2013
Asagi Mutsuki
If you're considering the readability of the big notes then SV should be considered as well =w=
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
It is already considered. There won't be any changes in terms of finishers beeing in the middle or beginning of a 1/4 stream.
And since 1/3 is a really tricky topic which is sometimes on a case-by-case basis, modding can handle this. In general, it worked so far well.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Midstream or earlystream they disrupt the plays as not all keyboards do have perfect feedback on these. Endstream finisher do not give any problem.
however, things to denote:
1. Readability issues should be handled by modding as you said; don't forget that a 1/4 stream looks like a 1/2 sequence at 0.5x speed. At 1.4 SV there's no big problem about reading these if BPM is low enough (but either way, if it gets too stupid you know what happens)
2. Playability - 1/3, 1/4, 1/273.15; they all play the same way. You're hitting both keys assigned to a color after all.
2.1 - Maybe use BPM correspondence to see whether it works or not ? For instance, 270 BPM 1/3 streams with big notes in them = 180 1/4; which is a problem.
3. Stream sequences - You're talking about 4 previous notes; I'd rather see "a fair amount of notes"; so it doesn't stick to the 16th notes.
4. Speed limits - After a certain speed or timeline spacing they should totally be banned, due to some keyboard limitations. For instance, having kkddkkD kkd kkd at 270+ BPM or at 114 BPM play really differently. On the other side, at lower BPMs, it should be lenient provided there are enough reasons for them to be. (High SV for instance)

1, 2.1, 4 are certainly going to be handled by modding but the second point of 4 is less clear.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
As you said, most of your points apply to modding already.

_Gezo_ wrote:

3. Stream sequences - You're talking about 4 previous notes; I'd rather see "a fair amount of notes"; so it doesn't stick to the 16th notes.
Nevermind how long the stream is - as long as there are 4 notes of the same colour behind the finisher it is fine. Else odd finisher+1/4 constellations are possible which shold be prevented. I explained everything in the OP.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Tomorrow the change will be approved. If you have something to add, please do so.
Nwolf
2,607 posts
Joined September 2012
Nwolf
hm

maybe change it to three previous notes, there are some cases where a stream fits better with a xoooX end instead of ooooX and it doesn't play too different. Also gives more possibility for usage at the end of faster 1/3 because there you will see xxxoooX more often and not allowing that would be kinda unfair imo. But the limit should be kept at 5-plets for 1/4.

EDIT: And should said xoooX not work out it will be mentioned in good mods anyway
LZD
359 posts
Joined December 2009
LZD
I'm late as always. Well, i still can't understand why this rule. Apart from the bpm of the map, i dont get why this rule, ddK could seems ankward sometimes, but on longer streams i think we dont need 4 notes before a big note. Nowadays big notes at the end of a stream is easy for ddkk and kddk players imo.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Because finisher must not be overused. Playwise there are many things which are possible. But if ...oX patterns are allowed, that would mean that continuous finisher use on 1/4 is allowed as well. Which obviously is not a good move. It becomes too loud. It doesn't look good. And even playwise it becomes questionable.

Nwolf's concerns has been discussed in #taiko (do I need to recall it here...?)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Gave it some more time until approval. Anyway, rule has been clarified now.
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