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[Rule] Do not use pure white or black combo colors.

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Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Topic Starter
Zare
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule, as I stated in the OP.

However, apparently some staffs think that this thread can be used in order to discuss whether or not the currently-in-place-but-not-written-down rule makes sense or not, so discussion can still go on.
All I know about the technical stuff is that white colors >apparently< cause bad kiai strobing on >some< skins. I've never experienced this so I dont know about it, but it seems like an issue in the skin rather than the combo colors.

Alltogether I'd just suggest to get rid of this unwritten rule and have it forgotten, but if the devs, who confirmed them being an issues, stick to their opinion, just add the rule to the RC for god's sake
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu
If I may state my opinion:



Pure black or white colours CAN be an issue, and as such changing these should be a "quality standard" as stated in the image above.

This is not added in the Ranking Criteria, but it's a bubble factor which in turn leads to ranking (and unranking)

If anything, colours go into quality standards.
Last edited by Maruyu , edited 2 times in total.
tiper
tiper
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule

I'm done here. Talking with staff of their mistakes gets you nowhere. Let's just make this rule well-looking.
1) White combo colours, as Zare said, cause bad kiai strobing on some skins. I'd not use "pure white" as definition, because #FFFFFE colour is, nominally, not "pure", but still does the same thing.
2) Pure black combo colours make hitobjects invisible with 100% dim (and default skin).
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

tiper wrote:

the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule

I'm done here. Talking with staff of their mistakes gets you nowhere. Let's just make this rule well-looking.
1) White combo colours, as Zare said, cause bad kiai strobing on some skins. I'd not use "pure white" as definition, because #FFFFFE colour is, nominally, not "pure", but still does the same thing.
2) Pure black combo colour makes hitobjects invisible with 100% dim (and default skin).
If you're going to make a rule about this then you should realize that the whole quality criteria (which is imo where colours would fit) needs strict guidelines. It would make mappers' lives a hell of a lot easier.
tiper
tiper

Yuzu- wrote:

the whole quality criteria (which is imo where colours would fit) needs strict guidelines.
Let's make it the main point of the thread.
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

tiper wrote:

Yuzu- wrote:

the whole quality criteria (which is imo where colours would fit) needs strict guidelines.
Let's make it the main point of the thread.
Agreed. So many more maps have been targeted due to quality issues that are NOT colours, be it sliders or whatever.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I will argue that playing with 100% dim is not the way the game was intended to be played by peppy. We don't conform mapping standards to whether or not people will be playing with the background visible. It is fully intended to be played with the background. If you choose to dim it, then you will need to solve the issue of blending yourself.
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

TheVileOne wrote:

I will argue that playing with 100% dim is not the way the game was intended to be played by peppy. We don't conform mapping standards to whether or not people will be playing with the background visible. It is fully intended to be played with the background. If you choose to dim it, then you will need to solve the issue of blending yourself.
if the map is intended to play with background then why add a dim option?

The option is there, when it was added situations like 100% dim should and probably were considered.
tiper
tiper

TheVileOne wrote:

I will argue that playing with 100% dim is not the way the game was intended to be played by peppy.
It wasn't the way the game was intended to be played in 2010. Now we have that "visual setting" thing.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Dim was added to stop people from deleting backgrounds. peppy doesn't want you to use it.
tiper
tiper

TheVileOne wrote:

Dim was added to stop people from deleting backgrounds. peppy doesn't want you to use it.
True. But the reality is that peppy had to do that. As a game developer, he couldn't disrespect the countless amount of players who wanted to play without backrounds. Why would you disrespect them now?
Last edited by tiper , edited 1 time in total.
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

TheVileOne wrote:

Dim was added to stop people from deleting backgrounds. peppy doesn't want you to use it.
people deleted backgrounds to have a pitch black background. Adding dim merely stopped them from doing so, while still providing them with a way to do so.

Yuzu- wrote:

while still providing them with a way to do so
Providing it with a way doesn't sound help.

Anyway, this isn't the topic. Maps are made for the players, and if a large portion of players play 100% dim and we KNOW it, wouldn't hurt to have quality standards thinking about these players.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
This should not become an official rule until the team comes up with a consensus on whether it should be allowed or disallowed. In my long career of being a modder, which probably predates Alexs BTW I have not heard of this rule. I have not seen any other BATs or modders mention it and it should have been a written rule years ago if it was an actual rule.

I disagree that any condition that changes the original appearance of the beatmap should be considered as part of any mapping rule.
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

TheVileOne wrote:

This should not become an official rule until the team comes up with a consensus on whether it should be allowed or disallowed. In my long career of being a modder, which probably predates Alexs BTW I have not heard of this rule. I have not seen any other BATs or modders mention it and it should have been a written rule years ago if it was an actual rule.

I disagree that any condition that changes the original appearance of the beatmap should be considered as part of any mapping rule.
We're past the combo colors from my point of view. We're not just talking about those, the thing in discussion atm is that "Quality Standards" need to be set straight. It's not supposed to be a rule, it's a guideline because it's NOT in the ranking criteria. It's up to whoever's qualified to decide if the map meets or not the quality standards. The issue here is that you can't find them anywhere atm, and we need a list for this.
tiper
tiper

TheVileOne wrote:

I have not seen any other BATs or modders mention it and it should have been a written rule years ago if it was an actual rule.
I've heard once that pure black combo colour is not suggested to use. There was a NTR's (not sure about the mapper, though) beatmap and a shitload of whine about it being unplayable without background.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Even as a guideline, it needs to be supported with specific reasoning that makes sense.

Can we validate that white screws up kiai? I pointed out the slider tick issue that was a problem, but plenty of maps got away with using invisible slider ticks rankable or no. I don't see how this rule is being enforced while that was being allowed back in the day. It's still questionable that it violates the RC because there is an exception clause that requires that the change affect how the map is played and slider ticks do not make a large impact on playability.
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

TheVileOne wrote:

slider ticks do not make a large impact on playability.
This could be arguable, but in most cases yes, you're right about this.

I'm merely defending that if the kiai scenario turns out to be troublesome, that it's added as a guideline to a preferably-to-be-made Quality Standard list.

Regarding black colours, I am 100% against them due to dim.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
After reading the thread I just realized the only colour that causes problem is the white, I agree sometimes it may fit nicely, but we still should do something about how it strobes in kiai time, so I think this would fit better as a guideline.

Avoid using white as combo colour. This is to prevent strobing within kiai times as well as technical issues with some skins. In the case the circle numbers or slider ticks of the used skin blend with this colour, you should skin them to make them clearly visible.
tbh I don't see black causing many troubles with default settings as white (if it causes any), so I don't think we should take them into consideration.
tiper
tiper

DakeDekaane wrote:

tbh I don't see black causing many troubles with default settings as white (if it causes any), so I don't think we should take them into consideration.
That's what pure black combo colour looks like when playing with default skin and 100% dimmed background
Approach circles are almost invisible.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Topic Starter
Zare
100% is not a default option. If you dim, you do it at your own risk and if needed, should also disable beatmap skin and thus the combo colors.
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu

Zare wrote:

100% is not a default option. If you dim, you do it at your own risk and if needed, should also disable beatmap skin and thus the combo colors.
Why can't the Ranking Criteria benefit the large portion of players who play 100% dim? I personally feel like black doesn't fit in most cases anyway so yeah
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Topic Starter
Zare
"large portion"
you mean the 5k players that do it as opposed to the 100k~ casuals that dont? ever heard of the term "vocal minority"?

anyway, this isn't the point, people who dim dont have an issue with disabling map skin (or shouldnt at least, since it wouldnt make any sense to complain, the combo colours are chosen to fit the BG anyway), thus black colors do not affect anyone badly. disallowing them just for that doesnt make sense whatsoever.
[Dellirium]
1,551 posts
Joined October 2010
[Dellirium]
What's the problem of using user's skin or default skin colours with dimmed background?
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Remember, if we're trying to set up ranking criteria, we need to be basing things off the default settings - so no dim and all the bells and whistles on.

I find Dake's proposition good for a guideline, as nothing presented in the thread so far really warrants this to be an iron-clad rule with regards to the black color.

Avoid using white as combo colour. This is to prevent strobing within kiai times as well as technical issues with some skins. In the case the circle numbers or slider ticks of the used skin blend with this colour, you should skin them to make them clearly visible.

This will close after a week if no new compelling points are brought up and be applied to the ranking criteria.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
I just noticed I'm bad redacting.

"...you should skin them to make them clearly visible." -> "...you should skin said/such elements to make them clearly visible."
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
File me scenarios, where it is valid to put white and black combo colors. Then it works as guideline. Guidelines only exist, because there are some exceptions, where it can be broken. I can not think of any scenario, where you have a good technical reason to break this guideline.

If you can not name me valid scenarios, this gets a rule. Pure white and pure black is really iffy and blends the shit out of you with shader effects and kiai time, or even with the occasional pulses you get there. Slider ticks on peppysliders are hard to read, white conflicts a lot also with many skins, with the combo counter and with the repeat arrow of several skins.

I can not see any situation where it hurts you (apart of some unreasoned stubborn mapper pride) to change the combo color to something else but pure white.

Setting this as guideline makes zero sense to me.
tiper
tiper
^Agreed
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
On the contrary, making this a rule would allow #FFFFFE or #100000 as a valid combo colour. It should be most effective if the rule included terms "sufficiently non-white and non-black", instead of setting numerical values or using vague colouring.
Crayonsnacha
7 posts
Joined May 2013
Crayonsnacha

Zare wrote:

"large portion"
you mean the 5k players that do it as opposed to the 100k~ casuals that dont? ever heard of the term "vocal minority"?

anyway, this isn't the point, people who dim dont have an issue with disabling map skin (or shouldnt at least, since it wouldnt make any sense to complain, the combo colours are chosen to fit the BG anyway), thus black colors do not affect anyone badly. disallowing them just for that doesnt make sense whatsoever.
Competitive>casual, regardless of majority/minority. Where do you think money/donations comes from?
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

those wrote:

On the contrary, making this a rule would allow #FFFFFE or #100000 as a valid combo colour. It should be most effective if the rule included terms "sufficiently non-white and non-black", instead of setting numerical values or using vague colouring.
I agree on this. Should need rewrite of Zare's rule.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Loctav, white during non kiai fountain sections. The guideline would only exist for kiai related things.
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
I dont see any issues with white... my skin makes all combos white if i disable the beatmap skin and i never ran into any issues related to stobing. Black combo colors on the other hand...
tiper
tiper

Granger wrote:

I dont see any issues with white... my skin makes all combos white if i disable the beatmap skin and i never ran into any issues related to stobing. Black combo colors on the other hand...
It doesn't mean other skins do not cause stobing-related issues during kiai sections.
Sure
4,220 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure

TheVileOne wrote:

Loctav, white during non kiai fountain sections. The guideline would only exist for kiai related things.
This. If the mapper doesn't use kiai at all, this rule will be invalidity nevertheless the mapper can't use white.
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger

tiper wrote:

Granger wrote:

I dont see any issues with white... my skin makes all combos white if i disable the beatmap skin and i never ran into any issues related to stobing. Black combo colors on the other hand...
It doesn't mean other skins do not cause stobing-related issues during kiai sections.
Can you give me an example skin?
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Granger wrote:

Can you give me an example skin?
Default
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Topic Starter
Zare
So is this through now? and if it is, is TVO's point about making it for kiai times exclusively considered?
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Restricting specific singular RGB values for black and white would be pointless (as those as already touched on), so whatever amendment goes in needs to be inclusive of the fact that lighter and darker colours on the extreme end of intensity need to be considered for visibility under the default skin kiai times by themselves.

I would rather rephrase this entire thing into a rule that is centered around designing combo colours to keep basic visibility compared to both 100% dim and the standard beatmap background. It seems silly to make niche rules like this when we can encompass the entire issue.
Last edited by Loctav , edited 1 time in total.
XinCrin
2,846 posts
Joined January 2012
XinCrin

Zare wrote:

Do not use pure white (RGB code 255,255,255) or black (RGB code 0,0,0) combo colors. This is to prevent technical issues with some skins as well as strobing within kiai times, and can also help to prevent the hitobjects blending with the (dimmed) background.
Then I can use 254,254,254 or 1,1,1 right (?).
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
p/3384324 your point has been made
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
All we need for this is a guideline that says "Try to avoid using white and black combo colors, as white colors are hard to see on some skins and black colors are hard to see on a dimmed background."

There's no need for this to be a rule.
Kodora
Kodora
Agreed with Charles. Can this be finalized already?
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
This rule is stupid. You can't force mappers/skinners to avoid specific colors. Every color can be countered easily with images. For example pink on pinky background or blue on a skyish background. Its obvious that colors should fit to the actual background but not blend in. This can be easily checked and corrected through the modding process, we don't need to set a rule. Just check the colors as well while you mod a map.
Arcubin
689 posts
Joined September 2013
Arcubin
No... this rule is true... just imagine it when kiai... the strobing is hard to catch
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Then just point that out during modding process. Case closed.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust

Kurokami wrote:

This rule is stupid. You can't force mappers/skinners to avoid specific colors. Every color can be countered easily with images. For example pink on pinky background or blue on a skyish background. Its obvious that colors should fit to the actual background but not blend in. This can be easily checked and corrected through the modding process, we don't need to set a rule. Just check the colors as well while you mod a map.
Hopefully with some rewording (I'll try and come up with one later), we aren't going to be avoiding specific colors, just ones that will most likely cause issues. It would seem obvious that people would point out colors that could cause problems during the modding process, but this is not always the case. The reason why this was brought up in the first place is because disqualifications were happening and mappers were upset because it was not directly stated in the ranking criteria. With something like this firmly in place, there can be no confusion when disqualifications occur.

My opinion stands the same as before: instead of a rule that states do not use x because of y, I'd rather a guideline that recommends combo colors that are based on the image while also stating that black and white combo colors should be avoided (sort of a all-in-one guideline for all things combo color).
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The thing is that pure white is blinding with kiai strobing on hitcircles. This has happened for years and has been deemed unrankable since i was MAT, dunno why it's not yet in the RC.
Dunno why pure black is an issue tho.

This only happens with pure white, never seen it happen with grayish white or other light colors, but normally background blending gets modded away.
LexiaLovesU
822 posts
Joined June 2012
LexiaLovesU

Sakura wrote:

The thing is that pure white is blinding with kiai strobing on hitcircles. This has happened for years and has been deemed unrankable since i was MAT, dunno why it's not yet in the RC.
Dunno why pure black is an issue tho.

This only happens with pure white, never seen it happen with grayish white or other light colors, but normally background blending gets modded away.
Black is an issue cause if people want to dim the background during gameplay you cant see it
Arcubin
689 posts
Joined September 2013
Arcubin

LexiaLovesU wrote:

Black is an issue cause if people want to dim the background during gameplay you cant see it
It's also occur for blacken sb :3
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
If they are going as far as dimming the background, then they shouldn't have an issue ignoring skin to ignore the colors as well.
To be honest, maps should be playable as intended, if a player wants to dim the background and the colors dont fit after that then they can ignore skin.

azintairin710 wrote:

LexiaLovesU wrote:

Black is an issue cause if people want to dim the background during gameplay you cant see it
It's also occur for blacken sb :3
Use colorhax in those situations (Same with video that has light colors on certain parts that are lighter)
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust

Ephemeral wrote:

Restricting specific singular RGB values for black and white would be pointless (as those as already touched on), so whatever amendment goes in needs to be inclusive of the fact that lighter and darker colours on the extreme end of intensity need to be considered for visibility under the default skin kiai times by themselves.

I would rather rephrase this entire thing into a rule that is centered around designing combo colours to keep basic visibility compared to both 100% dim and the standard beatmap background. It seems silly to make niche rules like this when we can encompass the entire issue.
Flaming this for now. If anyone wishes to revive this, please supply an adequate wording and I'll proceed to move this back.
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