I just discovered that ignore beatmap skin also forces your own combo colors, so I suppose the issue I raised earlier about dark combo colors can be remedied this way.
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[Rule] Do not use pure white or black combo colors.
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That's exactly what I was saying. Re-read my post.Ayu wrote:
That's almost the same as saying that really hard maps would be unrankable since there's only a vocal minority that can play it and actually enjoy it.Shiro wrote:
Yes, there are ways to circumvent this, but only a select portion of the playerbase uses the visual settings, and we should not accept to impair the experience of those who wish to enjoy the game without that panel based on the argument that a vocal minority uses it. That would be the same as disallowing backgrounds, storyboards or hitsounds based on the fact that a certain number of people choose to always ignore them.
I'm just saying, this is a community so you should also think about that vocal minority. You should think about EVERYBODY. It's wrong to just keep their opinions out just because it's not ethical for you.
tiper
Topic Starter
exactly my pointtiper wrote:
Why do you even discuss the rule that is in force, even though it, for some reasons which I do not understand, wasn't written down in [[RC]] yet? If QATs unrank maps because of black/white combo colors, the rule must be written down. As we can see, they do. That's all.
tbh i expected this thread to be resolved within a few posts as a matter of formality
i think this should be up to the bat or qats to decide.
i also see absolutely no reason for a player to decline something as simple as changing the combo colors.
if they have a really good reason to keep their white or black combo colors, then it's probably fine to keep.
otherwise if they're not being rational at all, just refuse to rank/bubble the map lol.
i also see absolutely no reason for a player to decline something as simple as changing the combo colors.
if they have a really good reason to keep their white or black combo colors, then it's probably fine to keep.
otherwise if they're not being rational at all, just refuse to rank/bubble the map lol.
tiper
We don't discuss whether it makes sense. This rule is just not written down in the ranking criterias, but it was in force for years. According to this post, "pure black and white combo colors are forbidden", which, as it's marked red, also was the main reason to unrank the beatmap. I don't understand why anyone would have wanted to keep this rule unwritten.Kibbleru wrote:
i also see absolutely no reason for a player to decline something as simple as changing the combo colors.
Because rules needs to be followed to 100% while guidelines can be ignored if reasoned. And the map is an example of bad usage.tiper wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would have wanted to keep this rule unwritten.
You either can use them, or you can't. Pick one. There is only "use them if you want, and your map WILL get unqualified, as good usage is "subjective" so fuck you" currently.Stefan wrote:
Because rules needs to be followed to 100% while guidelines can be ignored if reasoned. And the map is an example of bad usage.tiper wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would have wanted to keep this rule unwritten.
An unwritten guideline is not a guideline.
I don't know what this whole fuss is being made for. Just make it a guideline and be done with it. But if the QAT says that "pure black and white colours are UNRANKABLE", then you should make it a rule.
EDIT: After having a small talk with Garven, I came to the conclusion that this "rule" has room for improvement before settling in with it. Further discussions please!
EDIT: After having a small talk with Garven, I came to the conclusion that this "rule" has room for improvement before settling in with it. Further discussions please!
So, I've only mapped like 80% of a difficulty that was expirmental and 20% of a difficulty that I was intending to rank in my entire mapping experience.
I don't know corndogs about mapping.
I've always asked myself, looking back on all the videos and storyboards out there, "Should we really care if the background content is distracting to the player?"
"Should we really care about certain things because other people can disable them?"
"Will players who have no idea about the disabling ability become upset with said map?"
I've played one map, yes, one map, with gray scale combo colors. To be honest, it was hard to read and understand at first because the background was black and white. To be fair, it was pretty neat and different. "Oh, this is cool. I never thought of this before", is something I thought to myself.
But looking at myself now, I can play with ridiculous skins with giant sprite explosions and whatnot. Not everyone is like me though.
There are still things I have yet to understand as stated above.
Why not just tell the mapper something like, "Yo, this map is hard to read with the current combo colors you have. You should try something like (#,#,#) rather than (#,#,#)".
I mean, that's why people mod, right?
I don't know corndogs about mapping.
I've always asked myself, looking back on all the videos and storyboards out there, "Should we really care if the background content is distracting to the player?"
"Should we really care about certain things because other people can disable them?"
"Will players who have no idea about the disabling ability become upset with said map?"
I've played one map, yes, one map, with gray scale combo colors. To be honest, it was hard to read and understand at first because the background was black and white. To be fair, it was pretty neat and different. "Oh, this is cool. I never thought of this before", is something I thought to myself.
But looking at myself now, I can play with ridiculous skins with giant sprite explosions and whatnot. Not everyone is like me though.
There are still things I have yet to understand as stated above.
Why not just tell the mapper something like, "Yo, this map is hard to read with the current combo colors you have. You should try something like (#,#,#) rather than (#,#,#)".
I mean, that's why people mod, right?
This rule sounds like nonsense to me. Are modders seriously going to check whether something is pure white or black? Dimmed users probably either prefer to use their own skin, which comes with custom combo colors or have beatmap skin disabled which uses default colors anyways.
If anything it should be a guideline.
Avoid using pure white as a combo colour as it makes slider ticks hidden while using default skin.
or you could tackle the issue a different way.
Slider ticks must be visible. Avoid using combo colours that excessively blend with the slider ticks. You are welcome to skin your own slider ticks if you want to use a colour that blends.
If anything it should be a guideline.
Avoid using pure white as a combo colour as it makes slider ticks hidden while using default skin.
or you could tackle the issue a different way.
Slider ticks must be visible. Avoid using combo colours that excessively blend with the slider ticks. You are welcome to skin your own slider ticks if you want to use a colour that blends.
tiper
1) It does make sense.TheVileOne wrote:
This rule sounds like nonsense to me
2) Once again, it is already in force.
It seems like I need to say it one more time: there's a beatmap that got disqualified because of pure white combo color. They said, "pure black and white combo colors are forbidden". From then on, you can't call it "a guideline".TheVileOne wrote:
If anything it should be a guideline.
Avoid using pure white as a combo colour as it makes slider ticks hidden while using default skin.
Why does it make sense? Let's list reasons before we commit this to paper. Like I've been saying. Over and over. And over.
From what I've seen and from the information and opinions I've gathered, I've only known of 2 people that have said my combo colors were hard to read. I've even had a BAT look at it and they never mentioned anything about my combo colors. The mapset I speak of is one of my own https://osu.ppy.sh/s/76200 My combo colors are 59,59,59 and 255,255,255. I didn't use pure black because I didn't like the way it looked but the other color is pure white. I want this situation to be assessed from all angles before a decision is made. Thank you~
tiper
Ask another QATs. They unrank beatmaps pointing pure white and black combo colors as the main reason. I'm sure they can list reasons.Garven wrote:
Why does it make sense?
p/3366223/ <- Read this post. There are two choices:
1) It was a mistake and someone just fucked up.
2) It wasn't a mistake. In this case, we do need to write this rule down in [[RC]].
Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion, tiper. Use your brain or stay out please.
tiper
Beatmap got disqualified because of "absolutely nothing"? Well done, then. Keep on showing nice attitude towards the community.Garven wrote:
contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion
UPD:
In order to contribute something to the discussion I will quote Aleks719:
this rule goes from old 2008 or 2009.I can't believe that a BAT with ~1800 kudosu never heard about it.
Should we mention all rules like "don't put objects out of screen", "don't make 300 hitburst look like 100" etcYes, we should. This one is odd and not obvious for newbie mappers.
I modded for 3 years and I never heard of this rule. It has to been something recent (since the time I went on hiatus from modding). I don't want to call it a mistake, because I haven't looked at the specifics and don't really want to. It sounds silly that black combos would not be allowed.
Also if this were a rule it would have been included in aimod years ago. Because it isn't in aimod, I doubt it was ever a rule.
First rule: Hitobjects must never be off-screen.
In Skinning section.
Hitbursts must be clearly distinguishable from each other
Nowhere does it mention restrictions on combo color apart from blending with background elements.
Also if this were a rule it would have been included in aimod years ago. Because it isn't in aimod, I doubt it was ever a rule.
Should we mention all rules like "don't put objects out of screen", "don't make 300 hitburst look like 100" etcThose are actual written rules.
First rule: Hitobjects must never be off-screen.
In Skinning section.
Hitbursts must be clearly distinguishable from each other
Nowhere does it mention restrictions on combo color apart from blending with background elements.
tiper
Updated my post. Someone saying it was a rule and it actually being a rule are two different things.
If it is an unwritten rule, I would like to use this thread as grounds to remove it as a rule since it is obviously outdated. If it was an old rule then it was probably made because it made reverse arrows hard to see. This is no longer an issue, so following an obsolete rule without providing a valid reason is silly.
If it is an unwritten rule, I would like to use this thread as grounds to remove it as a rule since it is obviously outdated. If it was an old rule then it was probably made because it made reverse arrows hard to see. This is no longer an issue, so following an obsolete rule without providing a valid reason is silly.
Topic Starter
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule, as I stated in the OP.
However, apparently some staffs think that this thread can be used in order to discuss whether or not the currently-in-place-but-not-written-down rule makes sense or not, so discussion can still go on.
All I know about the technical stuff is that white colors >apparently< cause bad kiai strobing on >some< skins. I've never experienced this so I dont know about it, but it seems like an issue in the skin rather than the combo colors.
Alltogether I'd just suggest to get rid of this unwritten rule and have it forgotten, but if the devs, who confirmed them being an issues, stick to their opinion, just add the rule to the RC for god's sake
However, apparently some staffs think that this thread can be used in order to discuss whether or not the currently-in-place-but-not-written-down rule makes sense or not, so discussion can still go on.
All I know about the technical stuff is that white colors >apparently< cause bad kiai strobing on >some< skins. I've never experienced this so I dont know about it, but it seems like an issue in the skin rather than the combo colors.
Alltogether I'd just suggest to get rid of this unwritten rule and have it forgotten, but if the devs, who confirmed them being an issues, stick to their opinion, just add the rule to the RC for god's sake
If I may state my opinion:
Pure black or white colours CAN be an issue, and as such changing these should be a "quality standard" as stated in the image above.
This is not added in the Ranking Criteria, but it's a bubble factor which in turn leads to ranking (and unranking)
If anything, colours go into quality standards.
Pure black or white colours CAN be an issue, and as such changing these should be a "quality standard" as stated in the image above.
This is not added in the Ranking Criteria, but it's a bubble factor which in turn leads to ranking (and unranking)
If anything, colours go into quality standards.
tiper
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule
I'm done here. Talking with staff of their mistakes gets you nowhere. Let's just make this rule well-looking.
1) White combo colours, as Zare said, cause bad kiai strobing on some skins. I'd not use "pure white" as definition, because #FFFFFE colour is, nominally, not "pure", but still does the same thing.
2) Pure black combo colours make hitobjects invisible with 100% dim (and default skin).
If you're going to make a rule about this then you should realize that the whole quality criteria (which is imo where colours would fit) needs strict guidelines. It would make mappers' lives a hell of a lot easier.tiper wrote:
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule
I'm done here. Talking with staff of their mistakes gets you nowhere. Let's just make this rule well-looking.
1) White combo colours, as Zare said, cause bad kiai strobing on some skins. I'd not use "pure white" as definition, because #FFFFFE colour is, nominally, not "pure", but still does the same thing.
2) Pure black combo colour makes hitobjects invisible with 100% dim (and default skin).
tiper
Agreed. So many more maps have been targeted due to quality issues that are NOT colours, be it sliders or whatever.tiper wrote:
Let's make it the main point of the thread.Yuzu- wrote:
the whole quality criteria (which is imo where colours would fit) needs strict guidelines.
I will argue that playing with 100% dim is not the way the game was intended to be played by peppy. We don't conform mapping standards to whether or not people will be playing with the background visible. It is fully intended to be played with the background. If you choose to dim it, then you will need to solve the issue of blending yourself.
if the map is intended to play with background then why add a dim option?TheVileOne wrote:
I will argue that playing with 100% dim is not the way the game was intended to be played by peppy. We don't conform mapping standards to whether or not people will be playing with the background visible. It is fully intended to be played with the background. If you choose to dim it, then you will need to solve the issue of blending yourself.
The option is there, when it was added situations like 100% dim should and probably were considered.
tiper
Dim was added to stop people from deleting backgrounds. peppy doesn't want you to use it.
tiper
True. But the reality is that peppy had to do that. As a game developer, he couldn't disrespect the countless amount of players who wanted to play without backrounds. Why would you disrespect them now?TheVileOne wrote:
Dim was added to stop people from deleting backgrounds. peppy doesn't want you to use it.
people deleted backgrounds to have a pitch black background. Adding dim merely stopped them from doing so, while still providing them with a way to do so.TheVileOne wrote:
Dim was added to stop people from deleting backgrounds. peppy doesn't want you to use it.
Providing it with a way doesn't sound help.Yuzu- wrote:
while still providing them with a way to do so
Anyway, this isn't the topic. Maps are made for the players, and if a large portion of players play 100% dim and we KNOW it, wouldn't hurt to have quality standards thinking about these players.
This should not become an official rule until the team comes up with a consensus on whether it should be allowed or disallowed. In my long career of being a modder, which probably predates Alexs BTW I have not heard of this rule. I have not seen any other BATs or modders mention it and it should have been a written rule years ago if it was an actual rule.
I disagree that any condition that changes the original appearance of the beatmap should be considered as part of any mapping rule.
I disagree that any condition that changes the original appearance of the beatmap should be considered as part of any mapping rule.
We're past the combo colors from my point of view. We're not just talking about those, the thing in discussion atm is that "Quality Standards" need to be set straight. It's not supposed to be a rule, it's a guideline because it's NOT in the ranking criteria. It's up to whoever's qualified to decide if the map meets or not the quality standards. The issue here is that you can't find them anywhere atm, and we need a list for this.TheVileOne wrote:
This should not become an official rule until the team comes up with a consensus on whether it should be allowed or disallowed. In my long career of being a modder, which probably predates Alexs BTW I have not heard of this rule. I have not seen any other BATs or modders mention it and it should have been a written rule years ago if it was an actual rule.
I disagree that any condition that changes the original appearance of the beatmap should be considered as part of any mapping rule.
tiper
I've heard once that pure black combo colour is not suggested to use. There was a NTR's (not sure about the mapper, though) beatmap and a shitload of whine about it being unplayable without background.TheVileOne wrote:
I have not seen any other BATs or modders mention it and it should have been a written rule years ago if it was an actual rule.
Even as a guideline, it needs to be supported with specific reasoning that makes sense.
Can we validate that white screws up kiai? I pointed out the slider tick issue that was a problem, but plenty of maps got away with using invisible slider ticks rankable or no. I don't see how this rule is being enforced while that was being allowed back in the day. It's still questionable that it violates the RC because there is an exception clause that requires that the change affect how the map is played and slider ticks do not make a large impact on playability.
Can we validate that white screws up kiai? I pointed out the slider tick issue that was a problem, but plenty of maps got away with using invisible slider ticks rankable or no. I don't see how this rule is being enforced while that was being allowed back in the day. It's still questionable that it violates the RC because there is an exception clause that requires that the change affect how the map is played and slider ticks do not make a large impact on playability.
This could be arguable, but in most cases yes, you're right about this.TheVileOne wrote:
slider ticks do not make a large impact on playability.
I'm merely defending that if the kiai scenario turns out to be troublesome, that it's added as a guideline to a preferably-to-be-made Quality Standard list.
Regarding black colours, I am 100% against them due to dim.
After reading the thread I just realized the only colour that causes problem is the white, I agree sometimes it may fit nicely, but we still should do something about how it strobes in kiai time, so I think this would fit better as a guideline.
Avoid using white as combo colour. This is to prevent strobing within kiai times as well as technical issues with some skins. In the case the circle numbers or slider ticks of the used skin blend with this colour, you should skin them to make them clearly visible.
tbh I don't see black causing many troubles with default settings as white (if it causes any), so I don't think we should take them into consideration.
tiper
Approach circles are almost invisible.DakeDekaane wrote:
tbh I don't see black causing many troubles with default settings as white (if it causes any), so I don't think we should take them into consideration.
Topic Starter
100% is not a default option. If you dim, you do it at your own risk and if needed, should also disable beatmap skin and thus the combo colors.