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About bpm changes

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Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
I've seen a few things lately that cross the line between being difficult and being stupid/unintuitive. I am going to clearly state them here for all you mappers and modders and otherBAT and MAT to read, along with the reasoning.
The BAT has already reached consensus that these things are not rankable, so if you have them currently in your map, you would do well to pay attention.

1. Short-term bpm changes in the lowest difficulty map of a set. By this, I mean bpm changes to half or double speed for a single slider that is not directly preceding a break and/or has no reason to occur in that part of the map. This is not allowed because it is simply too difficult for new players to pick up on it, and by the time they do figure out what just happened, it's reverted back to normal already. I'm sure you can understand how frustrating this would be.

2. Back to back, identical-looking sliders with different bpms. This is because players of a sufficient skill should be able to read your map the first time, rather than learn it by guess-and-check. The entire purpose behind things such as spacing, combo breaks, and other very necessary parts of a map is so that the player can know what to expect, and by the same reasoning that you shouldn't randomly double the time between two notes within a combo while the spacing remains constant, you should also
not randomly double the amount of time a slider takes to complete next to another slider of the same length.

Edited because there is a certain clause people keep forgetting to read.
0_o

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

1. Short-term bpm changes in the lowest difficulty map of a set. By this, I mean bpm changes to half or double speed for a single slider that is not directly preceding a break and/or has no reason to occur in that part of the map. This is not allowed because it is simply too difficult for new players to pick up on it, and by the time they do figure out what just happened, it's reverted back to normal already. I'm sure you can understand how frustrating this would be.
I would say that this should be evaluated on a per-map basis. In general speed-ups should be frowned upon on Easy/Normal, but if it is done correctly a slider speed change could very well be completely intuitive, even on the easiest difficulty.

2. Back to back, identical-looking sliders with different bpms. This is because players of a sufficient skill should be able to read your map the first time, rather than learn it by guess-and-check. The entire purpose behind things such as spacing, combo breaks, and other very necessary parts of a map is so that the player can know what to expect, and by the same reasoning that you shouldn't randomly double the time between two notes within a combo while the spacing remains constant, you should also
not randomly double the amount of time a slider takes to complete next to another slider of the same length.
Again, it all depends on how it's implemented; there ARE ways of making this kind of pattern intuitive and readable on the first attempt (if anyone wants me to elaborate I will). The acceptability of its usage should be determined, like every other aspect of modding, by actually playing the map.
Gabi
Agreed with faceman. you can draw a line at creativity and unituitive.
mtmcl
This thread really gives off a "it was already discussed without your input" sort of feel. Discuss these things outside the mod lounge, please, cause BATs and MATs aren't the only mappers on osu.

HOWEVER, that said, I can see why these two particular things would be frustrating. I know even I have slipped up on quick bpm change sliders, whether they be faster or slower, and I'd like to think I'm a relatively experienced player. I still think these issues, like most other issues, should be taken on a case-per-case basis though. Don't close every door. I've learned by playing and modding and mapping over time that, just when you think there are no more new techniques, you'll find something breathtaking in a new map. The less we stifle creativity, the more likely we are to find these breathtaking mapping techniques.
lukewarmholiday
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Derekku
Shouldn't this be in Gameplay & Rankings?

Anyway, I agree that it's usually a per-case issue.
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
@mtmcl these cases posted are very specific cases designed to allow for anything even a whisker shy of unrankability. If you tell me that something that is unrankable should be rankable, I will slap you across the internet :) Believe it or not, I've actually narrowed these definitions down quite sharply, and I'm not sure that you noticed the qualifications (which I believe have also covered every single counter-example thus far).

As for the BAT consensus/not involving the community thing, I have a few things to say. 1, I made this announcement specifically for the purpose of involving the community. 2, it is significantly easier to speak and form a consensus amongst the 20 or so active or semi-active BAT than it is to do the same with a community of 228k users. Of course I went to the people who were both informed and more likely to form consensus first.


1. @faceman I'm not talking about sliders where more than one slider changes tempo, sliders directly followed by breaks, sliders where the music slows down with the slider, or anything like that. I'm talking about sliders where the music is just bouncing along and all of a sudden the slider is a different speed. I thought I made that clear, but apparently not clear enough.

@mtmcl i don't have enough of a problem with this in any difficulty but the lowest to call it unrankable, but the point is that the people playing the lowest difficulty don't have the skills yet to pick up on these changes

@lukewarm If you read the whole thing, you'll notice that I did make an exception for ones that fit the song perfectly already.


2. @faceman, please elaborate

@lukewarm the idea is that the first two times don't happen either.
Doomsday

Derekku Chan wrote:

I agree that it's usually a per-case issue.
^ pretty much this. I don't mind slowdowns if they actually make sense in the song, but adding slowdowns/speedups to parts of the song where the song doesn't go quieter/louder/whatever are usually frustrating to see.
Jarby
You know, making a thread about it won't stop people from sucking at mapping.
lukewarmholiday
Also SFG when I state my opinion it may agree and disagree at the same time. I know about your exception.
mm201
2x / 0.5x BPMs should be unrankable. Their inherent unreadability goes against every fundamental principle of a rhythm game. The speed changes are also ridiculously exaggerated and awkward to play. Such extreme speed changes should be delegated to insane/crazy/stupid maps only.
0_o

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

I'm not talking about sliders where more than one slider changes tempo, sliders directly followed by breaks, sliders where the music slows down with the slider, or anything like that. I'm talking about sliders where the music is just bouncing along and all of a sudden the slider is a different speed. I thought I made that clear, but apparently not clear enough.
If what you are saying is that the slowdown has to make sense with the music, then yes absolutely. I thought that was already implied :P

please elaborate
Example:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/8295 (Love-Coloured Master Spark [Lunatic])
00:33:113 (1,2) -
There were three sections immediately prior to this section, and they all had two sliders at this point, the first one 1/2 length and the second 1/1 length, all normal speed. At this point the player should be used to this pattern time-wise, so when the 00:33:466 (2) - comes up, it feels natural to hold it for the full 1/1.
The thread is on its 5th page, many skilled players have modded it and nobody saw these sliders as a problem. Why? Because they were intuitive.

So basically, patterns like this can be completely readable if the mapper sets up the map so it feels natural with the music/map. It is difficult to use those speed-ups/slowdowns effectively, but again that should be judged by the people who play it.
Mashley

MetalMario201 wrote:

2x / 0.5x BPMs should be unrankable. Their inherent unreadability goes against every fundamental principle of a rhythm game. The speed changes are also ridiculously exaggerated and awkward to play. Such extreme speed changes should be delegated to insane/crazy/stupid maps only.
I'd like to point you towards my map 'Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars', which (if I say so myself) shows exactly how speed changes should be used.
Nakata Yuji
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
It depends on the warning...I've seen a couple warnings that distracted more than they helped. At either rate, I still think its pretty fishy for the lowest difficulty of a mapset.
mm201
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
RandomJibberish
IMO if it needs a warning it shouldn't be there. It should be forseeable thorugh the combination of the mapping and song. Like a speedup after accelerated spacing that was during a buildup, or starting after a break in a slow feeling section with a slow slider.
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