Context

Title is fairly self-explanatory; current RC says:

Ranking Criteria - Audio - Rules wrote:

Hitsounds must be audible. (...) samples that blend with a song's samples are unacceptable

Trivially, this forbids using as hitsounds the original samples of the song itself. However, osu!mania sees direct influence from IIDX/BMS, which uses full keysounding on maps and has readily available original song samples.

Current situation

This situation has lead to multiple ranked sets in recent times that use some or all of the BMS samples as hitsounding (without being removed from the audio), which breaks the rule. Here are some examples:

1. Morimori Atsushi - Milk (Syadow-)
2. Leaf - Calamity Fortune (Usagi_)
3. Getty vs. DK Dia - Grayed Out -Antifront- (Initial D)
4. Kalse - Laureate Grimoire (A04360436)
5. Silentroom - Nhelv (Leniane)
6. linear ring - enchanted love (ArtZone)
7. linear ring - enchanted love (and the witch's selfish heart)
8. Etc.

The diagnosis is that both mappers and BN/NAT seem to be turning a blind eye to the General RC rule. Indeed, here's two anonymized recent comments regarding the topic:

A certain NAT wrote:

(...) mainly it happen due to we're lenient with hs and not care enough about it yea

A certain mapper wrote:

i've been aware of this rc rule from the start of my hitsounding arc but for some reason people turn a blind eye for bms samples for the sake of recreating the same feeling (...)

This is leading to both uneven application of the rule (between those that do or do not enforce it) and a bad precedent of widely ignoring a Ranking Criteria Rule, which is bad for the system's health.

Options

We should either enforce the rule properly, or modify our RC to make an gamemode-wise exemption. Here's some points to consider:

The purpose of this thread

I would like this thread to be a way to gather opinions on the topic, more evidence and/or even find a possible wording for the exemption if we go that route.

The current wishy-washy enforcement of the RC rules makes little sense. The rule should be scrapped, or an exception should be made for hitsounds+keysounds taken straight from BMS, or the maps shouldn’t be allowed to be ranked entirely. It’s a bit shameful that there’s been a lack of consistency on this. +2

Would rather just scrap the rule, personally

Having hitsounds that match the song make for a very cool playing experience, especially if you turn the actual music down since it makes it feel like you're actually playing the song

No need for a BMS-specific exception since this can occur for many other reasons as well.

Scrap it, I agree with this since honestly, using BMS samples for a map can actually make it a fun experience even for people that don’t hitsound actively and would like to get into it without having to search for samples far and wide.

This rule solely existed to separate keysounds and hit sounds and I don’t think that the argument holds true after so many years.

I will write my own opinion here to not sway people reading the -hopefully unbiased- starting post.

I think that, prioritizing quality gameplay before anything else, removing the rule for osu!mania causes more harm than good.

1. For those who play w/o hitsounds, having this kind of keysounding or not is irrelevant for gameplay
2. For those who play w/ hitsounds, this kind of keysounding is detrimental (barely no active feedback and possible sound distortions)

I believe the rule should be kept and properly enforced.

________________________

Ryax wrote:

especially if you turn the actual music down since it makes it feel like you're actually playing the song

Please notice that removing the rule will allow maps that only copy a few of the original BMS hitsounds (and therefore cannot be played with 0% music volume). This is the case of most of the examples listed.

Honestly they could always just turn it into a guideline explaining the allowance of it for niche cases to replicate the feeling of BMS keysounding. Though most of the time keysounders did it in a way that isn't exactly true to how it's done traditionally.

If someone really wanted to commit to the gimmick then the input feedback (the samples) itself should act as playing the music. These map examples contain an audio playing the song, so its just playing 2 songs at the same time. This reason alone is why I personally believe it should be enforced, because it doesn't benefit the people playing with hitsounds enabled to have no input feedback. The horrid glitchy audio overlap it creates (prominent in samples like crashes/cymbals) can really be disrupting as well.

The only case I've seen this is properly done is on this map, which is very old (and I think this gimmick of using a silent audio and have every sound from the song keysounded isn't even allowed anymore)
Yuuna Sasara feat. Tai no Kobone - Imperishable Night 2006

Active hitsounders should already have a large library of samples to use anyway so I don't really see this a problem if it were to be enforced, it took me like a few hours to compile samples just from FL Studio alone. I'm almost certain people are capable of recreating songs using their own distinct samples (ones that are not identical to the song), not only would it solve the problem of having no input feedback, it doesn't break the rule and there won't be any audio clipping. Here's just one of the examples of a map fully keysounded (to recreate the song) using unique samples that are different to the song.
Manel Navola - Poisonous Chasm

At the very least, this rule (for the mania gamemode) should at least be changed in some way. It is dated and redundant considering most BNs are simply unaware or turn a blind eye to it, creating a lack of consistency and arbitrary exceptions. The pros and cons mentioned above by Quenlla are exactly how I feel about the whole thing as well, and should be considered to re-shape this rule to be more up-to-date with how things are done in recent times. I get the feeling that people just want to recreate the traditional feeling of a BMS/IIDX chart, and to prevent that wouldn't feel like a good idea, so I'm not really certain how to resolve this in a way that is satisfactory to all parties while covering the cons.

I think this rule really should just be removed yeah, +1

Assigning myself this thread. Believe there is merit in the concerns show. Not so much in the rule itself, but rather its clarity. Or lack thereof.

While I wouldn't be opposed to a removal of the rule, I do not think we should jump the gun this quickly. I fear that other modes or use cases we may not be familiar with make use of this. Removing it for the sole purpose of our mode would seem selfish.

That said, I'm of the opinion that:

1. The rule should be made more clear, as it clearly seems many people (myself included) do not understand what the spirit of the restriction was to begin with.
2. The rule should be enforced more consistently. It seems like we opted to simply ignore the rule, or apply it sporadically, rather than to ask ourselves when and why it should be applied to begin with.

I'll start a discussion internally with other members of the team who may be more in the knows of what this rule entails, and suggest a reword that's more clearly representative of when exactly this should be applied to. Ideally, the reword should not make things complicated by adding yet another exception for Mania — rather, it should make it easier to understand by anyone who reads it.

Oh my oh my

How many times have we tried to enforce this but it never worked. Stopped counting at some point.

As far as i can think back, osu!mania hit-sounding consist in most of the cases of blending samples. Not just key-sounding.
Even I did that at the beginning because I was told that is how hit-sounding in osu!mania works.

I think there are multiple issues that need work:

1. First: Making a clear definition of the term "key-sounding" across the entire game (all game modes).
   I made the experience that this term has a different meaning depending on the game mode. Even I don't know which one is the right one.
   For me: It's only key-sounding when samples are removed from the audio file and then re-added through hit-sounding.
   Just adding 1:1 blending "hit sounds" is for me not key-sounding.

1. Second: Clarify the way of hit-sounding for osu!mania.
   Like stated above, it somehow got established over the time that using blending hit-sounds in osu!mania is "the normal way of hit-sounding". Maybe it's because osu!mania is heavy influenced by IIDX/BMS. And I do not talk just about the example beatmaps posted in the opening post which used "key-sounds" to blend, but more about the general hit-sounding in osu!mania.
   Do we want to continue this way? Do we want to change it? What's the way for osu!mania. I believe it would be nearly impossible to change the way of hit-sounding in osu!mania by now and make it like the other modes.
   An addition to the osu!mania Rules/Guidelines could be here a help to clarify this.

1. Third: Clear the way for "key-sounding".
   I think once the issues above are addressed, a solution for these "key-sounded" beatmaps linked in the opening post can be found. Like, should this from the o!m RC should be more enforced, re-written and removed:
   
   

   Ranking Criteria wrote:

   Do not use keysounds without hitnormal support. If hitsounds blend perfectly with the song, feedback for hitting notes is minimal. However, when keysounds extracted directly from a song are used as a replacement for a song's audio, they do not need hitnormal support.

So yeah, overall I do not think there is an easy solution for this, but a valid concern which could help prevent misunderstanding in the future.

I support removing it from the rule because I don't feel any major inconvenience or strangeness from using it by overwriting keysound