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binding 4 keys for clicking instead of 2

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sstonn
sstonn

karlthestampede wrote:

I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?
It is unfair to those who have been playing much longer than you. You stroll up into a community of a game that you have been playing for three months and complain about a simple aspect of the game that others are okay with yet somehow needs changing because you can't deal with having to practice something? (this is a very wordy sentence.) Why should we listen to you and fulfill all of your requests? What gives you that authority/right/privilege?

karlthestampede wrote:

You also say that it keeps the game physically challenging. Besides precise tablet/mouse movement, the only thing that makes the game physically challenging is keyboard tapping, so I'm going to assume that by saying this you mean that you value skill in pressing keys really fast. I fail to see how that makes the game more interesting/fun/challenging besides just making you spend more time practicing a mindless repetitive motion.
Pressing keys/buttons fast is the point of osu. It has been that way for seven years and somehow I don't think your whining is going to change that. If you don't like the game, you are free to leave and find another game whose developers might value your whining.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
The thing is, streaming requires precise and consistent quick button presses. From prior experience with other rhythm games, I can safely say that the more buttons you introduce, the less consistent you will be. Changing the game to support 4 buttons will completely change the game and add a different skill that wasn't required in the first place.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Considering that the RANKING SYSTEM has an ENTIRE SECTION called SPEED, I don't think this is a good idea.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

YayMii wrote:

The thing is, streaming requires precise and consistent quick button presses. From prior experience with other rhythm games, I can safely say that the more buttons you introduce, the less consistent you will be. Changing the game to support 4 buttons will completely change the game and add a different skill that wasn't required in the first place.
Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.
Coffee Hero
Coffee Hero
Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.
What are you even talking about
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Shirokami- wrote:

Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.
What are you even talking about
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Shirokami- wrote:

Wrong. Required accuracy decreases as stream speed increases because of how OD works, so the benefits of two additional buttons would quickly outweigh the detriments.
What are you even talking about
Since for each OD value the time window is the same no matter the bpm, it's easier to get good accuracy at high speed (as long as you can reliably keep the required speed).
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple
I thought it was pretty obvious that high BPM streams are easier to do accurately than low BPM streams (provided you have the speed required)

karlthestampede wrote:

Purple wrote:

Big part of osu! Is about how fast you can move your fingers. Chess isn't a good analogy, this game requieres more physical activity than some "sports". Im sure Peppy understood that when he added the DT mod. But you don't have to be ultra fast to play high tier. You can achieve extremely impressive scores without much speed. The game is fully enjoyable without speed. Seriously, time to let the thread die.
I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?
Huh? You don't need speed, so why keep complaining? Work hard just like everyone else if you want it. It's as simple as that.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Full Tablet wrote:

(as long as you can reliably keep the required speed).
This is what I was trying to get at in my other post...you need to be able to physically keep a steady beat, which is more difficult with 4 fingers in comparison to 2. There's a definite difference between pressing several buttons and simply alternating.
Regardless of how difficult it is in comparison, it still takes a different type of skill. Consistency vs. stamina. Either way, it'd completely change the way the game plays if implemented.
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 1 time in total.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

mcdoomfrag wrote:

I don't know if it's even possible/viable for someone to deathstream accurately with 3 or more keys anyways, so what's the point of arguing?
Ever heard of mania?


karlthestampede wrote:

Purple wrote:

Big part of osu! Is about how fast you can move your fingers. Chess isn't a good analogy, this game requieres more physical activity than some "sports". Im sure Peppy understood that when he added the DT mod. But you don't have to be ultra fast to play high tier. You can achieve extremely impressive scores without much speed. The game is fully enjoyable without speed. Seriously, time to let the thread die.
I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself there. If you don't need speed, then why is letting everyone go fast more easily an unfair advantage?
He didn't, he only said that while speed a fair part of osu!, you can achieve impressive scores that don't necesserily need a lot of speed, like most HD HR scores for example
Coffee Hero
Coffee Hero
Since for each OD value the time window is the same no matter the bpm, it's easier to get good accuracy at high speed (as long as you can reliably keep the required speed).
you lost me at "same no matter the bpm"
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Example: OD10 = 18ms window for a 300, so the higher the BPM is, the closer the circles are in the timeline, so there is less room for error, thus easier to get higher accuracy
that's the theory behind it at least
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

YayMii wrote:

you need to be able to physically keep a steady beat, which is more difficult with 4 fingers in comparison to 2
No, you just need to push four buttons in the space of one beat. The actual timing of these four hits relative to each other becomes less and less important as time increases. Given that you'd have four buttons, getting all four of those hits would be trivial, making streaming at obscenely high BPMs a joke. Consistency would cease to even be part of the equation.

YayMii wrote:

Either way, it'd completely change the way the game plays if implemented.
No, it wouldn't. All that would change is that rather than ramping up from single tapping to alternating as necessary, players would ramp up from single tapping to quad-tapping.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

YayMii wrote:

Either way, it'd completely change the way the game plays if implemented.
No, it wouldn't. All that would change is that rather than ramping up from single tapping to alternating as necessary, players would ramp up from single tapping to quad-tapping.
No, it would
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

GoldenWolf wrote:

No, it would
Doubtful.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Why? The end-game of osu!, which is mainly speed, would become meaningless.
Like, the only thing that would remotely be close from being challenging speed-wise would be Mad Machine DT (would be like actual 202.5 BPM streams), so the maps would be drastically different no matter how you look at it.
Coffee Hero
Coffee Hero
need a new mod then, quadruple time.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
And maps would have to have low AR like 6 to compensate, else it'd be too fast to even react to, making them clusterfucks at 800 BPM with 20 objects on the screen
See how that would drastically change the gameplay?
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
Okay, I really don't see how this OD theory has anything to do with this.

I just gave 4 keys a try with my G710+'s macro keys (with a bit of trickery to get it to recognize every keypress), and I can easily say that it's much more difficult to stream with 4 fingers than it is with 2 (3 keys is a bit easier, but still inconsistent).
Even mashing, regardless of BPM, can only result in a 300-100-100-50 (or similar) pattern unless proper technique is developed. If that doesn't say anything about "requiring a different skill", then I don't know what does.
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 2 times in total.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
It's just harder for you because you are not used to it yet.
Go play mania for a few months and you'll see how easy this type of "stair streaming" actually is.

/E: Just realized I missed the point you were trying to make... Ignore me lol
Inori
360 posts
Joined March 2011
Inori
God can all of you just stop with the theories and face it.

This is a bad idea.
Lokovodo
463 posts
Joined December 2012
Lokovodo
There is a way to do this with a script and i have tried it before with a friend and its extremely difficult to use and i could not see someone ever going far with 4 keys in this game.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

GoldenWolf wrote:

Why? The end-game of osu!, which is mainly speed, would become meaningless.
People would just start mapping things faster and faster so players were still struggling to keep up. But that isn't even my point; this wouldn't fundamentally change the way you approach gameplay, it would only alter the metagame.

YayMii wrote:

Okay, I really don't see how this OD theory has anything to do with this.
It's easiest to see at the extreme. At a high enough BPM all four hits would fall within the 18ms OD period, meaning you could literally hit them all at the same tie and get 300s for all four. All that matters is that you hit the four of them within one beat, their positions within that beat cease to matter.
Coffee Hero
Coffee Hero
All that matters is that you hit the four of them within one beat, their positions within that beat cease to matter
No, you cant hit a note unless its the very next note in the beatmap. So you couldnt just hit 4 keys at once because only 1 would register
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
When I said "regardless of BPM", i was referring to absolutely everything I tried, ranging from ~130bpm to ~340bpm. I still believe that OD has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

YayMii wrote:

When I said "regardless of BPM", i was referring to absolutely everything I tried, ranging from ~130bpm to ~340bpm. I still believe that OD has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
Ok well it's still one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

Shirokami- wrote:

All that matters is that you hit the four of them within one beat, their positions within that beat cease to matter
No, you cant hit a note unless its the very next note in the beatmap. So you couldnt just hit 4 keys at once because only 1 would register
It's just an example. Leniency increases with speed.

YayMii wrote:

When I said "regardless of BPM", i was referring to absolutely everything I tried, ranging from ~130bpm to ~340bpm. I still believe that OD has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
Until we can figure out a way to get all four keys to act independently, user tests are largely useless. How would you determine if the inaccurate hit was the result of misclick?
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

Until we can figure out a way to get all four keys to act independently, user tests are largely useless. How would you determine if the inaccurate hit was the result of misclick?

YayMii wrote:

I just gave 4 keys a try with my G710+'s macro keys (with a bit of trickery to get it to recognize every keypress)
Do I really need to keep repeating myself?

-----

jesus1412 wrote:

Ok well it's still one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of.
I never said it was a good idea in the first place :P
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 2 times in total.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

YayMii wrote:

Do I really need to keep repeating myself?
I don't have the equipment to replicate your testing conditions, and I'm not about to just take you at your word.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

YayMii wrote:

Do I really need to keep repeating myself?
I don't have the equipment to replicate your testing conditions, and I'm not about to just take you at your word.
I bet you do have the equipment but you're lying!
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
I have the keys mapped as short taps. What I did prevents me from playing sliders, but we're talking about streams, so they're irrelevant. I'm testing on various stream maps with NoFail.

If I map 2 keys both to K1 like this and use them exclusively, I am able to play streams properly without any interference between keys. This should already prove any doubts about interference.
I simply did the same with K2 and used 4 fingers. I even mapped the macros to K1|K2|K1|K2 so I don't hit the same key twice in a row (further reducing the likeliness of interference between the keys).

I can make a video if you still don't believe me. I don't really like to record myself sucking though, so I hope the "2 keys on K1" is sufficient enough to prove there's no interference.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl
I didn't mean I don't believe there's no interference, I meant I'm not about to take your word for leniency not increasing as speed increases. I'm not in a position to verify an increase in difficulty myself, so I'm sticking to my OD argument.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
I was referring to this:

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

Until we can figure out a way to get all four keys to act independently, user tests are largely useless. How would you determine if the inaccurate hit was the result of misclick?
This is implying that my tests are inaccurate simply due to the fact that the keys aren't acting independently. Interference between keys is the only problem that can prevent user tests with macros to be inaccurate from this lack of independence, but as I said, the way I'm testing this eliminates almost all crosstalk.

And I didn't try to prove nor disprove your OD argument... I'm just saying that I think it's irrelevant.

Maybe I shouldn't have said it as objectively as I said it earlier... It's more difficult for me personally, as I am already able to stream with 2 fingers. Sure, some people may find it easier due to the reduced amount of energy used. But my point was that it does add a greater element of inconsistency that would only serve as a gameplay element that wasn't there in the first place.

EDIT: lol I keep editing my posts while people are reading them
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 2 times in total.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

YayMii wrote:

the way I'm testing this eliminates almost all crosstalk.
I can't test the way you're testing, so I can't verify any of your results. That's my point.

YayMii wrote:

The amount of inconsistency that you get from playing with 4 fingers still prevents you from consistently hitting streams at the BPMs of even the fastest ranked maps, and that the process of becoming more consistent with 4 fingers would add another gameplay element that wasn't there in the first place.
Assuming my argument regarding OD is irrelevant, I don't see this as a fundamental gameplay alteration. Rather, I see it as an extension of already existing gameplay elements. The process of learning to go from two fingers to four would be the same as going from one to two.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

YayMii wrote:

the way I'm testing this eliminates almost all crosstalk.
I can't test the way you're testing, so I can't verify any of your results. That's my point.

YayMii wrote:

The amount of inconsistency that you get from playing with 4 fingers still prevents you from consistently hitting streams at the BPMs of even the fastest ranked maps, and that the process of becoming more consistent with 4 fingers would add another gameplay element that wasn't there in the first place.
Assuming my argument regarding OD is irrelevant, I don't see this as a fundamental gameplay alteration. Rather, I see it as an extension of already existing gameplay elements. The process of learning to go from two fingers to four would be the same as going from one to two.
resulting in way higher speed than well... the past 2.28 billion ranked plays
fundamental change.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet
I think adding 2 more keys would be viable only if only maps that are specified to be playable with 4 keys can be played with all keys (like o!mania charts have different key modes). But even then, it would cause some problems with ranking fairness (changing the rules of the game after so much time), in that case there would be 2 ways to do it:

1) Make 4-key maps unrankable.
2) Create a separate ranking that includes 4-key plays (so the ranking with 2-keys is unaffected).
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
@NarrillNezzurh: Not sure if you caught my edits. I probably should've stated earlier that my difficulties with 4 fingers were subjective. I personally find streaming with 2 fingers to be easier than streaming with 4 fingers. But that's besides the point. I've stated various times that the problem with implementing this is that it changes the game significantly enough to add another aspect to the game's difficulty while eliminating another.

Also, just a step back to the OD argument and why it's irrelevant: This is a rhythm game. Regardless of the OD's leniency, the objective of the game is to hit the beats on time. Even if the timing windows do allow for mashing, it doesn't mean that it's the correct way to play. It's the same reason why you don't see any 2B maps (for example) getting ranked, despite being playable.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
You need to map your mouse click to other keys, using K1 and K2 on two different keys each won't work (tried just to see if it would work).

This isn't really cheating since the game itself allows you to play with four keys at the same time. By mapping your left and right click to, say, C and V you would be able to play the game with four keys, therefore allowing you to stream very high BPMs without any problem.

I don't know how hard this setup would be to play with or if it's considered cheating. Truth is it's technically not since you are using the four keys the game allows you to. If this is considered cheating then you shouldn't be able to use four different keys, but then again there are some players who click for 1/2 and z/x for streams so there's that.

I don't think playing with four keys would be that hard, it would surely eliminate the "this stream is too fast" factor.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Wishy wrote:

You need to map your mouse click to other keys, using K1 and K2 on two different keys each won't work (tried just to see if it would work).
I've already tried this, as I can macro mouse buttons on my keyboard. It still doesn't work.
osu! treats K1 and M1 (as well as K2 and M2 respectively) as the same key.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It doesn't sound legit if you're not using a mouse to click keys intended to be played with the mouse. Also you would be using a macho to gain an advantage, which is just a bad idea in general.
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