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[Proposal - osu!standard] Further relax ambiguous slider rule for Expert difficulties

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Total Posts
13
Howard W
Beatmap Nominator
423 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Howard W
Current rule:
The slider path is allowed to be ambiguous if the cursor can stay inside the slider's follow circle without any movement away from the slider head.
Despite this rule getting added in 2021 to allow the use of some burai, I feel that it is still too restrictive and disallows burais that are deemed to be acceptable in their contexts. (example)

Proposed change:
Ambiguous slider paths are allowed if a 300 can be achieved on the slider without any movement away from the slider head.
It seems like the proposed change is the general understanding of what is currently allowed among a few bns anyways, based on the feedback from the example above. The current rule has also been ignored altogether in at least one ranked case: 04:23:965 of Scub's King Atlantis. Granted, the proposed rule doesn't allow for the King Atlantis sliders since you would have to aim the slider ticks but it at least loosens up a few more cases such as melloe's map in the example above.

This is my first time doing one of these so I would love further thoughts to refine this if necessary.
Last edited by Howard W , edited 3 times in total.
Basensorex
Beatmap Nominator
312 posts
Joined January 2018
Basensorex
+1 this is what i thought the rule already was
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,106 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
yeah seems fine to me
Asphyxia
Beatmap Nominator
2,000 posts
Joined June 2012
Asphyxia
+1 don't see the reason why this wouldn't be a good idea as everyone who plays experts, especially gimmicky / techy ones know the concept of cheesing sliders anyway
Net0
Beatmap Nominator
1,258 posts
Joined October 2014
Net0
To give further context, the DQ in the example showed in op happened because for some NATs/BNs the understanding of the rule is this one;

The slider path is allowed to be ambiguous under the following circustance; When the slider follow circle always stay intersected with the slider head.

This understand is similar to the offscreen rule, where what matters is the visual identification of two elements; slider head and slider follow circle, and has nothing to do with movement from the cursor. That's what makes the current word of the rule horrible for the understanding of everyone.

I don't know what direction this discussion will lead, but the current rule needs to be re-worked for better clarification.
AJT
538 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
+1 since this also encompasses every scenario covered by the current rule. Probably best to not use personal pronouns in the phrasing, ergo:

Ambiguous slider paths are allowed if a 300 can be achieved on the slider without any movement away from the slider head.
Howard W
Beatmap Nominator
423 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Howard W
ye sure, edited to what ajt posted
Last edited by Howard W , edited 2 times in total.
yaspo
osu! Alumni
258 posts
Joined September 2014
yaspo
To give clarity on the case of King Atlantis
  1. Scub asked ppy and he was okay with it after deliberation (i recommend this strategy)
  2. the examples in King Atlantis are still very close to the current ruling because they follow the same idea, except you have to quickly move to the center first, which is probably why said deliberation was okay with it
---

Personally I'm not entirely onboard with the idea of just requiring 300s alone?
It means you essentially allow any slidershape as long as
  1. the head overlaps the tail
  2. there are no sliderticks
allowing for very large sliders like this
problems being that
  1. if you hold, the sliderball will give you feedback that you're not playing it correctly -- even if you would get your 300 in the end (which I'd say is misleading/confusing)
  2. if you decide to respond to that feedback and re-adjust, there is a good chance you'll get a forced 100 due to not being able to catch up to the high SV (which is rude)
  3. there is also a case to be made for players generally being more drawn to follow sliders to begin with, that's what the game has always taught them to do (which is why a clear path is desirable)
in the end the player receives conflicting information on what to do (follow vs not follow), and has to break away from mechanics they learned before
which from a gameplay design point i personally think is a bit questionable

the "must be within sliderball" limitation guarantees correct feedback and still nicely fits within the game's mechanics, so I much prefer it in that sense

---

ofcourse I can see the idea of Expert players having a more advanced understanding of the game and having no issues with understanding edge-cases like this, but I also wouldn't want to take that for granted
so wanted to still share my considerations
Last edited by yaspo , edited 2 times in total.
melloe
269 posts
Joined February 2013
melloe
if you get 300, there are no sliderticks. how would they sliderbreak if there are no sliderticks
yaspo
osu! Alumni
258 posts
Joined September 2014
yaspo
woops, brainfart there, ty for pointing it out
Asphyxia
Beatmap Nominator
2,000 posts
Joined June 2012
Asphyxia

yaspo wrote:

Personally I'm not entirely onboard with the idea of just requiring 300s alone?
It means you essentially allow any slidershape as long as
  1. the head overlaps the tail
  2. there are no sliderticks
allowing for very large sliders like this
If that slider in your picture is 300-able by holding your cursor still on the head of the slider, I genuinely don't see the issue.

yaspo wrote:

  1. there is also a case to be made for players generally being more drawn to follow sliders to begin with, that's what the game has always taught them to do (which is why a clear path is desirable)
in the end the player receives conflicting information on what to do (follow vs not follow), and has to break away from mechanics they learned before
which from a gameplay design point i personally think is a bit questionable
I don't think this is that valid anymore as players from a wide skill range know and have been introduced to slider cheesing. As the players evolve, as mapping evolves, rules should accomodate that and I feel because of that, this current rule is quite outdated.

There's plenty of maps that go against what you're advocating for. There has been attempts of introducing ''2b'' (or just double tapping) in some cases and even I have introduced slider cheesing (by holding the head of the slider to get 300 without having to move), but because they weren't long (enough) sliders or burai, no one really batted an eye. This would just go a small step forward whilst letting mappers have more freedom.

I also don't think this would be abused, as the sliders would still have to fit the maps' overall theme and mood.

Maps in question are ScubDomino's Burnt Rice and my Machine Gun Kelly's Forget Me Too

tl;dr as the times change, so should rules so let's not dwell in the past anymore

(sorry for chaotic post, have to leave to work)
McEndu
1,127 posts
Joined March 2019
McEndu
In Lazer, along with sliderhead accuracy, slider ticks don't influence the score (300/100/50) dealt out by slider heads, necessitating a new RC proposal to resolve potential confusion in 2030 for example.

I think "...if a 300 can be achieved on the slider..." could be changed to something like "...if all slider ticks and the slider end can be caught..." for future-proofing.
Howard W
Beatmap Nominator
423 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Howard W

yaspo wrote:

It means you essentially allow any slidershape as long as
  1. the head overlaps the tail
  2. there are no sliderticks
allowing for very large sliders like this
i feel like this example is fine(?) its just like u said, i think expert players have an advanced understanding of the game that gives them an easier time at interpreting these movements and would just default to cheesing extreme stuff like this at high sv. (see 02:40:546 in this map which is kinda the same idea) tbf not as high sv as what ur suggesting but i feel that these would still be fine with perfect overlaps and higher sv



McEndu wrote:

In Lazer, along with sliderhead accuracy, slider ticks don't influence the score (300/100/50) dealt out by slider heads, necessitating a new RC proposal to resolve potential confusion in 2030 for example.

I think "...if a 300 can be achieved on the slider..." could be changed to something like "...if all slider ticks and the slider end can be caught..." for future-proofing.
i had it originally written as 
...if perfect score could be achieved...
which might be better wording in this case? i edited it to what ajt said cuz it seemed to be more consistent with what "perfect score" is referred to currently in the rc. it might be too vague to use that wording though. might not be worth accounting for lazer right now since i think simple clarifications like that should be easy in the future (i think) and using 300 is pretty clear as is for current context but im open to more ideas of course

Hit100 and hit300 must be different from corresponding geki and katu skin elements. Hit300g, hit300k, and hit100k indicate if players perfectly hit all 300 in a combo.
was the rule i was referencing for consistency.
Last edited by Howard W , edited 3 times in total.
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