There's no rhythm to it and you're clearly not tapping once per input, a singular motion awards you several inputs, the double standards between this and DKS is absurd. Why have we not dealt with this issue yet?? The tapping method is against the nature of the game and ruins the spirit of it, it discourages tapping normally on reasonable BPM maps and encourages scraping your keyboard with no rhythmic intent to push for higher BPMs in a game which doesn't account for these absurd keyboard abusing techniques. There are multiple reasons this is incredibly unhealthy.

You arent helped by a software like dks, raketapping is all on the person. Its a technique as you say yourself, though it does require RT to really be effective. There's still nothing rule breaking about the technique. You can argue it "breaks the spirit of the game" or whatever you want to, but in my opinion you should be able to play however you want and not get banned, unless its literally unironically cheating, and raketapping is not.

Honestly its hard to even benefit from raking except on a select few maps to get medals easier and get like 700s max unless you are using EZDT to rake, that opens up the door to really any stream map.

lexie wrote:

There's no rhythm to it and you're clearly not tapping once per input, a singular motion awards you several inputs, the double standards between this and DKS is absurd. Why have we not dealt with this issue yet?? The tapping method is against the nature of the game and ruins the spirit of it, it discourages tapping normally on reasonable BPM maps and encourages scraping your keyboard with no rhythmic intent to push for higher BPMs in a game which doesn't account for these absurd keyboard abusing techniques. There are multiple reasons this is incredibly unhealthy.

Anyone who complains about something being "against the spirit of the game" are the people that need to get over themselves. That apparently includes you.

Rake tapping isn't even that feasible on maps that aren't either absurdly fast in bpm or absurdly fast in stream speed, plus it isn't against the rules as it's still one input to one output. To be frank, if we get upwards of 350+bpm streaming, rake tapping (or anything similar to that) will be the only way we can actually hit those without relying on something like dks to basically co-opt Cloutiful's technique and somehow regulate it only being okay on those kinds of maps. Which is simultaneously one of the dumbest things to ever allow and nearly impossible to really control (not from the map itself but from how you're going to judge what map is worth it and which one isn't).

In short, we haven't "dealt" with the issue because there is no issue at all.

Also, just because rake tapping isn't currently refined enough to have no rhythm isn't the same as it not being able to have rhythm at all. Perhaps it'll never truly have a rhythm you can keep consistently (which at those kinds of speeds is a ridiculous ask in the first place), but we can find a way.

Rake tapping has been a controversial subject for quite a while, and even today we still talk about if it should be banned or not. Knowing that anyone with a keyboard can reproduce this cheese playstyle, I'm sure it doesn't violate any rules of fair play compared to DKS.

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

There's no rhythm to it and you're clearly not tapping once per input, a singular motion awards you several inputs, the double standards between this and DKS is absurd. Why have we not dealt with this issue yet?? The tapping method is against the nature of the game and ruins the spirit of it, it discourages tapping normally on reasonable BPM maps and encourages scraping your keyboard with no rhythmic intent to push for higher BPMs in a game which doesn't account for these absurd keyboard abusing techniques. There are multiple reasons this is incredibly unhealthy.

Anyone who complains about something being "against the spirit of the game" are the people that need to get over themselves. That apparently includes you.

Rake tapping isn't even that feasible on maps that aren't either absurdly fast in bpm or absurdly fast in stream speed, plus it isn't against the rules as it's still one input to one output. To be frank, if we get upwards of 350+bpm streaming, rake tapping (or anything similar to that) will be the only way we can actually hit those without relying on something like dks to basically co-opt Cloutiful's technique and somehow regulate it only being okay on those kinds of maps. Which is simultaneously one of the dumbest things to ever allow and nearly impossible to really control (not from the map itself but from how you're going to judge what map is worth it and which one isn't).

In short, we haven't "dealt" with the issue because there is no issue at all.

Also, just because rake tapping isn't currently refined enough to have no rhythm isn't the same as it not being able to have rhythm at all. Perhaps it'll never truly have a rhythm you can keep consistently (which at those kinds of speeds is a ridiculous ask in the first place), but we can find a way.

I understand that this isn't a problem on the majority of maps but the few maps it does affect, it affects heavily. I personally don't believe one swipe across the keyboard should be able to output up to 8 inputs but maybe that's a difference of opinions. When someone wants to find the fastest osu! player from outside of the community and they see rake tapping it's really quite a damaging way to see this community. As someone who is testing raking it just feels like a cheap way to play certain maps that otherwise I could not play because my fingers don't move that fast. I still think that getting multiple inputs out of one motion is cheating. Agree to disagree.

> the double standards between this and DKS is absurd

if someone ever gets good at acc while raketapping please let me know.

chromb wrote:

> the double standards between this and DKS is absurd

if someone ever gets good at acc while raketapping please let me know.

I personally think the lack of accuracy speaks the lack of rhythm. The fact they get any accuracy at all is the result of a flawed system.

first 13 star fc with rake lol

lexie wrote:

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

There's no rhythm to it and you're clearly not tapping once per input, a singular motion awards you several inputs, the double standards between this and DKS is absurd. Why have we not dealt with this issue yet?? The tapping method is against the nature of the game and ruins the spirit of it, it discourages tapping normally on reasonable BPM maps and encourages scraping your keyboard with no rhythmic intent to push for higher BPMs in a game which doesn't account for these absurd keyboard abusing techniques. There are multiple reasons this is incredibly unhealthy.

Anyone who complains about something being "against the spirit of the game" are the people that need to get over themselves. That apparently includes you.

Rake tapping isn't even that feasible on maps that aren't either absurdly fast in bpm or absurdly fast in stream speed, plus it isn't against the rules as it's still one input to one output. To be frank, if we get upwards of 350+bpm streaming, rake tapping (or anything similar to that) will be the only way we can actually hit those without relying on something like dks to basically co-opt Cloutiful's technique and somehow regulate it only being okay on those kinds of maps. Which is simultaneously one of the dumbest things to ever allow and nearly impossible to really control (not from the map itself but from how you're going to judge what map is worth it and which one isn't).

In short, we haven't "dealt" with the issue because there is no issue at all.

Also, just because rake tapping isn't currently refined enough to have no rhythm isn't the same as it not being able to have rhythm at all. Perhaps it'll never truly have a rhythm you can keep consistently (which at those kinds of speeds is a ridiculous ask in the first place), but we can find a way.

I understand that this isn't a problem on the majority of maps but the few maps it does affect, it affects heavily. I personally don't believe one swipe across the keyboard should be able to output up to 8 inputs but maybe that's a difference of opinions. When someone wants to find the fastest osu! player from outside of the community and they see rake tapping it's really quite a damaging way to see this community. As someone who is testing raking it just feels like a cheap way to play certain maps that otherwise I could not play because my fingers don't move that fast. I still think that getting multiple inputs out of one motion is cheating. Agree to disagree.

How are they getting multiple outputs out of one input? Swiping your hand across the keys to hit one key multiple times is not the same thing as hitting one key once with a finger and getting two outputs. Those are two very distinctly opposing interactions. doing that over multiple key would only be cheating if that's also getting two output from one input; two inputs for one output (that is, two different keys that give the same output) is already essentially allowed since you can play with mouse-clicks and keyboard taps already and the only issue would be getting those mouse-clicks to the keyboard or getting multiple keys to map to the same action.

There is very little point in trying to keep everyone rigidly stuck to just using two fingers to tap as fast as possible when it will get to the point that such a playstyle literally won't be able to keep up with how fast maps are gonna be. Classic Tetris players invented hypertapping and then rolling to combat the lvl 29 speeds of the "killscreen" that is lvl 29. GH/RB players invented rake-strumming to help with 20NPS+ strumming sections (which can actually be quite rhythmic, btw). Rake-tapping will be our next step forward.

lexie wrote:

chromb wrote:

> the double standards between this and DKS is absurd

if someone ever gets good at acc while raketapping please let me know.

I personally think the lack of accuracy speaks the lack of rhythm. The fact they get any accuracy at all is the result of a flawed system.

Expecting high acc. from that high speeds with such a currently unrefined technique is laughably absurd. And why are we blaming the system when it's just registering the inputs it receives?

I know Osu is a rhythm game, and in a way I appreciate that you're trying to keep to that idea. But if mappers are going to make maps that have 350bpm+ streams (either NM or with dt), that's basically right on the outer edge of what players can reasonably play with just two fingers alone. Why are you advocating that we stay in place and not adapt just because this concept currently doesn't match the idea of playing by rhythm?

I have to say that I am staunchly anti-rake myself. Peppy did mention that if it became too problematic he might disallow it. Really hoping for that.

There are also ideas of nerfing raking with some variant of stat-acc. I am also hoping for that to come out sooner rather than later but I'm still worried that rakers might be able to find one sweet spot bpm that they naturally rake at without actually having to control much (compare this to how high of a bpm you could ""stream"" while double tapping as fast as you can with little practice) and abuse that, but perhaps that isn't possible due to the mechanics of rake tapping. Another concern I have is that players could get good enough at controlling the speed of their flow aim to acc streams while raking.

I am not saying that raking clearly violates any currently rules - I don't think it does, but I do think that it SHOULD. Raked scores on speed maps are uninteresting and indeed I would agree that they aren't really in the spirit of the game.

I don't think this is comparable to tetris, tetris doesn't value the rhythm of inputs, you simply need to input as many of the right inputs in a short enough time frame, whether you do that with 10 inputs in a second each perfectly spaced by 0.1 seconds, or with 8 in the first half of the second and 2 in the latter half.

Are we REALLY going to try and talk against this just because nobody likes the idea of somebody being able to stay in rhythm while moving all of their fingers across the keys? Is that really what we're going to argue against?

Look, I get it if it's visually unappealing. I don't think GH (or CH for Clone Hero, at this point) players who might ave to hold their hands awkwardly on the strum bar to hit 25NPS+ strumming sections look all that appealing either. But my point with the Tetris comparison was that hypertapping and rolling evolved out of a need to match the speeds players were facing. Obviously they're not playing some Tetris-rhythm hybrid where how they input matters a lot if not more than the speed of the inputs themselves but that's kinda irrelevant here. Nobody except the OP has argued that rake-tapping is in any way a violation of the rules (and they've done so rather poorly, btw), nor that my understanding of rake-tapping is wrong, so it kinda really only involves the aesthetics and whether it'll be so mainstream that you can't even crack the high level without being able to do so. The former, at the level of play or mapping where it actually applies, is still laughable to think about up until players CAN be highly accurate with it. As for the latter, telling players to not use a currently-niche playstyle that let's them be effective on those maps basically because "I don't like it" is a dumb standard to work on and I at least will categorically and emphatically oppose anyone and anything that opposes rake tapping by that metric.

Incidentally, if players can actually keep good acc while playing with rake-tapping, that's getting more into being rhythmic than spamming double-tapping to "stream" at that kind of high bpm, given that to do so you'd have to have some pretty damn good hand coordination to not screw yourself over. So it's incredibly ironic how hard you're crying about it being un-rhythmic when it's most ideal form could actually be pretty close to it.

tl;dr literally stop crying and being jealous about it.

Voidedosu wrote:

Are we REALLY going to try and talk against this just because nobody likes the idea of somebody being able to stay in rhythm while moving all of their fingers across the keys? Is that really what we're going to argue against?

Look, I get it if it's visually unappealing. I don't think GH (or CH for Clone Hero, at this point) players who might ave to hold their hands awkwardly on the strum bar to hit 25NPS+ strumming sections look all that appealing either. But my point with the Tetris comparison was that hypertapping and rolling evolved out of a need to match the speeds players were facing. Obviously they're not playing some Tetris-rhythm hybrid where how they input matters a lot if not more than the speed of the inputs themselves but that's kinda irrelevant here. Nobody except the OP has argued that rake-tapping is in any way a violation of the rules (and they've done so rather poorly, btw), nor that my understanding of rake-tapping is wrong, so it kinda really only involves the aesthetics and whether it'll be so mainstream that you can't even crack the high level without being able to do so. The former, at the level of play or mapping where it actually applies, is still laughable to think about up until players CAN be highly accurate with it. As for the latter, telling players to not use a currently-niche playstyle that let's them be effective on those maps basically because "I don't like it" is a dumb standard to work on and I at least will categorically and emphatically oppose anyone and anything that opposes rake tapping by that metric.

Incidentally, if players can actually keep good acc while playing with rake-tapping, that's getting more into being rhythmic than spamming double-tapping to "stream" at that kind of high bpm, given that to do so you'd have to have some pretty damn good hand coordination to not screw yourself over. So it's incredibly ironic how hard you're crying about it being un-rhythmic when it's most ideal form could actually be pretty close to it.

tl;dr literally stop crying and being jealous about it.

Please don't characterize my dislike of raking as jealous crying.

Raking isn't healthy for the game for a similar reason that double tapping isn't, although it is a much more extreme example. That reason is that raking "skill" is only loosely correlated with most other skills in the game, and the skill floor is very high. I can rake 500+ bpm with almost 0 practice. I believe I probably could go rake 10 things I hate about ai no sukima DT for 700 pp if I so desired. I might be wrong but even if I am there are other people lower than my rank (and who are not notable as derankers etc,) who have done just that. That shouldn't be allowed.

If the pp team can devise some system that effectively deals with it, I'd mind it much less and it wouldn't be nearly as problematic. It would still be unpleasant to see leaderboards on speed maps potentially filled with raked scores, but lazer scoring could also fix that, I don't know.

Naiad wrote:

Please don't characterize my dislike of raking as jealous crying.

Raking isn't healthy for the game for a similar reason that double tapping isn't, although it is a much more extreme example. That reason is that raking "skill" is only loosely correlated with most other skills in the game, and the skill floor is very high. I can rake 500+ bpm with almost 0 practice. I believe I probably could go rake 10 things I hate about ai no sukima DT for 700 pp if I so desired. I might be wrong but even if I am there are other people lower than my rank (and who are not notable as derankers etc,) who have done just that. That shouldn't be allowed.

If the pp team can devise some system that effectively deals with it, I'd mind it much less and it wouldn't be nearly as problematic. It would still be unpleasant to see leaderboards on speed maps potentially filled with raked scores, but lazer scoring could also fix that, I don't know.

That's mainly at the OP, not you.

Then players need to start telling or showing mappers they won't play maps that will potentially reach the threshold where rake-tapping is either viable or the only way to get decent acc or FC/SS the map. A playstyle having a high skill floor for general play (that is, not even caring about acc and only that it allows for a FC) is not something I would expressly worry about, at least. It just looks to me that we're trying to stifle a playstyle that will actually make certain maps actually possible just because on lower-diff maps it can sometimes (well, more than sometimes; between sometimes and often) be more effective than the standard way, which still sounds utterly ludicrous as an excuse.

Furthermore, so what if someone can get 700pp on 10 things I hate about ai no Sukima dt with it? If I did the same thing but managed to use four fingers to tap two keys, is that also something that shouldn't be allowed? Or three fingers? All five on one hand? Why are we trying to force players to only stick to just two fingers? What purpose does that serve?

Let them fiddle with it. Let them figure out how to actually make it viable and rhythmically possible because I'm positive it can be. They've found a way to essentially improve how to play this game that doesn't fall far from what should be expected (because again we're only judging its rhythmic possibility based on what I imagine are methods that haven't been refined that much (not that they haven't, just not to that extent)), and we shouldn't be stopping them.

As a final point, I recall seeing clips from Chuki the Wolf from a player that was dt passing maps that were over 10* I think by just vibrating his fingers across the keys IIRC; something along those lines which sounds similar to rake-tapping as I imagine it. Is the fact he was able to pass those maps with that method now wrong, too, just because he's not playing the "proper" (two-finger) way? I would hope not. And if you agree with that, then imo you don't have an argument against rake-tapping. Leave it alone until it actually starts veering into violating the rules.

Voidedosu wrote:

Are we REALLY going to try and talk against this just because nobody likes the idea of somebody being able to stay in rhythm while moving all of their fingers across the keys? Is that really what we're going to argue against?

Look, I get it if it's visually unappealing. I don't think GH (or CH for Clone Hero, at this point) players who might ave to hold their hands awkwardly on the strum bar to hit 25NPS+ strumming sections look all that appealing either. But my point with the Tetris comparison was that hypertapping and rolling evolved out of a need to match the speeds players were facing. Obviously they're not playing some Tetris-rhythm hybrid where how they input matters a lot if not more than the speed of the inputs themselves but that's kinda irrelevant here. Nobody except the OP has argued that rake-tapping is in any way a violation of the rules (and they've done so rather poorly, btw), nor that my understanding of rake-tapping is wrong, so it kinda really only involves the aesthetics and whether it'll be so mainstream that you can't even crack the high level without being able to do so. The former, at the level of play or mapping where it actually applies, is still laughable to think about up until players CAN be highly accurate with it. As for the latter, telling players to not use a currently-niche playstyle that let's them be effective on those maps basically because "I don't like it" is a dumb standard to work on and I at least will categorically and emphatically oppose anyone and anything that opposes rake tapping by that metric.

Incidentally, if players can actually keep good acc while playing with rake-tapping, that's getting more into being rhythmic than spamming double-tapping to "stream" at that kind of high bpm, given that to do so you'd have to have some pretty damn good hand coordination to not screw yourself over. So it's incredibly ironic how hard you're crying about it being un-rhythmic when it's most ideal form could actually be pretty close to it.

tl;dr literally stop crying and being jealous about it.

Okay but people didn't like touch device and that's the only problem with that so why does that not apply here. Why not have a separate system that punishes rake tapping. I may have had flawed logic in my original post but that doesn't mean that my point is not partially valid. Calling this jealousy is absolutely uncalled for, my main reason for the heavy dislike of raking is that the highest star FC should be held by someone who can actually play the game and not someone who goes against everything the game stands for, things like this will alienate the game.

I tested myself on the osu! speed test for 10 seconds, and the maximum I can do for singletap is 140 bpm, alt is 160, rake tapping is 200 and double tapping is 260. I would be curious to see some of your stats. Also, I don't think that rake tapping should be banned, because I think it's a cool way to pass maps with insanely-high bpm that would not be possible otherwise.

I saw somebody on X who broke their nails because of rake tapping

lexie wrote:

Okay but people didn't like touch device and that's the only problem with that so why does that not apply here. Why not have a separate system that punishes rake tapping. I may have had flawed logic in my original post but that doesn't mean that my point is not partially valid. Calling this jealousy is absolutely uncalled for, my main reason for the heavy dislike of raking is that the highest star FC should be held by someone who can actually play the game and not someone who goes against everything the game stands for, things like this will alienate the game.

Because there is literally no reason to make that separate system unlike with touch. Td literally trivializes jump maps (or at least makes them significantly easier). Rake tapping doesn't.

Rake tapping is also playing the game just as intended, and you speaking against it is essentially being mad somebody brought more fingers into the game than you did and is better at using them than you. You have not established (argued, yes, established, no) how it isn't playing the game while I have. You have not established how it goes against the game. I have established how it's effectively evolving how the game is played in the niche where it's practical (300+bpm streams). You are basically trying to artificially limit how players can/should play the game just because you don't like it as if the only way we're supposed to hit 300+bpm streams of any kind is by training two fingers in stamina and precsion to be able to move .2mm at 300bpm and use wooting or other keyboards with actuations of about .2-.3mm--which is certainly POSSIBLE but is so ridiculous and unlikely to happen at least this decade that it's just silly. Meanwhile, rake tapping is easier to do, less straining in practice and applicaton, and can still be played with rhythmic intent once people have practiced it enough. What's more alienating, hm?

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

I tested myself on the osu! speed test for 10 seconds, and the maximum I can do for singletap is 140 bpm, alt is 160, rake tapping is 200 and double tapping is 260. I would be curious to see some of your stats. Also, I don't think that rake tapping should be banned, because I think it's a cool way to pass maps with insanely-high bpm that would not be possible otherwise.

That's what I'm saying.

I AM VERY SMART wrote:

I saw somebody on X who broke their nails because of rake tapping

...How long were their nails in the first place...?

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

Okay but people didn't like touch device and that's the only problem with that so why does that not apply here. Why not have a separate system that punishes rake tapping. I may have had flawed logic in my original post but that doesn't mean that my point is not partially valid. Calling this jealousy is absolutely uncalled for, my main reason for the heavy dislike of raking is that the highest star FC should be held by someone who can actually play the game and not someone who goes against everything the game stands for, things like this will alienate the game.

Because there is literally no reason to make that separate system unlike with touch. Td literally trivializes jump maps (or at least makes them significantly easier). Rake tapping doesn't.

Rake tapping is also playing the game just as intended, and you speaking against it is essentially being mad somebody brought more fingers into the game than you did and is better at using them than you. You have not established (argued, yes, established, no) how it isn't playing the game while I have. You have not established how it goes against the game. I have established how it's effectively evolving how the game is played in the niche where it's practical (300+bpm streams). You are basically trying to artificially limit how players can/should play the game just because you don't like it as if the only way we're supposed to hit 300+bpm streams of any kind is by training two fingers in stamina and precsion to be able to move .2mm at 300bpm and use wooting or other keyboards with actuations of about .2-.3mm--which is certainly POSSIBLE but is so ridiculous and unlikely to happen at least this decade that it's just silly. Meanwhile, rake tapping is easier to do, less straining in practice and applicaton, and can still be played with rhythmic intent once people have practiced it enough. What's more alienating, hm?

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

I tested myself on the osu! speed test for 10 seconds, and the maximum I can do for singletap is 140 bpm, alt is 160, rake tapping is 200 and double tapping is 260. I would be curious to see some of your stats. Also, I don't think that rake tapping should be banned, because I think it's a cool way to pass maps with insanely-high bpm that would not be possible otherwise.

That's what I'm saying.

I AM VERY SMART wrote:

I saw somebody on X who broke their nails because of rake tapping

...How long were their nails in the first place...?

The fact you think rake tapping does not trivialize stream maps is where your entire argument falls apart, the only reason you see a difference between this and touch device is because there aren’t many maps that can utilize rake tapping, it’s niche, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t make certain maps significantly easier. The game is clearly not designed to use more than 2 fingers and that’s made abundantly clear by the fact that you can’t even overlap mouse and keyboard inputs, it’s intended for 2 fingers but that’s not even the main reason I take issue with rake tapping, the amount of fingers is irrelevant to my initial argument.

edit: only 200? amateur

lexie wrote:

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

Okay but people didn't like touch device and that's the only problem with that so why does that not apply here. Why not have a separate system that punishes rake tapping. I may have had flawed logic in my original post but that doesn't mean that my point is not partially valid. Calling this jealousy is absolutely uncalled for, my main reason for the heavy dislike of raking is that the highest star FC should be held by someone who can actually play the game and not someone who goes against everything the game stands for, things like this will alienate the game.

Because there is literally no reason to make that separate system unlike with touch. Td literally trivializes jump maps (or at least makes them significantly easier). Rake tapping doesn't.

Rake tapping is also playing the game just as intended, and you speaking against it is essentially being mad somebody brought more fingers into the game than you did and is better at using them than you. You have not established (argued, yes, established, no) how it isn't playing the game while I have. You have not established how it goes against the game. I have established how it's effectively evolving how the game is played in the niche where it's practical (300+bpm streams). You are basically trying to artificially limit how players can/should play the game just because you don't like it as if the only way we're supposed to hit 300+bpm streams of any kind is by training two fingers in stamina and precsion to be able to move .2mm at 300bpm and use wooting or other keyboards with actuations of about .2-.3mm--which is certainly POSSIBLE but is so ridiculous and unlikely to happen at least this decade that it's just silly. Meanwhile, rake tapping is easier to do, less straining in practice and applicaton, and can still be played with rhythmic intent once people have practiced it enough. What's more alienating, hm?

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

I tested myself on the osu! speed test for 10 seconds, and the maximum I can do for singletap is 140 bpm, alt is 160, rake tapping is 200 and double tapping is 260. I would be curious to see some of your stats. Also, I don't think that rake tapping should be banned, because I think it's a cool way to pass maps with insanely-high bpm that would not be possible otherwise.

That's what I'm saying.

I AM VERY SMART wrote:

I saw somebody on X who broke their nails because of rake tapping

...How long were their nails in the first place...?

The fact you think rake tapping does not trivialize stream maps is where your entire argument falls apart, the only reason you see a difference between this and touch device is because there aren’t many maps that can utilize rake tapping, it’s niche, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t make certain maps significantly easier. The game is clearly not designed to use more than 2 fingers and that’s made abundantly clear by the fact that you can’t even overlap mouse and keyboard inputs, it’s intended for 2 fingers but that’s not even the main reason I take issue with rake tapping, the amount of fingers is irrelevant to my initial argument.

edit: only 200? amateur

The whole point of rake tapping is to make streaming high bpm maps easier, or even possible, and I don't see that as a downside, but more like a new way to play the game. As long as you are not using cheats and are following the rules, there is no one "right way" to play osu!. Also, I can use mouse and keyboard inputs at the same time (the game allows up to 4 different inputs simultaneously), and I tried the other test, and I can "stream" 20 notes at an absurd 650 bpm just by double tapping 5 times on my keyboard and my mouse at the same time. If I could use that in-game, I would, but there's no way I can actually stream like this, and also aim.

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

lexie wrote:

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

Okay but people didn't like touch device and that's the only problem with that so why does that not apply here. Why not have a separate system that punishes rake tapping. I may have had flawed logic in my original post but that doesn't mean that my point is not partially valid. Calling this jealousy is absolutely uncalled for, my main reason for the heavy dislike of raking is that the highest star FC should be held by someone who can actually play the game and not someone who goes against everything the game stands for, things like this will alienate the game.

Because there is literally no reason to make that separate system unlike with touch. Td literally trivializes jump maps (or at least makes them significantly easier). Rake tapping doesn't.

Rake tapping is also playing the game just as intended, and you speaking against it is essentially being mad somebody brought more fingers into the game than you did and is better at using them than you. You have not established (argued, yes, established, no) how it isn't playing the game while I have. You have not established how it goes against the game. I have established how it's effectively evolving how the game is played in the niche where it's practical (300+bpm streams). You are basically trying to artificially limit how players can/should play the game just because you don't like it as if the only way we're supposed to hit 300+bpm streams of any kind is by training two fingers in stamina and precsion to be able to move .2mm at 300bpm and use wooting or other keyboards with actuations of about .2-.3mm--which is certainly POSSIBLE but is so ridiculous and unlikely to happen at least this decade that it's just silly. Meanwhile, rake tapping is easier to do, less straining in practice and applicaton, and can still be played with rhythmic intent once people have practiced it enough. What's more alienating, hm?

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

I tested myself on the osu! speed test for 10 seconds, and the maximum I can do for singletap is 140 bpm, alt is 160, rake tapping is 200 and double tapping is 260. I would be curious to see some of your stats. Also, I don't think that rake tapping should be banned, because I think it's a cool way to pass maps with insanely-high bpm that would not be possible otherwise.

That's what I'm saying.

I AM VERY SMART wrote:

I saw somebody on X who broke their nails because of rake tapping

...How long were their nails in the first place...?

The fact you think rake tapping does not trivialize stream maps is where your entire argument falls apart, the only reason you see a difference between this and touch device is because there aren’t many maps that can utilize rake tapping, it’s niche, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t make certain maps significantly easier. The game is clearly not designed to use more than 2 fingers and that’s made abundantly clear by the fact that you can’t even overlap mouse and keyboard inputs, it’s intended for 2 fingers but that’s not even the main reason I take issue with rake tapping, the amount of fingers is irrelevant to my initial argument.

edit: only 200? amateur

The whole point of rake tapping is to make streaming high bpm maps easier, or even possible, and I don't see that as a downside, but more like a new way to play the game. As long as you are not using cheats and are following the rules, there is no one "right way" to play osu!. Also, I can use mouse and keyboard inputs at the same time (the game allows up to 4 different inputs simultaneously), and I tried the other test, and I can "stream" 20 notes at an absurd 650 bpm just by double tapping 5 times on my keyboard and my mouse at the same time. If I could use that in-game, I would, but there's no way I can actually stream like this, and also aim.

I’d like to reiterate that by this logic, touch device is perfectly fine and shouldn’t have had to change. Rake tapping trivializes high bpm at the cost of accuracy and consistency the same way touch device does it for aim, the two are so similar and yet for some reason they nerfed touch device into the ground, I wonder why.

It's as if touch device trivializes how much aim is required in jump maps while rake tapping doesn't trivialize the fact You're still trying to combo 300+bpm fucking streams. The number of maps where it helps is irrelevant.

"But what about full screen 1/8--"

No. Using one finger on each hand to rapid-tap opposite ends of the screen is trivializing specifically because it outright eliminates the need to aim at each circle with a mouse or tablet; that's why it needed to be nerfed to the ground. Learning how to synchronize multiple fingers on just one hand to be able to keep up with what the map demands a la rake tapping is not. You still have to aim, you still have to combo, and you still have to be on time, but rake tapping makes the last two easier to do. That's not trivializing. It would be trivializing if it removed the need to do any one of those three things, and especially if it removed two or all three. Nobody has proven that it removes those things because it can't.

"But muh speed--"

Is the whole reason rake tapping exists. Again, YOU are enforcing that the only way to improve on streaming at high bpm is to getting rapid triggers at .2-3mm actuation and that players train to consistently meet that actuation on both press and un-press because that extreme is where things will need to head if we stick to just two-finger play. And to be fair, even with rake tapping we'll probably still have to if someone tries to pull out, like, 400+bpm streams, but until then rake tapping makes it easier in a good and healthy way.

Oh, also, you can alternate mouse/keyboard inputs, which is essentially what you do in rake tapping, too. You shouldn't be overlapping in the first place, regardless of what method you use, so that's a stupid argument.

edit: Also, again, once people have time to refine the technique, it will be played with rhythm and proper accuracy. And once players have reason to believe it will help, then they'll be incentivized to refine it. So long as idiots like you aren't trying to be stupid in calling it bad when it isn't, anyways. It's like someone showing you a way to turn plastic into useful and eco-friendly products, but you shoo them away purely because it isn't efficient (yet) and you want your way to be on top. No shit it's not efficient yet because it's still basically in the proof-of-concept phase where the best that's been achieved is showing it's possible.

to me it's just one in a sea of silly cheese strategies people have come up with over the years to make some very specific types of gameplay easier. even assuming it's gamebreaking and such -- which is apparently debatable -- it's hard to feel like it has any real impact on the ecosystem at this microscopic niche scale

clayton wrote:

to me it's just one in a sea of silly cheese strategies people have come up with over the years to make some very specific types of gameplay easier. even assuming it's gamebreaking and such -- which is apparently debatable -- it's hard to feel like it has any real impact on the ecosystem at this microscopic niche scale

The problem is more that is has the potential to, given the right maps and circumstances, the 13 star FC is quite substantial in my opinion, I wonder at what point people will start thinking it’s a problem.

Edit: if what you said is true voided, high BPM should be nerfed into the ground to account for how much easier it is with this new tapping method, you still have to aim with touch device too, it’s just much much easier actually. I don’t know what else I can tell you, you clearly won’t change your mind, I think rake tapping abuses flawed game mechanics and people will only realize that if a 600BPM stream map gets ranked and someone FCs for 4000pp or something, but until then it’s just a non-issue and a cool new trick we should all learn. Oh also try rake tapping without rapid trigger, it’s not fun.

lexie wrote:

clayton wrote:

to me it's just one in a sea of silly cheese strategies people have come up with over the years to make some very specific types of gameplay easier. even assuming it's gamebreaking and such -- which is apparently debatable -- it's hard to feel like it has any real impact on the ecosystem at this microscopic niche scale

The problem is more that is has the potential to, given the right maps and circumstances, the 13 star FC is quite substantial in my opinion, I wonder at what point people will start thinking it’s a problem.

Edit: if what you said is true voided, high BPM should be nerfed into the ground to account for how much easier it is with this new tapping method, you still have to aim with touch device too, it’s just much much easier actually. I don’t know what else I can tell you, you clearly won’t change your mind, I think rake tapping abuses flawed game mechanics and people will only realize that if a 600BPM stream map gets ranked and someone FCs for 4000pp or something, but until then it’s just a non-issue and a cool new trick we should all learn. Oh also try rake tapping without rapid trigger, it’s not fun.

What the actual fuck are you expecting people who aren't rake tapping to do if someone actually gets a 600bpm stream map ranked?

Literally.

Tell me EXACTLY what the fuck they're supposed to do. Because using rake-tapping is exactly what they should do.

You're not hating on the right part, which is people thinkng it's okay to map 400bpm+ maps in the first place. That's what begets techniques like rake-tapping. Stop hating on how people try to adapt.

lexie wrote:

clayton wrote:

to me it's just one in a sea of silly cheese strategies people have come up with over the years to make some very specific types of gameplay easier. even assuming it's gamebreaking and such -- which is apparently debatable -- it's hard to feel like it has any real impact on the ecosystem at this microscopic niche scale

The problem is more that is has the potential to, given the right maps and circumstances, the 13 star FC is quite substantial in my opinion, I wonder at what point people will start thinking it’s a problem.

Edit: if what you said is true voided, high BPM should be nerfed into the ground to account for how much easier it is with this new tapping method, you still have to aim with touch device too, it’s just much much easier actually. I don’t know what else I can tell you, you clearly won’t change your mind, I think rake tapping abuses flawed game mechanics and people will only realize that if a 600BPM stream map gets ranked and someone FCs for 4000pp or something, but until then it’s just a non-issue and a cool new trick we should all learn. Oh also try rake tapping without rapid trigger, it’s not fun.

I don't think rake tapping allows for a decent accuracy on streams, so I don't get why we are nerfing it.

It doesn't yet because it hasn't been refined to a point that it can, and Mr. Brightside over here is apparently afraid of that.

I think you can get your argument across just fine without this hostile tone

clayton wrote:

I think you can get your argument across just fine without this hostile tone

I did, and apparently even explaining it nicely isn't really getting the point across. Which yes, doesn't really justify being hostile but goddamn the amount of stretching that's being done to call rake tapping bad or something that shouldn't be allowed is ridiculous and at some level seems like a ludicrous fear that has no real basis.

(Which is not to say I'm trying to keep being hostile here, just pointing out that the poor arguments are starting to make me lose my temper.)

lexie wrote:

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

lexie wrote:

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

Okay but people didn't like touch device and that's the only problem with that so why does that not apply here. Why not have a separate system that punishes rake tapping. I may have had flawed logic in my original post but that doesn't mean that my point is not partially valid. Calling this jealousy is absolutely uncalled for, my main reason for the heavy dislike of raking is that the highest star FC should be held by someone who can actually play the game and not someone who goes against everything the game stands for, things like this will alienate the game.

Because there is literally no reason to make that separate system unlike with touch. Td literally trivializes jump maps (or at least makes them significantly easier). Rake tapping doesn't.

Rake tapping is also playing the game just as intended, and you speaking against it is essentially being mad somebody brought more fingers into the game than you did and is better at using them than you. You have not established (argued, yes, established, no) how it isn't playing the game while I have. You have not established how it goes against the game. I have established how it's effectively evolving how the game is played in the niche where it's practical (300+bpm streams). You are basically trying to artificially limit how players can/should play the game just because you don't like it as if the only way we're supposed to hit 300+bpm streams of any kind is by training two fingers in stamina and precsion to be able to move .2mm at 300bpm and use wooting or other keyboards with actuations of about .2-.3mm--which is certainly POSSIBLE but is so ridiculous and unlikely to happen at least this decade that it's just silly. Meanwhile, rake tapping is easier to do, less straining in practice and applicaton, and can still be played with rhythmic intent once people have practiced it enough. What's more alienating, hm?

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

I tested myself on the osu! speed test for 10 seconds, and the maximum I can do for singletap is 140 bpm, alt is 160, rake tapping is 200 and double tapping is 260. I would be curious to see some of your stats. Also, I don't think that rake tapping should be banned, because I think it's a cool way to pass maps with insanely-high bpm that would not be possible otherwise.

That's what I'm saying.

I AM VERY SMART wrote:

I saw somebody on X who broke their nails because of rake tapping

...How long were their nails in the first place...?

The fact you think rake tapping does not trivialize stream maps is where your entire argument falls apart, the only reason you see a difference between this and touch device is because there aren’t many maps that can utilize rake tapping, it’s niche, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t make certain maps significantly easier. The game is clearly not designed to use more than 2 fingers and that’s made abundantly clear by the fact that you can’t even overlap mouse and keyboard inputs, it’s intended for 2 fingers but that’s not even the main reason I take issue with rake tapping, the amount of fingers is irrelevant to my initial argument.

edit: only 200? amateur

The whole point of rake tapping is to make streaming high bpm maps easier, or even possible, and I don't see that as a downside, but more like a new way to play the game. As long as you are not using cheats and are following the rules, there is no one "right way" to play osu!. Also, I can use mouse and keyboard inputs at the same time (the game allows up to 4 different inputs simultaneously), and I tried the other test, and I can "stream" 20 notes at an absurd 650 bpm just by double tapping 5 times on my keyboard and my mouse at the same time. If I could use that in-game, I would, but there's no way I can actually stream like this, and also aim.

I’d like to reiterate that by this logic, touch device is perfectly fine and shouldn’t have had to change. Rake tapping trivializes high bpm at the cost of accuracy and consistency the same way touch device does it for aim, the two are so similar and yet for some reason they nerfed touch device into the ground, I wonder why.

I have played osu!stream, but I haven't played osu! with touch device before, so I do not know just how much of an aim advantage it would give you. But I am willing to try to download lazer on my phone or the ipad just to try it out, so I would know how it would affect my aim. But by the same logic, tapping with keyboard should be nerfed because it is much easier than playing with mouse only, which was how the game was originally meant to be played. But that nerf didn't happen, because the majority of players use keyboard, so making that change would anger the majority of the playerbase. So I am thinking that the popularity of a playstyle also plays a part in whether or not people think it's fair, and whether or not it would be nerfed. And since rake tapping is such a new and niche playstyle, with some advantages over contentional streaming, the players who don't use it might think it's unfair because it could potentially let them get better results without putting in the amount of time and effort it would take for them to get there (if it is even possible) using more-traditional streaming methods.

there are nerfs to rake tapping waiting to give it the TD treatment so there's no need to be upset

Laskerf wrote:

there are nerfs to rake tapping waiting to give it the TD treatment so there's no need to be upset

Wait what, there is? How do you know that?

Laskerf wrote:

there are nerfs to rake tapping waiting to give it the TD treatment so there's no need to be upset

There shouldn't be, but w/e.

SupaSazyCassidy wrote:

Wait what, there is? How do you know that?

There is a pp developers discord, and I'm not sure what they're waiting for but it's been ready for a while. Basically if your acc is too trash (compared to the OD) on a super high star map that implies high level of proficiency with the game, the pp of your score will be hit a massive amount because you're cheesing the play.
I guess they wanna deploy it together with the accuracy rebalance in general (that buffs od11 95% acc fcs and such), or peppy is blocking all reworks for other reasons.

nothing is really confirmed on that front until things are approved for merging into the game. a proposal exists for this sure but misleading to say "waiting" as if it's ready and definitely going to happen

This addresses the pp issue sure but I wish there could be done about the trivialization of high star rating FCs and passes.

I feel like that part is more just up to you to choose if it matters to you... there's nothing baked into the game that legitimizes high-SR FCs/passes (well besides medals I suppose but the audience for those is small and rake tapping isn't generally the preferred strategy anyway)

lexie wrote:

This addresses the pp issue sure but I wish there could be done about the trivialization of high star rating FCs and passes.

Which I will still point out you haven't really argued competently. If someone want to learn how to play with more than just two fingers and learns to pass/FC maps that way, let them be. If someone decides to use this as a means of making speed-streaming easier without learning how to vibrate two fingers together, why are we punishing them?

Voidedosu wrote:

lexie wrote:

This addresses the pp issue sure but I wish there could be done about the trivialization of high star rating FCs and passes.

Which I will still point out you haven't really argued competently. If someone want to learn how to play with more than just two fingers and learns to pass/FC maps that way, let them be. If someone decides to use this as a means of making speed-streaming easier without learning how to vibrate two fingers together, why are we punishing them?

I don't care what you think, I just wanted to bring attention to it, if it gets fixed like it supposedly is now, then I don't care anymore