by current Rain RC, hyper-droplets on rains are technically fine as long as its basic-snapped:

Rain Rule

Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used within a slider.

and

Rain Guideline

Hyperdashes should not be used on individual drops and/or slider repetitions.

(https://prnt.sc/ZIHSF007aEAt)

example map:
beatmapsets/1972973#fruits/4094060
162bpm 1/2 hyperdashes are basic-snapped in rains 01:13:161 (1) - 01:25:012 (1) -
(not relevant but this whole diff in itself definetely is a higher-end "rain")
(after 2 years of being a bn finally i saw usage of basic-snapped hyper-droplets in rain [this map] so it led me to finally push this forward, the mechanic in itself shouldn't be in a rain regardless of how simple imo, it really just doesnt fit)

might be my biased view, but I personally believe hyper-droplets shouldn't even be a thing ever in rains; as they're supposed to be more or less low-overdoses even more "generic" but of course a bit more intricate/difficult than Platters allowing for a proper learning curve, Rain diffs are meant to ease relatively "new" players into the higher-end difficulties of the game, adding hyperdrops on them prematurely introduce higher level skills before the "basics" are properly grasped, hyper-droplets are a overdose+/deluge pattern/mechanic regardless of how simple the usage of it is. this is something that has been bothering me for a long time already but never really bothered making a proposal for until now.

suggest it should be changed by renaming the current guideline to:

Hyperdashes should not be used on individual slider repetitions

and adding new rule:

Hyperdashes must not be used on individual drops

further rewording/fine-tuning is welcome

I agree with this.

I disagree with this. It removes a point of expression that can be used in rains. I think if hyper droplets are used in a basic manner there is no issue.

hey i wonder what that map is

anyway there's no Issue with the current guideline imo (and its not cuz that's my map) but rather change it because if it's used **sparingly** (KEYWORD!!! KEYWORD ATTENTION) then it can be fun and interesting to play rather than completely disallowing it. it should be fine with introducing hyper droplets in rains if its done properly AND considerably readable (like what that map is ((Not Because That Is My Map))

disagree with proposal even map in example is fine

agree

agree

rains are already beyond hard for what they are supposed to be with mappers making them dense and snappy like an overdose. If you build the set around it then maybe it can work. But in 98% of cases thats not happening. Most players, from what i have heard, stop around platter because they cannot get over the jump in difficulty.

Im under the assumption that people forget how it is/was to be challenged by lower diffs. The purpose of lower diffs are for players to learn step by step how the game works and then to be eventually prepared for overdoses where anything is possible.

Also this is not about stopping creative expression. This change is for the player for which difficulty levels were designed for in the first place.

I agree w/ this

I agree with the proposal

I personally think hyperdroplets better be introduced starting from overdose. The gap in difficulty between Platter and Rain is already wide enough, where Rain diffs are meant to ease relatively "new" players into the higher-end difficulties of the game , putting the mechanics such as hyperdroplets will make it even more difficult, and the thing is the Overdose diff itself (4.5 - 6 ⭐) doesn't even have hyperdroplets most of the time.

I changed my mind! as long as basic-snapped & not in conjunction with antiflow I think it's fine, not too hard and plays like the usual basic-snapped hyperdash

I agree imo it's a problem for the new players.

wwwww wrote:

I disagree with this. It removes a point of expression that can be used in rains. I think if hyper droplets are used in a basic manner there is no issue.

Du5t wrote:

agree

rains are already beyond hard for what they are supposed to be with mappers making them dense and snappy like an overdose. If you build the set around it then maybe it can work. But in 98% of cases thats not happening. Most players, from what i have heard, stop around platter because they cannot get over the jump in difficulty.

Im under the assumption that people forget how it is/was to be challenged by lower diffs. The purpose of lower diffs are for players to learn step by step how the game works and then to be eventually prepared for overdoses where anything is possible.

Also this is not about stopping creative expression. This change is for the player for which reason difficulty levels are even designed for in the first place.

as du5t said the gap between platter -> rain already is too big and also something I noticed regarding most newer players quitting around Platter/Rain.

it's hard to draw a line between what is a rain and what is a overdose, especially when looking at recent maps (one can easily be passed as another) - allowing this game mechanic/pattern on rains just helps make this thin line even more unclear
thats why in itself as a mechanic shouldnt be able to be used in rains regardless of how simple the usage is
mostly thinking about newer players and to also help have a more proper distinction between difficulties (even if small)

M0RU wrote:

disagree with proposal even map in example is fine

wouldnt say its fine, to further prove what I just said the map in question on the example has been brought up as having multiple questionable patterns for a rain by both bns bning it/marked on planner beatmapsets/1972973/discussion/4206012/timeline#/3821336 beatmapsets/1972973/discussion/4206012/timeline#/3846672 + another bn and a nat *previously discussed on bn server
+ on top of that the hyperdroplets usage in itself disregarding the questionability of the whole mechanic usage in itself is clearly overdone/overemphasized when compared to what the song structure offers beatmapsets/1972973/discussion/4206012/timeline#/3924621

Agree (with fayew's take)

Asked by zerokt for opinions

I lean toward agreeing with the proposal
because
- the gap between platter->rain is larger than it should be in this case. Drops in the default skin are not even that obvious when they are in a hyperdash: they are much smaller than fruits. For rain players, reading these hyperdashes can be overwhelming. Let alone there will be additional droplets along the way, making rain players to get SS harder.
- i highly doubt that it's that necessary to express the song in that way in a rain difficulty. If ppl really think that expression is the key for the map, they'd better aim for an overdose. The example posted isn't really expressing the song properly imo

Basically how I look at this:

I do agree since platter to rain is somewhat different (more dashes and hdashes) and allowing droplet hdash in rain would make newer players suffer way more since they only start out. So basically hdash droplets should only start at odoses.

I disagree

Main counter-arguments

Using any hypers on droplets let you create somewhat technical vibes. Since it's equivalent to osu!'s insanes, where they sometimes do even more nuts stuff, I think we should let some unconventional patterns be present. It doesn't mean it must be used, but let's mappers have a choice.

I also think, big droplets have almost no difference from normal fruits. They count into combo, misses and trigger hypers. I could just do the same or even crazier stuff without slider usage and it could still be ass to play for this player base. (I undestand that it's a little more nerfed than normal fruits, so that small droplets aren't in every pattern. Ranking Criteria limits you just perfectly imo.)

It could be other issues than just droplets, that make you concerned about rain difficulty:
1) There are almost no restrictions about dash usage. You could make a consecutive 62ms wiggle dashes (240bpm 1/4) and it doesn't break even a single guideline.
2) Rain allows for 4 consecutive lower-snapped hypers, which is a big gap from platter. (Lower-snapped hypers have different ms from platter.)
3) "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes [...]" is easily abused. You can just make double 1/4s left-right that initially have walks between hypers, but everyone would rather just hold dash since it's easier.
4) "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped should not be followed by antiflow dashes with a gap lower than 250ms." is a guideline that could also make the difficulty too hard. I think antiflow dashes after higher-snapped hdashes are too hard to manage, and just having an antiflow walk can make a player anxious enough to use dash because how snappy it can be.

So maybe it would be better to take care of other points if you want to make rains easier.

A little off-topic

As it was mentioned that players leave around platter/rain level - I think it's maybe because platters are too comfy?

Cups = they are just to teach the player move.
Salads = kinda same as cups, but just sometimes have some dashes.
Platters = more common with dashes, but hypers are used sparingly.
This spread feels a little wrong with me.

Lower diffs spread could be buffed to achieve easier progression.
Dash is something that could be used (sparingly) from beginning in cups in an extremely easy/lenient way (like e.g. 400ms+), so that players actually can see that there is such a keybind. Also would additionally let some more creativity/emphasis be added to those diffs, as they all feel quite dull and some mappers even just do them brainlessly.
Salads are somewhat balanced, but to keep it with the idea above, they could consist of 250ms+ hypers.
Platters tend to be flowy. Hdash/dash restrictions are somewhat fine (could be balanced/buffed if what I said above would work out).

Although it's nothing said about walks in the Ranking Criteria. That could change a lot on how mappers make lower difficulties spread. For examples: cups can have only transition changes if at least 125ms is between the transitions (with some definitive restrictions), same with platters but at least 62ms. That would introduce more catcher control and harder movement to newer players, while as well making it more clear for new mappers how to avoid doing unbalanced patterns.

TL;DR

Droplets aren't a problem in rains. There are more concerns that can be pointed out in Ranking Criteria regarding difficulty.

It keeps being said that rains are for players who are still “learning” and I don’t really see how hyper droplets have a steep learning curve.

hello dear mappers and modders of this thread; i am going to give you an interactive. let's imagine a situation

you're a rain player who fc'ed their idk-th rain. you've been playing them consistently and have been hitting all patterns with an ease. then you decide to go for an overdose and.. BOOM! you see hyperdrops in big amounts. you dont know how to deal with them. what do you do? you don't know what to do because you WERE NOT introduced to them. rain is a perfect difficulty level to introduce more gimmicks/tech stuff that can be applied in the future

now let me say this ONCE AGAIN: there is LITERALLY nothing wrong with letting those hyperdrops be in a rain. i've already stated my opinion: i both agree and disagree with this proposal. i agree that we need an elaborate rule regarding hyperdrops and disagree with totally restricting mappers from using them. use these sparingly and rarely. no one is going to be hurt

also i've read some of the arguments here for the disallowance of hyperdrops and I don't rly recall someone who is of that level to be able to judge the So-Called-Gap-Between-Platters-And-Rains Trademark properly... pls do ur research guys i believe we can become a better gamemode if we stop thinking about "oh but we need some comfortable diffs..." as if we already didn't rank enough ""Comfortable"" content

disagree

rain players already have some level of mastery in hypers (given that platters are supposed to be the introductory diffs), so i don't see anything wrong with having hyperdroplets at that level sometimes, especially since they're used more often than ever even in lower overdoses nowadays

i'd say it's better to leave the judgement of whether the mapper has gone too far with hyperdroplets to the bn rather than to disallow them completely

Heavy disagree.

Fundamentally hyper-droplets are used to introduce more complexity to patterns, and I don't think they're used enough to be honest with you (from the perspective of a 2k), gameplay wise they're hit likewise to regular hyper-dashes, with little gameplay difference other then often being surrounded by small droplets instead of full notes, if we are to assume rains are supposed to lead into overdoses, this leaves the player not knowing how to approach hyper-droplets in general.

I'd personally like to see them used more often, as if prompted I can only name a single map off the top of my head with a hyper-droplet, which is a convert, upon asking other people in my rank range about their experiences with them, I had a 3.5k unironically tell me they hadn't encountered them before.

Eliminating hyper-droplets from the early game is as functional as eliminating them from the game as a whole, as I don't see them, ever in overdoses, maybe I just farm too much, but I don't see this helping lower level players either.

I don't think something like hyper drops should be introduced in Rain diffs.

Rain diffs are where players start getting used to a lot of hyperdashes in maps.

i think hyperdrops add personality. leave them in

No, make Light Rains then

Disagree with disallow hyperdrops in Rain totally, yet I think hyperdrops in Rain should be more restricted with clearer words.

Rain players could handle single hyperdrops if the hyperdrop appeared single with reasonable forecast, and also hyperdrops may unavoidable if mapper want to do a long 1/1 hyperslider with a higher slidertick density (considering nowadays most slidertick density is 2, this will happen when BPM is a little higher)

So, I would suggest:

1. Hyperdrops are disallowed under X ms
2. Hyperdrops can only be used separately, without any connection with any kind of jump
3. Hyperdrops should only be used under circumstances of extreme emphasizes or long-hyperslider, with detailed reason stated.

Not a fan of disallow them totally :/

highly disagree

there are definitely appropriate and fitting ways to use this specific element, I'd say it would just have to depend on the song choice - you would not see this in an anime map at all which caters to 'newer' players, but this kind of technical mechanic could be/are used on more complex songs to give special emphasis and sort of challenge rain players that are good enough, so if a 'relatively new' player is playing such technical maps, then they are simply not practicing the appropriate maps in order to learn the mere basics of said difficulty.

I'd also argue that such elements used are not that hard at all. for reference, I used three (3) sliders with "hyper-drops" on my ZxNX - Schadenfreude rain (beatmapsets/1698949#fruits/3488354), yet if you look at the no mod leaderboard, it is full of fcs. if anything, i'd only suggest having a hyper-drop distance limit similar as to what's in the platter rc: "Strong hyperdashes should not be used. For basic-snapped hyperdashes, a limit of 1.5 times the trigger distance is recommended". all in all, i think it's completely fine keeping this as a guideline

ctb is already easy to learn as it is, removing such element would hardly change anything at all when it comes to the difficulty scale because at the end of the day, it all depends on the general patterns used in the difficulty. additionally, platters allow hypers on sliderheads, overdoses allow higher-snapped hyper-drops, wouldnt it be contradictory in the "learning curve" if we remove basic-snapped hyper-drops on rains when it's simple enough?

also fwiw the map u linked does not make use of the element very fittingly, i personally think this kind of technique should only be used if the sliderend/tick that it's emphasising is uniquely strong, so if that bothered u just point it out in the modding forum, dont have to generalize when it can be used properly : (

As a player:
If it's just a hyperdrops inside of horizontal sliders, I'm still fine playing it. But other than that, it definitely throws some people off and could lead to a miss (although in this case especially in high SR Rain, players at this rate should definitely master to read this kind of thing).

For me, big droplet is different than the fruit although having a similarity of breaking the combo and etc. That's more like an advanced reading technique if the path is not clear and SIMPLE enough as an "introduction" for Rain level.
It's more like being surprised to see the pattern that you are still not familiar at this level, so that's why other than horizontal sliders hyperdrops then it's just too much for me for regular Rain players.

As a mapper:
After quite some time to gather thoughts, I disagree to completely remove the hyperdrops in Rain. If we disallow the usage of hyperdrops in Rain then the gap between Rain and Overdose is significantly higher than what we currently have right now, because in Overdose you can definitely put some weird hyperdrops path imaginable. I'd rather put some limitation instead of removing it completely if we are going to that route.

The gap between Platter -> Rain isn't that high anymore with the addition of allowing hdashes followed by antiflow patterns, where it was completely not allowed in Platter before. So it does make sense why people are defending the usage of the hyperdroplets because of the difficulty progression.

For example for limitation like I said earlier, being able to use hyperdrops only in horizontal sliders without any curved thing before and after that could be a good introduction to this kind of pattern, so they know what to expect and how to play if they see one(it's just an example, we could have something better than that).

Remember that it's still treated as an introduction, so having other than hyperdrops in horizontal slider isn't an introduction anymore. You should put that in Overdose instead.
Tbh, we would see consecutive dashes in cup and hyperdashes in salad if we treated this introduction thingy.

TL:DR
Maybe put some limitation regarding hyperdrops instead of removing it completely, so the gap between Rain and Overdose isn't that high.

Tried my best to explain everything with my goofy ability.

Disagree. In my opinion it is BNs and NATs to judge whether the violation of relevant Guideline (for adopting hyperdash between drop and its next object) is too devastating to not be allowed. However, it seems there are certain limitations to avoid players overdoing such gimmick (such as setting up slider of tick rate 4 to employ higher-snapped hyperdash, or forcing an anti-flow walk after the hyper-drop).

It is unnecessary to disallow completely the use of it as it is one way to express the music if necessary (e.g. kick-sliders / tech stuff) and demonstrates creativity / variety in the array of maps.

i disagree

I think it boils down to how it's being introduced and if the usage is done tastefully. sure its possible for hyper-drops to be way too overdone, but manual judgement as of now is still fine. disallowing hyper-drops entirely for rains will hinder emphasis choices.

if a diff sucks in using it, then its either the diff's problem or a spread issue.



also hypers have a natural visual distance/spacing cue going from one structure focus to another no?

Mniam wrote:

I disagree

Main counter-arguments

Using any hypers on droplets let you create somewhat technical vibes. Since it's equivalent to osu!'s insanes, where they sometimes do even more nuts stuff, I think we should let some unconventional patterns be present. It doesn't mean it must be used, but let's mappers have a choice.

I also think, big droplets have almost no difference from normal fruits. They count into combo, misses and trigger hypers. I could just do the same or even crazier stuff without slider usage and it could still be ass to play for this player base. (I undestand that it's a little more nerfed than normal fruits, so that small droplets aren't in every pattern. Ranking Criteria limits you just perfectly imo.)

It could be other issues than just droplets, that make you concerned about rain difficulty:
1) There are almost no restrictions about dash usage. You could make a consecutive 62ms wiggle dashes (240bpm 1/4) and it doesn't break even a single guideline.
2) Rain allows for 4 consecutive lower-snapped hypers, which is a big gap from platter. (Lower-snapped hypers have different ms from platter.)
3) "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes [...]" is easily abused. You can just make double 1/4s left-right that initially have walks between hypers, but everyone would rather just hold dash since it's easier.
4) "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped should not be followed by antiflow dashes with a gap lower than 250ms." is a guideline that could also make the difficulty too hard. I think antiflow dashes after higher-snapped hdashes are too hard to manage, and just having an antiflow walk can make a player anxious enough to use dash because how snappy it can be.

So maybe it would be better to take care of other points if you want to make rains easier.

A little off-topic

As it was mentioned that players leave around platter/rain level - I think it's maybe because platters are too comfy?

Cups = they are just to teach the player move.
Salads = kinda same as cups, but just sometimes have some dashes.
Platters = more common with dashes, but hypers are used sparingly.
This spread feels a little wrong with me.

Lower diffs spread could be buffed to achieve easier progression.
Dash is something that could be used (sparingly) from beginning in cups in an extremely easy/lenient way (like e.g. 400ms+), so that players actually can see that there is such a keybind. Also would additionally let some more creativity/emphasis be added to those diffs, as they all feel quite dull and some mappers even just do them brainlessly.
Salads are somewhat balanced, but to keep it with the idea above, they could consist of 250ms+ hypers.
Platters tend to be flowy. Hdash/dash restrictions are somewhat fine (could be balanced/buffed if what I said above would work out).

Although it's nothing said about walks in the Ranking Criteria. That could change a lot on how mappers make lower difficulties spread. For examples: cups can have only transition changes if at least 125ms is between the transitions (with some definitive restrictions), same with platters but at least 62ms. That would introduce more catcher control and harder movement to newer players, while as well making it more clear for new mappers how to avoid doing unbalanced patterns.

TL;DR

Droplets aren't a problem in rains. There are more concerns that can be pointed out in Ranking Criteria regarding difficulty.

yes, i agree with you in regards to other stuff that could be done to fit into making rains easier, which includes some of what you already mentioned, but most of it i simply have a general idea but never went forward because they in the end can also more or less fit easily on what phob mentioned regarding letting it to bn's judgment, so it all needs to be properly thought out. with that aside the same could be said regarding other stuff in the rc but yeah

hyper-drops in rain and the rewording in cup (community/forums/posts/9259236) i already had in my mind since a long time ago just never went forward with it, and it's much simpler to approach it if compared too, nonetheless, more or less saying "hey u should focus other stuff instead" seems to rather disregard what's been brought up, which is not positive for further discussion of the topic

for the rest of the stuff offtopic ngl imo u are cooking too hard with the lowkey too antimeta stuff that should probably just be kept out for rc simplicity and easier approachability but go off king 🔥

Underscorebaka wrote:

Heavy disagree.

Fundamentally hyper-droplets are used to introduce more complexity to patterns, and I don't think they're used enough to be honest with you (from the perspective of a 2k), gameplay wise they're hit likewise to regular hyper-dashes, with little gameplay difference other then often being surrounded by small droplets instead of full notes, if we are to assume rains are supposed to lead into overdoses, this leaves the player not knowing how to approach hyper-droplets in general.

I'd personally like to see them used more often, as if prompted I can only name a single map off the top of my head with a hyper-droplet, which is a convert, upon asking other people in my rank range about their experiences with them, I had a 3.5k unironically tell me they hadn't encountered them before.

Eliminating hyper-droplets from the early game is as functional as eliminating them from the game as a whole, as I don't see them, ever in overdoses, maybe I just farm too much, but I don't see this helping lower level players either.

"I don't see them ever in overdoses" fair point, if you dont seem them **ever** in overdoses why would you see them in rains at all? and "Eliminating hyper-droplets from the early game is as functional as eliminating them from the game as a whole" not true, most hyperdrops have a place mostly in higher-end/level maps once fundamentals are solid, might be why you dont run into many.

as you said yourself, most overdose difficulties, which rain is not meant to mimic, do not rely heavily on hyperdroplets either, regardless of the level of difficulty (since a overdose/deluge has a multitude in range of skill level) them being reserved mostly to higher-end beatmaps.

rain sits between platter and overdose in the spread progression, its role is to provide an even more challenging version of platter basics before the full complexity of overdoses+ which contains a multitude of different skill ranged difficulties, including hyperdroplets at the rain level disrupts the natural spread order. it adds a newer game mechanic (that is used mostly in high-end difficulties) before the player have fully mastered what even is a hyperdash, and when paired with whats been said before by me + other users in the thread regarding spread/overall rain difficulty makes so that the disparity is even more clear.

Jemzuu wrote:

highly disagree

there are definitely appropriate and fitting ways to use this specific element, I'd say it would just have to depend on the song choice - you would not see this in an anime map at all which caters to 'newer' players, but this kind of technical mechanic could be/are used on more complex songs to give special emphasis and sort of challenge rain players that are good enough, so if a 'relatively new' player is playing such technical maps, then they are simply not practicing the appropriate maps in order to learn the mere basics of said difficulty.

I'd also argue that such elements used are not that hard at all. for reference, I used three (3) sliders with "hyper-drops" on my ZxNX - Schadenfreude rain (beatmapsets/1698949#fruits/3488354), yet if you look at the no mod leaderboard, it is full of fcs. if anything, i'd only suggest having a hyper-drop distance limit similar as to what's in the platter rc: "Strong hyperdashes should not be used. For basic-snapped hyperdashes, a limit of 1.5 times the trigger distance is recommended". all in all, i think it's completely fine keeping this as a guideline

ctb is already easy to learn as it is, removing such element would hardly change anything at all when it comes to the difficulty scale because at the end of the day, it all depends on the general patterns used in the difficulty. additionally, platters allow hypers on sliderheads, overdoses allow higher-snapped hyper-drops, wouldnt it be contradictory in the "learning curve" if we remove basic-snapped hyper-drops on rains when it's simple enough?

also fwiw the map u linked does not make use of the element very fittingly, i personally think this kind of technique should only be used if the sliderend/tick that it's emphasising is uniquely strong, so if that bothered u just point it out in the modding forum, dont have to generalize when it can be used properly : (

i disagree with "ctb is already easy to learn as it is" - it's only "easy" from cup to salad - as already said before, from personal experience and also almost all my personal acquaintances struggled/quit around platter/rain.

being "full of fcs" is also not a very good argument as we would simply be looking at it rather shallowly from above, disregarding who are the players who did such and their actual level. by looking quickly on the filtered nomod top 100 page it seems that most users are/were overdose-level players by the time their scores were set.

u also clearly did not read my subreply, it also already was brought up on the map and fixed beatmapsets/1972973/discussion/4206012/timeline#/3924621 due to indeed the poor usage as u said regardless of this proposal

with that aside, addressing what u said lastly, this proposal was also not based with that map in mind, it was simply the map I remembered that utilized this mechanic when I was first writing up the post, so i attached it as an example. reacting strongly in the heat of the moment (to the point of even making a whole proposal) is uncharacteristic of me, even more so if "out of spite" due to something allegedly "bothering" me, so that definetely is not part of my character. as already was said in the introductory post, its something that i had issue with for a long time already, hence why the proposal.


but anyways, while I still do not believe it belonging of a rain game mechanic, even after the counterarguments *and do not plan to nom any myself on the future either, a proper acceptable middle-ground i can come in terms with would be further limiting the usage as Hex mentioned, I might try to write something up another day when available, for now thats too much writing for me already. if someone else wants to step-up with potential stuff that would be awesome

anyways, i already expected this to be controversial but did not expect this many responses, we only got to current improved rc/guidelines because of many epic dudes of the past that also discussed certain game elements in their respective diffs extensively, thanks for all inputs guys 👍

controversy is good for the gamemode

there are numerous comfortable, safe and easy rains that cater to newer players in the ranked section already, I'm not sure why we're worried about hyper-drops on rains when it's v rarely done and if theyre ever used, they are done on more complex and technical songs that support the usage.

newer players are supposed to have enough practice in order to play these technical maps that cater to more advanced rain players that seek for challenge. in fact, there is a big scarcity when it comes to looking for such techy rains in 4 digit tournaments, rain players are tired of the dullish rains that keep getting produced.

if relatively new players quit on playing bc a hyper-drop exists on a rain, then they are simply an ape. go practice the basics and a hyper-drop will be a cakewalk. such maps are not targeted to them in the first place, so it's quite irrelavant to me how we take 'relatively newer players' as a factor here.

Yeah I might have said too much, I could have left my post on the first 2 counter arguments. Although I just felt like comparing other rc points, when I see mainly you say the difficulty is a problem, was right to do. It's good to start touching rc to change it for better at all I appreciate that. Still, it doesn't feel right to limit mappers with this one by completely removing hypers from droplets.

Ranking criteria states: "Hyperdashes that are basic-snapped must not be used more than two times within a slider."
It would be balanced if we changed it to just a single one. That way we can keep emphasis in a different way than just generic, and rain players can see a new mechanic, where droplets can trigger hypers.

There might be some reason I want to add since I am mapping a slidertick-joined map and I found slidertick has very much lower hitsound that doesn't give enough feedback. Maybe slidertick for Rain diff should be hitsound specialized though but I still want to denfend Rain slidertick.

as someone that can only play well up to Rain difficulty I don't see particular issue with hyperdrops as long as they're readable and not exceedingly difficult in context of the rest of the map (which i assume would be fixed in modding, regardless of what RC says). the fact of hyperdrops existing is not usually what makes patterns including them difficult for me to play, I think. it's nice to get an easy intro in Rain to complex patterns/styles that will occur more in Overdose and up. I mostly agree with what Jemzuu said

threw this at osu catch diffspecific for the time being. discussion in this thread kinda went :zzz: so we'll address it one way or another in there instead!