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[added] [osu!taiko] Change guideline about multicolor 1/4 quads and quints in Muzukashii

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Topic Starter
-Flashlight-
Current Ranking Criteria for Muzukashii states:

  1. 1/4 patterns which are longer than three notes should consist of one colour change at most which should take place at the start or the end of the pattern. Patterns more complex than that would be too demanding for intermediate players. These patterns should be followed by a rest moment.

Muzukashii is a low diff and it's main purpose is to introduce 1/4 for new players. Monocolored triplets are regarded as the easiest 1/4 for newer players and it's what almost every Muzukashii is using. BNs already tell mappers to simplify multicolored triplets, and even monocolored quadruplets and quintuplets are rare and BNs may tell mappers to simplify them to x xx / xx x for quadruplets and xxx x / x xxx for quintuplets.

As such, a guideline explicitly allowing the usage of quadruplets and quintuplets with colour changes, like kkkkd and dkkk, even if only at the start or the end or followed by a rest moment, goes completely against what Muzukashiis look today. These patterns are too complex and should only be left for Oni.

With that in mind, I suggest the following change:

  1. 1/4 patterns longer than three notes should not have color changes. Patterns like that would be too demanding for intermediate players.

This will better reflect what I think is the community consensus on these kind of patterns in Muzukashiis. Keeping them as guidelines means that they can still be broken, but that should be left for exceptional circumstances, like very low BPM. Current guideline suggests thats this kind of pattern is acceptable in a 180 BPM Muzukashii if followed by a rest moment, which, practically speaking, is not the case.
Nao Tomori
I think ddkk is easier, or at least comparable to dddd though. Also most blue tick emphasis phrases are more interesting than a mono allows.
Hivie

Nao Tomori wrote:

I think ddkk is easier
yea because you've played this game for years, you really underestimate how tricky color changes are for people who're starting out muzus.

i like the direction of the proposal, tho i think it'd be better to reword it in a way that states "color changes are allowed in patterns that are 3 notes or shorter, and should only contain one color change", that way we reflect our current standards better by only allowing ddk and kkd, while avoiding dkd/kdk/color changes in longer patterns
Blushing
I agree. As a newbie taiko player that struggles with Onis but can play most muzu's comfortably, seeing a jarring kkd, ddk, or even notes that are longer like kkkkd. I can say with most certainty that people being introduced to muzu's and taiko are not going to hit kkkkd/dkkkk, let alone any other color change.

Simplifying the RC to kkkkk/ddddd is going to allow for newbie players to still gain experience and knowledge of patterns as well as being able to map accordingly.

Remember these are players that came from Futsuus and muzu is an exceptional diff spike in rhythm, accuracy, and SV (if in the map).

I see no issue why this shouldn't be a guideline.
Topic Starter
-Flashlight-
Reworded to include triplets
ikin5050
original reply
I think the fact that these are already guidelines already allows them to be broken in niche scenarios.

Whilst perhaps ddk is (according to some) easier than ddd I believe the idea of mainly allowing mono-color triples is the fact that you get used to changing speed between 1/2 and 1/4, introducing alternating your fingers effectively as a skill whilst oni introduces interchanging colors (and thus using more than 2 fingers on 1/4 patterns).

basically, muzu uses 2 fingers for 1/4 and oni uses 4 is always how I've interpreted the learning curve so personally I don't see merit in this suggestion

I misunderstood the intentions initially.

My opinion is that this rewording doesn't really add anything as guideline interpretation can shift (as it has for other guidelines). IMO RC should aim to be generic and reflect BN interpretation as BNs are supposed to be an active part of the community and reflect views anyway.
aceticke

ikin5050 wrote:

original reply
I think the fact that these are already guidelines already allows them to be broken in niche scenarios.

Whilst perhaps ddk is (according to some) easier than ddd I believe the idea of mainly allowing mono-color triples is the fact that you get used to changing speed between 1/2 and 1/4, introducing alternating your fingers effectively as a skill whilst oni introduces interchanging colors (and thus using more than 2 fingers on 1/4 patterns).

basically, muzu uses 2 fingers for 1/4 and oni uses 4 is always how I've interpreted the learning curve so personally I don't see merit in this suggestion

I misunderstood the intentions initially.

My opinion is that this rewording doesn't really add anything as guideline interpretation can shift (as it has for other guidelines). IMO RC should aim to be generic and reflect BN interpretation as BNs are supposed to be an active part of the community and reflect views anyway.
I agree with this sentiment and believe that we should not adjust the RC to account for every minute direction a map can go in
Topic Starter
-Flashlight-
I've reverted my rewording so now the proposal is only about multicolored quadruplets and quintuplets again. Hopefully it will be easier to reach some consensus that way. I'll leave multicolored triplets to another proposal.
roufou
I think discouraging dkd, kdk, kdd, and dkk as a guideline is good, yeah.

Any four note pattern color change should definitely be discouraged.

I'm more fine with ddddk and kkkkd, but I can seldom think of a case where that'd be justified.

Somewhat irrelevant, but I think it sucks how there's not much of a good way to casually learn color change triplets for newer players since neither muzu's or oni's are necessarily good for teaching that when you're at that skill level... I wish this was something that could be fixed but I guess they just have to struggle at oni's generally speaking.

Just my feelings on muzu meta.
realy0_

Hivie wrote:

Nao Tomori wrote:

I think ddkk is easier
yea because you've played this game for years, you really underestimate how tricky color changes are for people who're starting out muzus.

i like the direction of the proposal, tho i think it'd be better to reword it in a way that states "color changes are allowed in patterns that are 3 notes or shorter, and should only contain one color change", that way we reflect our current standards better by only allowing ddk and kkd, while avoiding dkd/kdk/color changes in longer patterns
yes with the kkd ddk part, really think those are fine if not overused and not as a substitute of ddd kkk
Ryu Sei
Helpful for me who want to map taiko better. +1
Hivie
this was implemented a while ago, updating the thread has slipped through the cracks lol, better late than never
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