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[invalid] [Proposal - osu!catch] Add Deluge to Ranking Criteria

posted
Total Posts
16
Secre
osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team
402 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre
Hello! This is the first proposal in my set of catch proposals. Each of these proposals are independent of each other for implementation, but some wordings may be interchangeable depending on whether finalized or not.

The goal of this proposal be adding the "Deluge" category in the ranking criteria as follows:

Deluge

Guidelines:

At least 62 ms must be left between circles/sliders and the start of spinners. This is to ensure readability.

At least 125 ms must be left between circles/sliders and the end of spinners. This is to ensure readability.

Combos should not exceed 20 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.

Difficulty setting guidelines

Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 9 and 10.
HP Drain Rate should be between 6 and 7. This may be lower in cases of extremely difficult beatmaps.
Circle Size should be between 4 and 7.



Based on the above, Deluge would have no rules. This is tentative to change depending on user response.

This would also require adding Deluge in several sections of the catch RC, including:

Difficulty names
Snapping reference table (in which it would follow Overdose)

Adding Deluge to the ranking criteria will allow part 2 of my proposal to be properly worded aswell as helping support part 3 (but is not required for either, hence why this is its own standalone proposal.)

Having Deluges be officialized is well past due at this point. Everyone uses them in essentially an official manner, so why not actually officialize it?

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4
part 5
Last edited by Secre , edited 1 time in total.
-Aku
268 posts
Joined May 2018
-Aku
why not
sxy62146214
Beatmap Nominator
227 posts
Joined May 2016
sxy62146214
Sounds good and no reason to object.
The only point I find which may little awkward is that osu mapping community have using five-diff system as default for years and sixth is always not an official one...But this shouldn't be a point to stop this proposal.
Chatie
106 posts
Joined May 2015
Chatie
yeah lets do it
Mniam
221 posts
Joined February 2015
Mniam
Would still keep spinners in the rules, as these ms values made sure you can realize when the actual notes start. Also prevents from lowkey cancer maps that would just have spinner spam between notes.

Rest is fine with me.
Erowdi
158 posts
Joined April 2021
Erowdi
Yeah I agree to this
Secre
osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team
402 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre

Mniam wrote:

Would still keep spinners in the rules, as these ms values made sure you can realize when the actual notes start. Also prevents from lowkey cancer maps that would just have spinner spam between notes.

Rest is fine with me.
The hope is to also have my prior RC proposal community/forums/topics/1724334 be accepted aswell. If this is accepted, your worries probably wont be an issue. Plus you can normally just rely on BN common sense to judge that
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
As the proposal stands now, this is mostly moot. Other than the spinner gaps being moved to guidelines, there's no objective way to differentiate an Overdose from a Deluge. This would mean the following cases could happen:

- A perfectly rankable 5* Overdose, but make one spinner gap less than what's required and it would suddenly become a Deluge.
- A 9* map that breaks the guideline is certainly a Deluge. But a 9* map that doesn't break the guideline could be both classified as an Overdose and a Deluge.

I feel like something more should be added to further differentiate between an Overdose and a Deluge, other than the gut feeling of difficulty of mappers, modders and BNs/NATs.
Last edited by ZiRoX , edited 1 time in total.
GiGas
152 posts
Joined October 2015
GiGas
I agree with the fact that there should be a deluge category. The movements required in an overdose versus a deluge is a huge gap and I think a separate category would be a good idea. Zirox does bring up a valid point though about the lack of set guidelines for a deluge. I think adding things such as the following would be helpful:

  1. Various snappings up to 1/16 combined with hyperdashes can be used.
  2. Multiple Edge dashes can be used as long as there is valid reason to support its use.
  3. Generally requires fast and precise movement than overdose.
These are all I can pretty much think of as of now, but I believe we can add more to this list or even revise some of mine.

Before I end my post, I think your statement of "HP Drain Rate should be between 6 and 7. This may be lower in cases of extremely difficult beatmaps." could give extra detail and include density of notes being the determining factor for what your HP Drain Rate should be. Good proposal overall.

Last edited by GiGas , edited 1 time in total.
yeeeter
17 posts
Joined September 2019
yeeeter
I Agree with it!
Hareimu
624 posts
Joined March 2014
Hareimu
To differentiate overdoses from deluges further, I'd like to add some points to be held into account:
  1. 1/4 or higher snap stream patterns where the player is expected to perform quick turnarounds (whose inputs resemble those one would perform when playing osu!standard stream patterns), coloquially dubbed as staircases/wiggles/etc, should be used sparingly to introduce the player to these kinds of patterns in a controlled environment before using them more liberally in deluges, if nothing else (staircases comprised of more than 4-6 fruits in a row would be far too demanding of a rain player in practice)
  2. 1/8 (can vary depending on bpm) hyperchains should also be used sparingly as the density of these in comparison to what rain difficulties allow is far too high a jump to be reasonable (upwards of around 4-6 hyperchained fruits in a row would start being a bit much).
  3. Interconnected hyperslider/hyper slidertick chains where each slider's sliderend ends a tick before where it would otherwise end, should be used sparingly as the way to read these can be overbearing for the newcoming rain player who hasn't had to handle ticks with hyperdashes much if at all before.
There are several sets where the jump in difficulty between the rain difficulty and overdose difficulty is far too large mainly because of these three points, and I believe basing oneself off of them using proper judgement and common sense should be paramount to determine what is an overdose and what is a deluge.
A deluge is clearly more demanding of player execution mechanically speaking than an overdose traditionally is. Trying to deem a deluge an overdose solely based on technicalities to bypass having to be accomodating of lower end players could be a bit disingenuous, I'd imagine.

Of course the wording and technical aspects of those points can and should be altered by those more sensibly knowledgeable about said aspects, but I think for this proposal's thread's case they're understandable enough for the point to get across
Last edited by Hareimu , edited 2 times in total.
Rocma
Former osu!catch Champion: 2022
527 posts
Joined November 2010
Rocma
reduce hp guideline you want sudden death multi
Lacrima
377 posts
Joined September 2014
Lacrima
this has no point

if this goes through as of right now than the only difference between overdose and deluge would be that overdose would have guidelines, which were already reasonably broken with higher-end overdoses, that's why they are guidelines

imo some of the guidelines on the overdose should become rules and/or more rules/guidelines could be added, example of the rules being:
  1. Hyperdashes should only be used on drops and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement, as transitioning into and out of complex slider shapes with hyperdash is usually uncomfortable to play, and a major penalty to accuracy for little benefit.
  2. 1/8 and higher hyperdashes cannot be used between consecutive object pairs.
  3. Edge dashes can be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects, and should not be used after hyperdashes.
(btw second one is kinda meh since flowy 1/8s hypers are easy and i have a feeling this guideline only exists to prevent sr bloat, so it could be added to rules instead)

all of the above if forbidden in overdose would make a reasonable spread, but even then there could be overdoses which are "deluge" level of difficulty even while following these rules

so yea if making deluge a separate difficulty more rules should definitely be added for overdose
Hareimu
624 posts
Joined March 2014
Hareimu
to me its simple, if you dont have to perform eleven thousand 1/4 direction changes just to be able to pass a single section with staircases, and things like cs arent coolest levels of ant reading (and ar isnt too high with the bpm being 180 or whatever), then the diff isnt a deluge, its just an inflated overdose
Last edited by Hareimu , edited 1 time in total.
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
213 posts
Joined February 2013
Greaper
I'm against adding a Deluge as an official difficulty. I don't think it adds much value. You are getting rid of the guidelines. However, they are guidelines for a reason. So they can be broken if justified. The only added value would be for having easier writing for your drain time proposal.

Any contests that require you to map a full spread would suddenly require you to map a Deluge. Suddenly needing to have some kind of exception in every news post only for osu!catch not to map a Deluge?

Besides this, I'm not sure if the osu! team would be happy with adding a higher difficulty only for osu!catch when not adding it to the other gamemodes.
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
213 posts
Joined February 2013
Greaper
I will be archiving this as we won't be adding this for adding not much value and easier writing of the drain time proposal has been solved in a different way.
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