Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[resolved] Hybrid Nomination Overhaul

posted
Total Posts
20

opinion

++
68
51.91%
+
34
25.95%
neutral
15
11.45%
-
4
3.05%
--
3
2.29%
+ but only with changes
7
5.34%
Total votes: 131
Polling ended
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh


The resets above were for tags since someone name changed, muting one slider end, and to change taiko OD. This was a complete waste of time for everyone involved and the pinacle of how awful the system currently is.

Proposed System:

  1. For each mode in a hybrid, the first BN will mark their game mode as "Approved", while the second BN nominates the set.
  2. An approval only confirms that the difficulties within the BN's game mode are ready to be nominated.
  3. An approval is not removed if the map is updated, but will be removed if another BN pops or disqualifies it.
  4. If a map is popped/disqualified, the approving BN will not be held accountable for technical things that are not specific to their gamemode, such as metadata, timing, or file issues.
  5. If there are significant changes (remap or new difficulty), this should be communicated to the Approving BN to reconfirm.
In short, for hybrids, one BN from each mode only checks things related to their game mode (ie don't have to check metadata/timing/file stuff), while the other does a normal BN check. The game mode check is not removed if the map is updated, making the nomination process easier.

- Less nomination reset spam
- 2-4 BNs are still doing a normal full nomination check
- Less work for half of the BNs involved
- Easier to find a BN to do an approval
- Approvals can be placed before other modes are finished, making it easier to know when to start the nomination process.
- Has a big impact on improving the awful state of hybrids

This is still far stricter than the original 1 BN per mode which is what the current overbearing 2 BN rules set out to fix. This is similar to having 1.5 BNs per mode, and is what I think should have been trialed when the rules were originally changed.
Out of all community rhythm games, the current hybrid rules is the most difficult and labour intensive content approval process ever made. pls fix

edit: yeah I know approved maps are already a thing, I couldn't think of a better name
Last edited by Xinnoh , edited 3 times in total.
Usaha
Beatmap Nominator
511 posts
Joined May 2015
Usaha
seems mostly fine to me but "the approving BN will not be held accountable for technical things that are not specific to their gamemode, such as metadata, timing, or file issues." i dont get this why shouldn't they be
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh
my bad, didn't make that part super clear

4-8 different people are obligated to check metadata & timing when only 2 are needed for the same task in a normal map. For half of those BNs, it's fairly redundant/useless to do it, so they just check their gamemode, skip the rest of the process, and approve.

That said, normal maps still occasionally get metadata issues. For the BN that did the approval, they shouldn't get punished for that since it wasn't part of their role.


This part could just be changed to just ask them to do a normal check if others are of the same opinion.
Last edited by Xinnoh , edited 3 times in total.
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz
seems like a logically consistent idea so +1, only issues seem to be figuring out who the approval vs nominating bn is gonna be in practice (ie im afraid there will be confusion where NOBODY checks meta/timing etc) plus dev time
Hivie
osu!taiko Paragon
996 posts
Joined March 2019
Hivie
the approval thing is somewhat of a regression to the old system which might not be the best route to go for.

It also makes the process of hybrid nominations less streamlined and would cause tracking issues, because the approving BN won't have that nomination count in BN site.

I think it's best if a map update would only reset the concerned mode.

i.e let's say we have a 4-mode hybrid, with 2 taiko nominations and 1 standard nomination, mapper decides to change a sliderend in a standard diff, the update would only reset the standard nomination, and keep the taiko ones intact.
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh

UberFazz wrote:

seems like a logically consistent idea so +1, only issues seem to be figuring out who the approval vs nominating bn is gonna be in practice (ie im afraid there will be confusion where NOBODY checks meta/timing etc) plus dev time
dev time is actually incredibly short.
If bancho pops the set and if there are two nominations for a mode, remove the second nomination.
That's literally it. The rest of it is just RC changes and some optional UI additions. I was keeping this in mind when writing it since coding not fun.

The second BN for a mode would always nominating, so whoever clicks the button second is obligated to have checked.

Hivie wrote:

I think it's best if a map update would only reset the concerned mode.

i.e let's say we have a 4-mode hybrid, with 2 taiko nominations and 1 standard nomination, mapper decides to change a sliderend in a standard diff, the update would only reset the standard nomination, and keep the taiko ones intact.
Coding-wise that's almost impossible to do unless the mapper tells the system what changed which is not ideal (or possible given the current framework).

Plus taiko would have to recheck regardless incase something changed.
Last edited by Xinnoh , edited 1 time in total.
Nitrous
1,206 posts
Joined October 2015
Nitrous
Vouching for this. Currently the Ranking Criteria discourages hybrid sets in general. It gets worse as more modes are into play. Not to mention how unfair it can be for other mode nominators be involved in issues/vetoes of other modes.
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz

Sinnoh wrote:

The second BN for a mode would always nominating, so whoever clicks the button second is obligated to have checked.
right, i understand. this doesn't change my concern that there would be confusion between who is the one that's designated to check (prior to pressing the button) - at the very least im afraid there will be disagreement if not confusion

plus this kinda ruins the concept of friends syncing their noms but i dont think that's a big deal
[Ping]
499 posts
Joined April 2015
[Ping]

Sinnoh wrote:

Coding-wise that's almost impossible to do unless the mapper tells the system what changed which is not ideal (or possible given the current framework).
Actually if you change one diff it doesn't change the others (date modified etc) so it is theoretically possible but would still need some coding to check changes for each difficulty. This would still cause a nom pop for each modes if metadata and tags are changed, however, but imo that's a good thing in case something accidentally change in that specific mode.
Last edited by [Ping] , edited 2 times in total.
Noch Einen
530 posts
Joined July 2018
Noch Einen

Hivie wrote:

the approval thing is somewhat of a regression to the old system which might not be the best route to go for.
I sense flame icon dejavu

I think this might leads to "friend-s only nomination" (but not all the case, still most) which ofc, "would make hybrid more closed than usually" since host may not (or may) know anything about any mode to ask nom.
This is just mapper's perspective, but idk if it is just to address "to nominator only" (NAT included) (keeping the nomination intact after specific mode gets some change / such)

Would actually vouch if the change is to courage more hybrid sets to be ranked, but it is not guarantee to since every nominators are also human, who wants to or not to (also can cause overwhelmed request / drained sanity during checking maps on pending request)

For system itself, i think it's pretty good "to not waste time to keep pressing the button after different mode got change" rather than "letting the other bn do normal check & the other just press approve" (which may cause "lazy work:, though in the end, NAT will evaluate their work)
Hivie
osu!taiko Paragon
996 posts
Joined March 2019
Hivie

[Ping] wrote:

Actually if you change one diff it doesn't change the others (date modified etc) so it is theoretically possible but would still need some coding to check changes for each difficulty. This would still cause a nom pop for each modes if metadata and tags are changed, however, but imo that's a good thing in case something accidentally change in that specific mode.
Basically this, just check the mode of the modified diff and pop accordingly.

Sinnoh wrote:

Plus taiko would have to recheck regardless incase something changed.
Nope, taiko noms would be intact because no taiko diffs have been touched since the nomination, and those BNs aren't responsible for the other modes so they don't need to recheck them.

Meta updates would naturally pop all the noms because all diffs need to be updated.

Overall i'm still against the idea of "approving" BNs because of the tracking issues it will cause.
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh

Hivie wrote:

Nope, taiko noms would be intact because no taiko diffs have been touched since the nomination, and those BNs aren't responsible for the other modes so they don't need to recheck them.
Even if the taiko diffs have no change, MP3, storyboard, and files can change or be added. All modes are responsible for checking those.


UberFazz wrote:

right, i understand. this doesn't change my concern that there would be confusion between who is the one that's designated to check (prior to pressing the button) - at the very least im afraid there will be disagreement if not confusion
if it's unclear just communicate with each other? It's not much harder than confirming if another BN was ok with the set before nominating on a normal map.
Hivie
osu!taiko Paragon
996 posts
Joined March 2019
Hivie

Sinnoh wrote:

Even if the taiko diffs have no change, MP3, storyboard, and files can change or be added. All modes are responsible for checking those.
in that case make an MP3 change/osb edit/other kind of file edits that affect all the map reset all noms, my proposal saves a lot of time in the most common use case scenario, the one you're trying to fix, which is avoiding redundant nomination spam when unneeded.

Checking logic should be as follows:

- map updated
- site checks for files that were modified:
  1. if a non .osu file has been affected, reset the entire map
  2. if a .osu file has been affected, check its mode and reset accordingly
Since BSS only updates the files that were modified, and doesn't tamper with the ones untouched, I imagine this would be fairly easy to implement.
Last edited by Hivie , edited 4 times in total.
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh
While I agree that is probably the better option, it would take more time for the devs to implement compared to just a flat reset + is more rules that need writing/learning.
Keep in mind that hybrids are super uncommon, so it's a feature that will see little use. Plus, time spent coding this detracts from time spent on lazer which will impact all players.
Might be best to just let peppy decide how much of that they would want to implement.
h3oCharles
1,502 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
what about hybrid nominators? ones that can do at least 2 modes, that is
Last edited by h3oCharles , edited 1 time in total.
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh
I don't know how it works with the current system but nothing changes on that end.

is what i was going to initially say, but if said bn is the 2nd nom for both modes then that doesn't work since only one person is checking.

Fair point, small append would be if a BN is nominating multiple modes, they can't be the last nomination for all modes.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,106 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
feel like a way to specify which mode's noms are being reset would be more useful. like if you have 5/6 bubbles and some guy pops for taiko, the other 2 modes stay bubbled. and if some guy pops for timing, all 5 get popped as this would affect all modes. this doesn't really solve the "minor" issue but it would still make it less irritating to get a map through.
[[[[[[
883 posts
Joined August 2019
[[[[[[
my idea of finding the "main mode":

1. the mode where the map host mapped the most diffs will be the main mode
2. if there's two or more modes where the main mapper mapped the same amount of diffs, the main mode would be the one with more diffs from the guest mappers
3. if there's still a tie, the map host can choose what's the main mode (with agreement from other guest mapper?)
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Topic Starter
Xinnoh
there is no need to define a main mode
each mode needs to be treated as its own set regardless
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,956 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
to my knowledge, the main mode thing described in community/forums/topics/1870012?n=26 is actually happening https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/pull/10984

archiving this for the time being to use the other thread
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 20