Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[Rule Change] Manipulating slider speeds with anchors

posted
Total Posts
53
show more
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

D33d wrote:

Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.
When you talk about readability you are talking about skill, that slider which those considers unreadable is readable to me.

This whole thread is just idiotic, pretty much all popular/good maps DO manipulate slider speed with anchors/curves in one way or another, a lot of them don't really have any considerable impact on the way you play them so you don't care/notice it. Any "V" shaped slider (using an anchor) is actually having it's speed manipulated, there is kind of a slow down when you reach the bottom/top part of it and then it accelerates again, yet nobody is talking about those. Wanna guess why's that? It's because you don't have trouble understanding them and feel that they play fine, on the other hand harder to read sliders feel bad because you can not read them/understand them/get them right on the first play without relying on memory.

This whole thread is about an issue that's completely skill related.

Adding a "Free" category where you can get maps ranked without much trouble (aka no stupid rules/guidelines being a problem) + no need of proper diff spread would be awesome.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It's completely the player's fault and not the map's fault if you combo break on such a slider. All sane non-hold slider wigglies are sight-readable.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Soaprman wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.
^

Most of my maps would probably fall into that category w
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8
erm, that was what i meant. i was only drawing attention to the already existing approval category.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
So, the fact they were USED A LOT, IN AN EFFECTIVE MANNER, THAT PLAYER LIKE, do not count anything?
Disallowing things because they "generally won't work" is dumb, really, really, dumb.
Especially putting this kind of technique as "approved", since this is ... "kinda" simple to play and, especially IF ADEQUATELY used, it's good.

On sight readability... disregarding and not giving a shit to how is used:
-can't you see the slider would be "kinda" bigger?

On other way that's rankable, and was considered to be rankable in the last years... and the rules was to make sliders that "hold" unusable.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Why should we allow a map with one unrankable slider to be in a new category instead of requiring the user to change said slider?
Alarido
1,744 posts
Joined September 2012
Alarido
Is it about a single slider with different velocities along it? If yes, then it's clearly a no-no and must be avoided.

But... Some songs - specially Rock'n'Roll ones - have some spetacular Guitar noises for which sliders with a single wiggle in the START are fitting so tight. Newly, if there's no such guitar noises, these kind of sliders are a no-no.

Happily, it NOT depends on player's skill, since everyone is able to learn and do it -- unless the blind ones.

In fact, the rule would be changed in a way it forbids abuses on such things, instead of solely forbiding all and accept nothing like. In general, it would be good if rules would rely on real commonsense instead in simply forbidance as some government used do.

Such rules are complex, thence BATs are needed. If rules was simple, the system itself could implement and enforce them automatically, just like transactions from/to/between Bank accounts.
Last edited by Alarido , edited 2 times in total.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Well, they are saying that slowing sliders by making it "vibrate" is unrankable.
But "vibrato" use was arleady discussed in past as usable.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
When you make it "vibrate" to such an extreme that you cannot see the clear path of the slider border and/or it changes the speed of the slider drastically is when it is called into question.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi


I know that it's an "higher frequency" vibrato.
But the use of those kind of sliders COMPLETELY depend on the song.
It wasn't deemed as "unrankable" when we made the rule, as the rule was made to prevent hold sliders done with slideranchors and burais-like slider.
And it doesn't have problems when played, depending on the song, so you can at most change/add a guideline to prevent it.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Think bigger, Haku. Remember, clear path. Those are so compressed that you can't tell if they're going to be slow downs or not.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
That first one's dire. Even with the width, it's still pretty damn ambiguous--in fact, I just noticed that it's part of a longer slider, which makes it even more atrocious. The second one would be somewhat easy to anticipate by sight, but it'd still be better to make the wobble more pronounced.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I think it is pretty obvious that those sliders are going to slow down. The top one looks like it would bring the flow to a halt. It would throw off the rhythm because the slider starts uncompressed. The experience wouldn't be unlike a slow down. You know it's going to slow down, but you can't really judge how slow it will be until you play it. The second one is the same thing, only it's better than a regular slow down slider. You can actually tell it's going to slow down and can prepare for it. I'm not a fan of chaining regular speed sliders with slowed down sliders. That slider velocity better be decently fast or pattern 2 would play poorly.

I would prefer at least 2 forward grid 4 units per slider point.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
It depend mostly on the music, that type of slider can be funny or awful if the music do or not hint it's gonna vibrate. Like this the compression is about 10-20% ( the slider is a bit shorter than normal, but a bit more fatter than other sliders ) 2x1-3x1-2x2 grid 4 zig-zag vibrate slower (are are even more fatter). In fact, if the slider is arleady slow, the vibrato do effect the graphic, but not that much the length (in case it's used in easies, the speed change is barely noticeable, usually); differently, when used in harder difficulties it's actually noticeable, but harder difficulties player are supposed to see the slider is fattier.

It shouldn't be prohibited, it have to be controlled on a case-to-case basis by different kind of modders and still, it was considered rankable with this rule (that prohibited going back and forth on the same place to "slow" or following abnormal waypoints placement that slowed part of the slider)
I usually use it when it can be used, and since I didn't map that much lately ( university exams, I started to sing, etc ) and especially, I didn't map many songs that would accept that kind of sliders.
Alarido
1,744 posts
Joined September 2012
Alarido
I fully agree with you, HakuNoKaemi ^^ and as an addendum, imho tbh it should be under discretion of BAT team, since they are the advanced ones that are capable of decide such things.
Last edited by Alarido , edited 8 times in total.
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
FYI, regardless of the outcome of this discussion, historical maps won't be unranked.

As a mapper, there're a lot of places in the music where I've thought, "man, a squiggly slider here would be really cool and fit really well with the music."

But as a player, I've yet to see a compressed slider that was fun to play; they always make me wonder "how hard will this slider shake?" and trying to guess the "effective" slider velocity.

It only gets worst if only part of the slider is shaking, especially on the first playthrough, when I don't actually know the music at all so I can't predict when the transition happens.

Basically, I'm against it because while it looks cool and is interesting to watch, it's really annoying to play.

Also, when I think of "wiggles", I think of ones where each wiggle is distinct and visible, so you can clearly follow the slider path. These are fine.
e.g.


Compare that to the last example from Alarido, where it shakes 3-4 times in 1 "bump"; I don't think that one would be okay.
Handy420
53 posts
Joined October 2013
Handy420
hello guys......i'm feel sorry if i make a trouble on this thread or because my broken language

but in my opinion if the rythm is suit with the song...it can be tolerate but at least try to change the manipulate slider...if we found any manipulate slider again...it would be great for unrank ;)

but if we found the suspect do this again..it's nice to give a punishment for his/her account standing

that's my opinion...sorry for any mistakes
Last edited by Handy420 , edited 1 time in total.
pw384
2,287 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
leave my opinion here...

Oh well, some of these kinds of sliders may be unreadable - yes, but they will seldom occur to an experience mapper.

Also, I have a lot of top-quality maps which have the same slider patterns. Here's an example.
osu.ppy.sh/s/46733 (mapped by Charles445): this is one of the best symmetrical maps ever, so does the sliders. Some sliders' velocity is changed, however, the sliders fit the song much better (especially played with the whistle hitsounds!).

So my opinion is: It should never be a rule(becoming a guideline may make sense), but a BAT can refuse to give a bubble due to the wrong use of such sliders(if the sliders can't fit the song). I mean, the using of such sliders should be discussed on a map itself, not the whole mapping.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Current rule and exposition handles this well enough. Denying.
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
34 / 53