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[Proposal/Discussion - Timing] Clarification of the nightcore downbeat reset timing rule in RC

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Total Posts
12
elicz1
osu! Alumni
153 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
elicz1
There must not be extra uninherited timing points in any difficulty. These may accidentally affect main-menu pulsing, add unwanted sounds to the Nightcore mod, or cause timing to shift. Acceptable uses include:
  1. Aligning beats of the Nightcore mod with the start of musical sections.
This rule should be made as a guideline or removed given that it is almost redundant since barely anyone actually follows or enforces it. A quick scan of recently ranked maps highlights this:
  1. beatmapsets/1692837#osu/3459230 needs a nightcore reset on 00:00:699 and 00:08:974 among other 'start of musical sections' in the song too
  2. beatmapsets/1677237#osu/3426747 needs one here 01:08:642 (which sounds odd anyway due to the syncopation in the song)
  3. beatmapsets/1717088#osu/3508868 needs one right at the start at 00:01:385
In addition to almost no one following the rule, it also is sometimes hard to apply in some cases, which is what made me want to write this in the first place. For example in this map beatmapsets/1747427#osu/3574265 which has large sections of syncopation, in addition to BPM sway that requires timing to properly snap objects. Because of this, accommodating nightcore downbeat resets for musical sections here would cause many cymbal crashes when playing (lots of crashes 1/2 a beat apart, in addition to other ones required for timing and regular downbeat resets). This extends to almost all maps with variations in BPM.

On top of this, the wording and classification of the 'rule' here is a bit odd. It states 'Acceptable uses include:' implying that it only should be applied like a guideline, but since it is a rule, shouldn't it be applied always? This is why I propose it be clarified or removed.

TLDR; "Aligning beats of the Nightcore mod with the start of musical sections." should be made a guideline (or just removed) given that:
  1. Sometimes it is not practical to apply this
  2. It is almost never applied anyway
  3. Timing to accommodate a particular mod is pretty weird
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
This has broader visual/thematic implications for future rulesets beyond the Nightcore mod (visualizations during play and elsewhere, such as song select, main menu, etc), so it should still be followed.

Why it isn't is anyone's guess.
elicz1
osu! Alumni
153 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
elicz1
What do you propose then be done for situations where it isn't really possible to do so due to constant BPM variations in a song? Maybe something could be added to the wording to account for this as sometimes it isn't practical to apply.

I don't disagree with applying them where they can be easily put and am also not sure why this rule isn't followed by many people (maybe it's just not that known?), but sometimes it is really difficult to apply and sounds awful in gameplay. For example beatmapsets/931598/discussion/1945180 has timing almost every couple measures, and there are many other songs that require similar. I think beatmapsets/1747427#osu/3574265 is a good example to demonstrate why adding these kinds of resets is weird.

Would there be a way to reword this rule to account for these kinds of situations with BPM variations?

Also the rule to me still seems a bit redundant given that almost no one follows it, even after an unrank specifically about timing and downbeat alignment beatmapsets/1692837#osu/3459230, but I do understand why this rule exists (as you explained). Maybe something could be done to make the rule a bit more visible if it is important for other aspects of the game?
Last edited by elicz1 , edited 6 times in total.
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_
this was suggested like 9 months ago as a rc proposal lol

imo this should be a clarified and kept as a rule even if it requires some effort to do so, I can't think in any cases where actually doing this is detrimental to a map, even with songs with a lot of syncopation or a ton of uninherited timing points.
the reason why ppl don't apply this is that they are not really aware of those "minor issues" which doesn't affect anyone who plays nightcore mod.

extra note: something that is not known outside taiko is that you can omit bar line to remove those crash sounds in nightcore (option below the kiai), so for beatmapsets/931598#osu/1945180 , you can ommit some timing points to not have those extra annoying crash sounds.
Last edited by realy0_ , edited 1 time in total.
fieryrage
Former osu! Champion: 2023
1,404 posts
Joined November 2013
fieryrage
I'm pretty sure Ephemeral misunderstood the post here, which I can't really blame him because I was honestly confused at what this was trying to say myself. This isn't regarding improper downbeats (which is very much an issue).

The current criteria is just stating that extra red lines outside of downbeat resets and BPM changes should not be necessary, but you can add red lines to properly align the cymbal crashes on Nightcore (i.e. the sounds that play every 4 downbeats). I don't see a reason to remove this when all it offers is more flexibility, really -- it's not like this is being enforced. This is purely just a personal preference thing for mappers.
Last edited by fieryrage , edited 2 times in total.
elicz1
osu! Alumni
153 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
elicz1
Should it not be a guideline then?
Last edited by elicz1 , edited 2 times in total.
yaspo
osu! Alumni
265 posts
Joined September 2014
yaspo
What I'm reading in this rule is
"Do not add extra timing points, as they might misalign the beats in Nightcore mod"
it's not saying
"You must align beats with the Nightcore mod"; it's only an "acceptable use" and therefore completely optional (not enforced!(!!))

oh woops i basically said what fieryrage said.

I do agree with this rule being changed to a guideline since it has an exception written into it, but it doesn't mean what I think you think it means.
Zelq
osu! Alumni
201 posts
Joined September 2016
Zelq
I think it's fine as it is with it being used as a rule with extra line of acceptable uses; makes it way easier to read than if it was splitted between the parts.

I guess it would be cool to add the warning in the acceptable uses where it's not working (like multiple bpm shifts, syncopating, irregular song division) so that it's not being enforced, just recommended if it's possible.

From the examples you have given @elicz1, it's impossible to enforce proper Nightcore finishes on the linked mapsets.

Nothing wrong to ask though, the rule is indeed not clear enough. Hopefully we could help with clarifying it better.
Last edited by Zelq , edited 2 times in total.
elicz1
osu! Alumni
153 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
elicz1
Okay, yeah that makes sense to me. Sorry for my confusion and thanks @yaspo @fieryrage for that. Hopefully this can be made more clear.
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_

Zelq wrote:

I guess it would be cool to add the warning in the acceptable uses where it's not working (like multiple bpm shifts, syncopating, irregular song division) so that it's not being enforced, just recommended if it's possible.

From the examples you have given @elicz1, it's impossible to enforce proper Nightcore finishes on the linked mapsets.
don't think adding a warning is necessary, they can already be dealt by ommiting barlines if necessary as i said above
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz
i don't actually see any problems with the current wording, does anyone have any suggestions?

on another note, this thread has become kinda messy cuz the original post is totally disconnected from what we're discussing now. thinking of just archiving and if someone wants to make a different proposal they can
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/7433

not sure it really applies to what this thread is aiming for, but this change makes it clearer that the bullet points under this rule are exceptions
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