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[added] [Proposal] Capping millisecond window between notes

posted
Total Posts
16
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo
Based on the double-tap patterns in Tag underground - POSSESSION, developers have suggested a minimum window between active inputs to keep gameplay sane.

This suggested window is 20ms as a technical limitation with the following reasons as justification:
  1. At a minimum baseline of 60fps, 20ms remains a bit larger than a single frame (~16.7ms)
  2. The timing window for OD10 is +-19.5ms, which 20ms falls right outside of
This is extremely lenient, other double-tap maps like Burnt Rice happen to comply by this. In terms of exact snapping this corresponds to 1/16 at 187bpm, 1/12 at 250bpm and so on.

While this is all based on standard maps, it'd be valid to apply this to all gamemodes universally. Something like the following:

proposal wrote:

No two inputs can be less than 20 milliseconds apart. osu!mania and osu!catch difficulties are exempt from this.
Last edited by yaspo , edited 1 time in total.
moonpoint
311 posts
Joined January 2017
moonpoint
sounds OK if necessary, which is why i would be interested in hearing the "why" side of things from the osu! staff

would clarify that the input should be active, since the release of a sliderend is an input and that shouldn't be ambiguous (i don't believe there should be any problems with <20ms intervals between a sliderend and a circle)

proposal wrote:

No two active inputs can be less than 20 milliseconds apart. osu!mania difficulties are exempt from this.
what about catch? i feel like since this is massively a tap-related problem, catch difficulties should also be exempt
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo
woops i just copied the existing 2b stuff and didn't think about catching fruit being a thing, gonna edit
the "why" I got is that it's pretty much is just a sanity thing
as far as I'm aware it only refers to active inputs but can double check if we should include slider-ends as well
pewdekz
330 posts
Joined January 2015
pewdekz
Making the doubletaps in my map further away from eachother (13ms to 20ms) will make accing them much harder. I want the player experience to be you hit the two notes at the exact same time, and making them further apart will cause problems and take the player away from this experience. This change will also force me to lower the od of my map just for the doubletap section, and it will make mods that increase OD very hard to acc with. I feel like this is just a terrible solution to fixing a problem that the pp system shouldn't have. Just imagine if I had tried to rank this before the rework in November, it would have made it through qualified and there would've be 0 problems. I really hope you guys can reconsider this proposal as I don't think it will work out for my beatmap at all :( . thanks
Moecho
267 posts
Joined October 2014
Moecho
the concept of map in question is pretty good, i like the usage of double tap there

i feel like this seems to be something that should be adjusted to the pp calculation system rather than ranking system? i'm not sure if it affects any other area negatively than just the pp so far
Purplegaze
113 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze
Sounds like an exclusively negative change at the moment that would certainly make gameplay worse. As pewdekz pointed out, such gameplay is usually made with the intent of making the player doubletap, and forcing a 20ms minimum would make the rhythms much harder to acc.

Fixing up the pp/SR system to account for them sounds like quite the easy task the next time a rework hits, so I'd very much like to hear the reasoning behind this developer opinion, because "keeping gameplay sane" is certainly not what such a limitation would do.
YelloJello
205 posts
Joined November 2016
YelloJello
Seems strange to me that the priority is making changes to the ranking criteria to Band-Aid fix flaws in the pp system rather than resolving the issue with the pp system itself. I personally don’t see why factors extraneous to the content within the editor should affect whether a map is rankable or not.
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo
Well, any system or game having certain technical limitations should make enough sense imo. This is probably even more true for the stable client, as (I think) it doesn't record inputs independent from framerate like lazer does. Hence the 60fps argument.

How the game functions unfortunately might have to go above any intent you have for your maps. Heck, these doubles try to emulate a mechanic that would otherwise be broken (2B) by approximating it, who is really putting in band-aid solutions here?

Though aside from pp/star rating I also wish I knew what is the cause for concern in regards to smaller windows between notes. Alas I am only the messenger of a messenger. I'm praying ppy shows up in this thread at some point, he has been pinged but apparently there's still ongoing discussion despite this suggestion having been relayed!
Purplegaze
113 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze

yaspo wrote:

Well, any system or game having certain technical limitations should make enough sense imo. This is probably even more true for the stable client, as (I think) it doesn't record inputs independent from framerate like lazer does. Hence the 60fps argument.
I don't see how having two objects 0.5 vs 1.5 frames apart would change that, though, as they'd be played the same way?

Such a rule will not stop maps from being ranked with doubletap gameplay, so even if some technical limitation exists in regards to actual input, players will obviously continue to make the same inputs regardless of if the notes are 20ms apart or 13, just with a result of slightly worse accuracy. Therefore the rule still exclusively does harm.

The map in question seems to play perfectly fine to me and the good accuracy feedback makes it a lot more satisfying to hit in its current state, I'd really like to hear what exactly the issue is.
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo

purpleglaze wrote:

I don't see how having two objects 0.5 vs 1.5 frames apart would change that
my hypothesis is that it's like "there is a frame to click each circle on" vs "there isn't a frame to click each circle on"
just educated guesses though

also this doesn't exist to stop double-tap gameplay, that was (at least from my pov) not the intent of it
Purplegaze
113 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze
Fair enough.

I tried testing that guess then, and I can't reproduce anything of the sort in the stable client though.

Made an example map with 296 doubletaps in the center of the screen (8ms apart) and played it on Unlimited, Power Saving, and Optimal framerate settings and in all three runs the game did not miss a single input.
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo
then i have no idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
let's wait - regardless of anyone's stance we need dev input on why the 20ms was suggested in the first place
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

yaspo wrote:

let's wait - regardless of anyone's stance we need dev input on why the 20ms was suggested in the first place
not dev but from what i've read, 20ms was chosen for the reasons mentioned in the opening post and "being less will cause score discrepancies". that said, even if it's mostly seen as a pp issue now, this change would probably need to be added anyway

not really sure what else can be said about this, but because this change needs to happen *eventually*, here's https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/7433
pewdekz
330 posts
Joined January 2015
pewdekz
There is literally 0 proof of any score discrepancies and when my beatmap was qualified the scoring looked absolutely fine. Like I said in my reply above, a higher distance in MS between the two circles will make playing my map worse for players and will ruin the experience of my map. I don't want my map to be ruined because of this change so please can we reconsider this??
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
more lenient version has been merged
see the github discussion for detailssssssssss
pewdekz
330 posts
Joined January 2015
pewdekz
thanks guys :D
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