For a while, people have shared their concerns regarding hybrid BN activity being too lax (especially within osu!taiko). So, in light of the recent post by Noffy regarding other BN activity stuff, would like to discuss a possible proposal for changing Hybrid BN activity. The main reasoning for a change like this would be to avoid what we currently have, which is activity so low (3 noms/month with at least 1 in each mode) that it's almost impossible for a hybrid BN to be removed for activity.

IMO, taking on a BN title for an extra mode should be equal to taking double the responsibility, which would mean minimum activity requirements would be set to 3/month/mode (18 per 90 days for 2 mode bns). To me, this would solve all the issues and also have the added benefit of these hybrid users actually acting as role models in their respective communities.

However, a few other NAT's seemed concerned with these numbers being too high, and proposed we go for 2/month/mode (12 per 90 days for 2 mode bns).

Discuss!

noffy edit: go vote on the poll as well please: https://bn.mappersguild.com/discussionvote?id=61fb42977ef6d637296e1163

fully agree with this, 3 noms/month/mode sounds completely fair, especially when considering that right now, you can do 1 nom/month on one of the modes that a hybrid BN is proficient in.
Just like radar said, taking on 2 roles of responsibility should make you equally accountable for both.

In addition, 3 noms/month is already pretty easy to achieve and I think most BNs would agree with me on this, so reducing the requirement to 2/month/mode seems unnecessary.

Whatever activity requirements, if that's so could we also double the days counted to get the x-year BN badge as well as the supporters got since it is regarded as a benefit right now



personally would say 2 mods/month a proper threshold because i think this rule should encourage people to raise their activities rather than scare them off and prevent people from joining the BNs.

1 nom/month is way way WAAAAAAY too lenient compared to 3/month for non-hybrids and hybrid bns should know what they're getting into, so fully support this.
imo it should be 3/month for both modes as Hivie said, it's not difficult at all to hit 3 noms/month.

In case a 3-mode or even a 4-mode BN ever happens it's just going to put way too much strain on the BN if the 3/month/mode is put into place. Think the current system where 3/month + >1 per mode is good enough because it ensures the BN has similar amount of workload as other BNs and being a multi-mode BN shouldn't mean they take on double the workload as other BNs tbh (it's voluntary workload keep in mind)

Also this would just demotivate people to go for multi-mode BN and make the current multi-mode BNs quit one of their mode a.k.a. causing loss of BNs

@cynply you claim they shouldnt take double workload because its voluntary but i'd argue that when you apply to be bn for your second mode you know exactly what this workload is and are volunteering to do it. there's cases where people are getting by with 1 nom per month because they focus their activity on the other mode and at that moment whats the point.

fully support

nah thats a lot. 6 icons per month seems quite time consuming for smth thats voluntary. either keep current system or if its an alarming issue, make it a minimum of 2 per mode.

not much to say that hasnt already been brought up tbh, agree with increasing the requirements

~ sign up for 2+ roles then you fulfill each of what those roles ask (being 3 noms per month here)
a reduction might work given 6+ noms a month might be hard for some (or as cynply said 3-4 mode bns if it happens)
but once again if you sign up for it you know what youre getting into with what people ask of you :p

~ its open to abuse - hybrid bns can stay active in one mode while doing the bare minimum for other modes and still avoiding a removal for activity

agree with gungachad, if people are continuously getting by at the minimum just warn/kick imo

Cynplytholowazy wrote:

In case a 3-mode or even a 4-mode BN ever happens it's just going to put way too much strain on the BN if the 3/month/mode is put into place. Think the current system where 3/month + >1 per mode is good enough because it ensures the BN has similar amount of workload as other BNs and being a multi-mode BN shouldn't mean they take on double the workload as other BNs tbh (it's voluntary workload keep in mind)

Also this would just demotivate people to go for multi-mode BN and make the current multi-mode BNs quit one of their mode a.k.a. causing loss of BNs

abuse of hybrid activity reqs has happened before and still does, hybrid bns should absolutely know that they shouldn't be taking on more than a single mode unless they're willing to actually put the time needed to contribute actively to both modes.

1 per month with at least 1 map per mode means that a bn can nominate a single map of a mode every 2 months and just afk the other 2 months, and the same goes for the other mode. I would say that just shows they have no willpower to actively contribute and instead just wants lowered activity requirements

Idealism wrote:

Cynplytholowazy wrote:

In case a 3-mode or even a 4-mode BN ever happens it's just going to put way too much strain on the BN if the 3/month/mode is put into place. Think the current system where 3/month + >1 per mode is good enough because it ensures the BN has similar amount of workload as other BNs and being a multi-mode BN shouldn't mean they take on double the workload as other BNs tbh (it's voluntary workload keep in mind)

Also this would just demotivate people to go for multi-mode BN and make the current multi-mode BNs quit one of their mode a.k.a. causing loss of BNs

abuse of hybrid activity reqs has happened before and still does, hybrid bns should absolutely know that they shouldn't be taking on more than a single mode unless they're willing to actually put the time needed to contribute actively to both modes.

1 per month with at least 1 map per mode means that a bn can nominate a single map of a mode every 2 months and just afk the other 2 months, and the same goes for the other mode. I would say that just shows they have no willpower to actively contribute and instead just wants lowered activity requirements

It's still a must for the 9/90-days and 3/90-days minimum per mode, so they just can't nominate a single map of a mode every 2 months and just afk the other 2 months, since they would still need 3 for 1 mode and thus 6 for the other mode

@cynply it is still open to abuse where 1 mode gets grossly neglected

While I agree multimode nominators are in for more responsability, I don't agree with doubling the workload for theml, imo it positively discourages going for multimode.

Something like the base 3 nominations/month + 1 nomination/month for each additional mode, with at least 1 nomination per mode/month would be a fair compromise, imo.

Edit to add examples:

Example: osu! + osu!taiko BN
Minimum = 3 (base) + 1 (additional mode) = 4 nominations/month, with at least 1 per mode/month.

Cynplytholowazy wrote:

Idealism wrote:

Cynplytholowazy wrote:

In case a 3-mode or even a 4-mode BN ever happens it's just going to put way too much strain on the BN if the 3/month/mode is put into place. Think the current system where 3/month + >1 per mode is good enough because it ensures the BN has similar amount of workload as other BNs and being a multi-mode BN shouldn't mean they take on double the workload as other BNs tbh (it's voluntary workload keep in mind)

Also this would just demotivate people to go for multi-mode BN and make the current multi-mode BNs quit one of their mode a.k.a. causing loss of BNs

abuse of hybrid activity reqs has happened before and still does, hybrid bns should absolutely know that they shouldn't be taking on more than a single mode unless they're willing to actually put the time needed to contribute actively to both modes.

1 per month with at least 1 map per mode means that a bn can nominate a single map of a mode every 2 months and just afk the other 2 months, and the same goes for the other mode. I would say that just shows they have no willpower to actively contribute and instead just wants lowered activity requirements

It's still a must for the 9/90-days and 3/90-days minimum per mode, so they just can't nominate a single map of a mode every 2 months and just afk the other 2 months, since they would still need 3 for 1 mode and thus 6 for the other mode

misread the thing oops mb

even still, as ikin said, it's still quite open for abuse due to being able to neglect a mode you're supposed to be actively contributing for, which just isn't fair given the general bng expectations.

1 nom per mode + 3 noms in total per month may be too lax, while 3 nom per mode per month may be too harsh at the same time

Think what we need is a median: maybe 2 per mode per months? Or a formula thats more lenient than 3 per mode month (like 5 per mode every 2 months, dont think the evaluation period has to be sticked to 1 month)

What I don't see is a valid argument being raised why double bn shouldnt have double the responsibility (or triple for 3 mode etc.) especially because they know what they are signing up for in terms of expectation and workload. You are double mode bn, not double mode soft-bn or something. You have the same powers and responsibilities why should different metrics be set for monitoring that>?

I think 2 per mode per month would be more fair. It would help avoid one mode being extremely neglected, while not being insanely higher than what the average BN is doing. I think raising the bar too high for hybrid BNs would just make it too hard for them to exist, when being a hybrid BN should be the same as a regular BN - with more capability.

I wholeheartedly disagree, I think having double the activity requirements unnecessarily dissuades people from joining as hybrid bns (which is already not incentivized in the slightest). I would agree that generally, 3 nominations a month for extended periods is too low, but this isn't a hybrid issue. I propose instead a 3 per month minimum as well as a bi-annual 24 nomination minimum (= 4 per month) which should stem the issue of extended inactivity not technically being too low but also not punish people for taking on more initiative and joining other modes.

2 seems fine

requiring 6 would make people just quit one mode all together tbh IF they even decided to go for bn in another mode at that point

Is it genuine contribution when you nominate 1 map per month though? Like yes if you didnt nom that someone else would have to check but it doesn't really obey the "mod regularly" expectation of bn.

It is clear the minimum requirement is not the standard to strive for but merely assurance that people are actually using their role to benefit the game instead of half assing this commitment. If doing the bare minimum per month dissuades people from becoming hybrid bn then maybe they're not really as passionate about it as they seem (or at least shouldn't be volunteering to do more work than their schedule allows).

I think having hybrid nominators keep 2 nominations a month per mode would work perfectly, if 3 is the minimum I don't see 4 dissuading people from becoming hybrid BNs.

Either way, anyone that is planning to become a BN for more than 3 modes or more should fully prepare themselves for the responsibility such a thing entails, even if it means tackling upwards of 6~8 nominations a month.

The requirement will not affect any one of you, who stick to the usual 3~5 nominations; if 6~8 nominations a month dissuade you from becoming THE quintessential hybrid BN then you are simply not cut for the job, and I don't see why you'd want to be.

Other than that, I'd 100% vouch for a system where BNs stick to varying levels of activity according to their workload, in my opinion, something like:

1-Mode BN: 3/month (one mode)
2-Mode BN: 4/month (2 per mode)
3-Mode BN: 5/month (at least 1 per mode)
4-Mode BN: 6/month (same as above)

Anyone who has the determination to become the quintessential BN should be more than capable of handling 6 nominations per mode, especially considering the wide variety of song choices AND map styles between each mode.

6 nominations per month, or one nomination every 5 days, is reasonable activity for any mode, and I would support raising the minimum activity for single-mode bns to that level, let alone for someone who is a nominator for two modes.


If you aren't able to be reasonably active, then why try to add another mode to your workload? Why not just quit being bn for one mode and move to the other? Adding one mode to be practically inactive in the other is simply unfair for the people contributing to that mode, and alienates you from the bng in that mode, which isn't good for morale.

There's no harm in not providing incentives (and conversely, putting up challenges) for hybrid bns because nobody gains anything from hybrid bns existing except the bns themselves; if anything, I would assume those aspiring to be hybrid bns are open to the challenge because they enjoy nominating maps.

I would much rather people become hybrid bns because they love the game and want to contribute more to it (which is what the activity requirement is in line with) than become hybrid because they feel obligated to do so, or for selfish reasons (which we obviously don't want to encourage, and is what the current rules align with). I see no reason for there to be any lenience because nobody really loses anything if hybrid bns stop being hybrids (other than, I guess, the mode they quit being hybrid for, which obviously wasn't receiving much from them if 3 noms per month is too much for them to handle).

It is and has been an issue for hybrid bns to abuse the lowered activity requirements due to their hybrid status. Since being a hybrid bn is, for all the reasons I can think of, a luxury, I see no harm in making sure other members of the bng are not offended by activity abuse taking place. After all, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

personally i'd make 2noms per mode, having 3 is kinda harsh for nominators - people are different and some of them can be burnt out quickly imo (depends tho)

Made a vote for gathering votes from anyone interested to compare later. Will add it to OP too.

https://bn.mappersguild.com/discussionvote?id=61fb42977ef6d637296e1163

personally I thought of being hybrid bn as getting permission to nominate more variety of maps from different modes than being a dedicated bn for each of those modes

idm just generally increasing activity requirement if needed, but find it unfair that ppl have to expect more workload just cause they can/are allowed to check multiple modes.

and being able to mod maps from different modes doesn't really decrease workload on its own imo, and activity warning for hybrid didn't happen just cuz there're handful of hybrid bns + activity warning itself is quite rare thing unless one is just expecting to be kicked

Riana wrote:

idm just generally increasing activity requirement if needed, but find it unfair that ppl have to expect more workload just cause they can/are allowed to check multiple modes.

But you see, that's where things don't add up, people should expect more workload if they choose to apply for more than one role, it only makes sense. It's not even about being fair or not, it's about being mindful about the decision you've taken, there shouldn't be any morality to it, it's more so the ethic itself.

Axer wrote:

Riana wrote:

idm just generally increasing activity requirement if needed, but find it unfair that ppl have to expect more workload just cause they can/are allowed to check multiple modes.

But you see, that's where things don't add up, people should expect more workload if they choose to apply for more than one role, it only makes sense. It's not even about being fair or not, it's about being mindful about the decision you've taken, there shouldn't be any morality to it, it's more so the ethic itself.

I'm saying that being hybrid bn wasn't the decision to have multiple roles (which would come with more workload) in the first place, but about having more freedom on what to nominate as a single role (just as a "bn"). that's why I said "unfair" to impose more requirement on it when hybrid bn is still just one role

but yea ig it's just what I thought of it, and that's not what it is supposed to be seeing ppl's opinions on it

I'm not interested in rehashing all the arguments against activity requirements (BNG is voluntary, only beneficial, blah blah) nor for them. But it doesn't really make sense to impose stricter requirements on hybrid BNs because they are more capable or willing to apply themselves than people who stick to one mode. Again, disincentives to something that only has benefits don't make sense. Like I get that you guys made this entire thread instead of just PMing neonat to tell him to get off his ass but the logic here is ridiculous - someone wants to volunteer a bit more of their time to the game, so now we should force them to a double as high standard as everyone else? They will just leave and the beneficiaries are not mappers but just active BNs' egos because that is the only thing legitimately harmed by low activity BNs existing.

Activity requirements don't even fulfill the goal of making sure BNs don't just stay in to circlejerk as-is because activity doesn't exclude B4Bs. If you want to raise activity requirements they should be raised across the board, and if the reason for raising them is to make sure that B4B-heavy BNs actually contribute to the greater community rather than only circlejerking, B4B specifically should be disincentivized, not becoming a hybrid BN.

Nao Tomori wrote:

But it doesn't really make sense to impose stricter requirements on hybrid BNs because they are more capable or willing to apply themselves than people who stick to one mode.

Nao Tomori wrote:

Like I get that you guys made this entire thread instead of just PMing neonat to tell him to get off his ass

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This isn't necessary.

Nao Tomori wrote:

Activity requirements don't even fulfill the goal of making sure BNs don't just stay in to circlejerk as-is because activity doesn't exclude B4Bs.

there are 2 hybrid bns in the taiko community so this conversation is not for a big group of people and can easily feel directed towards a certain agenda (in total there are 3 hybrid bns out of over 100 bns across all the modes)

eiri- wrote:

there are 2 hybrid bns in the taiko community so this conversation is not for a big group of people and can easily feel directed towards a certain agenda (in total there are 3 hybrid bns out of over 100 bns across all the modes)

Not many people here are hybrids BNs nor plan to be, but we still need to voice our concerns regarding the current dynamic for hybrid BNs. Of course, you can argue that this conversation is not for a big group of people to make, but it ain't for a small group of 3 people either.

Being a BN is a privilege, and you maintain that privilege with responsibility. If you want to argue that the word of Hybrids BNs weighs more here then we can also agree that as a Hybrid you have more privilege than a single-mode BN does, in which case, wouldn't it make sense for you to carry forth even more responsibility?

Either way, you are in the higher echelon, it's not wrong for you to have slightly higher requirements, since sticking to them only proves to others your versatility, thus justifying your elevated position.

The changes I suggested above are extremely friendly towards activity requirements, if you're aiming for 2 modes or higher there's no way that the arrival is harder than the venture itself.

Wholeheartedly agree with this, activity should be met for both modes so one doesn't get completely neglected.

I'm fine with either 2 or 3 noms per mode per month as a minimum (though I'd lean towards 3 personally, or 3+2), imo it really isn't too much to ask for to be somewhat actively contributing when you're applying yourself to this role.

If we go by 5 maps combined (say, 3 standard and 2 taiko nominations), that's an average of 1.25 maps per week, something that can easily be done even with a life as busy as only having 1-2 days off per week.

That for me begs the question though: should a nomination count twice, if you check two respective modes of a hybrid set? I'm not really informed on whether or not this is already the case, please fill me in on that.

If you feel that my responses are inflammatory, that is because I'm trying to cut straight to the core issues and ignoring all the bullshit semantics and window dressing, especially the neonat thing. For reference, there's 3 hybrid BNs, and I happen to know eiri and Riana are pretty active, so... Sorry if my bluntness feels like I'm trying to shut down discussion - I am not, I just want to discuss the actual matters at hand, not some tangential thing that just so happens to address the main concern.

Re: low activity being a drag on morale - I agree, I just don't think it's a hybrid specific issue. Which is why I proposed a more flexible but higher basic activity requirement to allow for people who have busy periods at work and whatnot. Singling it out to hybrid BNs only devalues the proposal as it becomes very clear that this is just a change to target one person that you guys collectively feel resentment towards.

Re: "increased capability = increased responsibility" - I know the majority of you guys are not and don't intend to become hybrid BNs, but joining multiple modes is something people tend to do because they want to be free to contribute to more than one community. Given the extremely low incidence of hybrid BNs, that motivation is already clearly very low. Creating incentives specifically against unique displays of initiative seems counterproductive in a game driven purely by bored college students volunteering their free time.

My overall point is, why not just raise requirements for all BNs instead of just hybrids? Why is neonat so much more of a problem for morale than Nozhomi or whoever else the dead BN of the year is? A bi-annual or annual minimum would be a better approach since the main reason people go inactive is either a burnout and lack of motivation to mod or actually being busy and not wanting to spend half of their one or two free days in a week checking MV and metadata and whatnot. That way they could have periods of inactivity punctuated with bursts of activity when they do have motivation, but not skate by with eternally low activity which is what pisses off more engaged BNs.

If you feel that my responses are inflammatory, that is because I'm trying to cut straight to the core issues and ignoring all the bullshit semantics and window dressing, especially the neonat thing. For reference, there's 3 hybrid BNs, and I happen to know eiri and Riana are pretty active, so... Sorry if my bluntness feels like I'm trying to shut down discussion - I am not, I just want to discuss the actual matters at hand, not some tangential thing that just so happens to address the main concern.


See, this is where you're wrong. Look at the activity for the past 90 days, and say that again. All the hybrid BNs happen to meet or surpass the minimum activity requirement, but look again and see that 2 taiko noms or 3 catch noms simply does not fare up, and makes the title of hybrid BN look more like a joke than anything. This is one nomination or less for that mode per month, and at this rate are you even contributing? Not even considering that some of those nominations may or may not have been b4b or reserved for familiar people / friends, which only means they're even more unapproachable for the respective non-standard modes and in hindsight mappers are rightfully frustrated about the current situation. This is not a hybrid-specific issue obviously, but it doesn't help matters at all.

Genuine question - what purpose does arbitrarily making hybrid BN do more serve?

They're already making themselves available for more game modes. The idea of having them do double, triple or quadruple the normal BN workload just because they're qualified enough (and have actively put their hand up) to do so seems silly to me. Who in their right mind would willingly become a hybrid BN in these circumstances? It isn't as if they're getting double, triple or quadruple the "reward" for it either.

If a BN is fulfilling the global minimum expectations of activity across any skillset they're capable in and have volunteered to assist with, that should be enough. Hybrid BN shouldn't be innately expected to do more than anyone else in that regard. It's frankly bizarre to me that there's this apparently concerted push to punish people for having diverse skillsets.

The evaluation and oversight burden NAT side potentially becomes a problem in the global activity scenario listed above, since it is going to be difficult for them to properly eval someone if they've got like one nomination for their additional mode(s) per 90 days to deal with. I don't think that's necessarily a dealbreaker though, and someone who falls out of practice or proficiency in any of their hybridized skillsets is going to become obvious very quickly when DQ's start happening.

To summarize my thoughts:

1. Becoming a hybrid BN is a voluntary choice and should signal only that you're capable and willing to handle mods/noms in multiple gamemodes and exactly nothing else
2. Expecting hybrid BN to take on 2-4x additional workload for no extra effective reward is unrealistic and we shouldn't be doing this
3. BN activity requirements should be global - if the requirement is a hypothetical 12 nominations per month, a hybrid std/taiko BN can meet this requirement in any combination they like - 8 std/4 taiko, 11 std/1 taiko, 0 std/12 taiko, it's entirely up to them
4. Going for long periods of time without a single nomination (let's say 180 days) in a hybrid game mode would cause that mode to be removed from a BN's profile and they'd be required to reapply for it again
5. People generally need to concern themselves far less with the activity levels of individual people

Ephemeral wrote:

Genuine question - what purpose does arbitrarily making hybrid BN do more serve?

They're already making themselves available for more game modes.

Going for long periods of time without a single nomination (let's say 180 days) in a hybrid game mode would cause that mode to be removed from a BN's profile and they'd be required to reapply for it again

It's already troublesome enough to look for open BNs without accounting for "hybrid" BNs that neglect one mode.
Ensuring that they have to, say, nominate 2 maps PER mode, removes the possibility of neglecting one mode, making the search for BNs easier for users.

180 days is much longer than reasonable. i'd argue that, if no minimum noms/month, they should atleast have one nom for each mode within any 60 day span.

BN finder will reduce or eliminate a lot of the friction involved in finding BN in the future, so I don't think anyone should be especially concerned about that.

I'm not inherently against hybrid BNs having the freedom of choice when it comes to which mode they want to nominate maps in, so long as at least a certain criteria is met. This begs the question though - where do we draw the line?

Say, if you want to do 5 std and 1 taiko in one month, then do 1 std 5 taiko or something along those lines the next, sure, go for it. But what if it's about less than 5 individual nominations in one mode over the course of 90 days? What's the point then?

As of right now, 3 nominations a month as a bare minimum requirement is already stooping quite low in case of regular BNs, it's pretty much like being the kind of guy at work who regularly calls in sick but still shows up just barely enough to not get fired by default. And, in all honesty, what's the point of being a hybrid BN if you can't be bothered to do even the bare minimum amount of work in each respective mode?

I don't wanna be running in circles regarding this but I can't stress enough that as a mapper it frankly gets frustrating to see some people hardly ever nominate anything, and if they do it's on an "on my own accord" basis. Obviously not limited to hybrid BNs, but they're just as faulty at that as other BNs whose activity dips.

Also regarding the BN finder: I doubt this will do a lot, at least in non-standard modes.

throwing in my thoughts: i've always seen hybrid bns as bns who've just certified themselves of more than 1 mode, I don't agree that should mean they should take on more responsibilities

i think of it like a drivers licence. if someone is licensed to drive 2 different types of vehicles, does that mean they have to be required to drive twice as much?

The line should be drawn at global activity requirements for all BN, and nothing more. If a hypothetical 3 per month is all that is asked, then a hybrid BN should have the choice to perform any combination of nominations to meet that requirement.

All the hybrid status should infer is competence in multiple game modes.

There's no point getting hung up on the idea of people doing the "bare minimum" to get by. If people want to go that route, they'll go that route, and their activity has absolutely 0 bearing on you or anything you choose to do. Ultimately, these people are the NAT's responsibility to handle, and if they're really doing the absolute least expected of them, it is only a matter of time until they slip up and get the axe.

So when do we get started on raising the global activity requirements fellas.

Also, "a hybrid BN should have the choice to perform any combination of nominations to meet that requirement" is less than what we have right now, insinuating that a hybrid could just nominate nothing in one mode and do all their nominations in another. If there's no point in getting hung up on activity in general, that begs the question of why we even have minimum activity requirements at all. Is it to make sure BNs don't get rusty? Then obviously that would apply equally across modes, which it currently doesn't. Is it to be respectful of mappers who rely on BNs to nominate their maps with some reliability and frequency? Then that should apply to all modes, as well, which it currently doesn't.