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[added] [Proposal] Change rule about osu! source to credit songs commissioned for a community-run to

posted
Total Posts
22
atlas
236 posts
Joined October 2016
Topic Starter
atlas
Currently, the rule in question states: 
osu! itself should never be used in the source field except in cases where the track was specifically created for osu! (also known as an osu! original), such as commissioned tournament tiebreaker tracks.
I'm going to use this as an example to try and better explain what I mean; II-L - Asteroid Field of DECAPLETS, mapped by DeviousPanda. The source used for this map is osu!, as the rule states, yet the song originally comes from the Intermediate Global Taiko Showdown 2021 tournament. This seems quite unfair, as it's suggesting that the song comes directly from osu!, like the Featured Artist page or the osu! World Cup, yet it comes from an entirely different tournament. This does not give the correct credit to the song. It may be in tags & description, but A: osu!direct is widely used instead of website downloading, and B: there is a highly unlikely chance that people will search for "Intermediate Global Taiko Showdown 2021" in-game or on the website.

An example where the origin of the commissioned song is used in the source field is Palace of Melancholia, mapped by DeviousPanda, captin1 & Realazy. If the current rule had been enforced onto this map, the source would be osu!, but instead it is Corsace; as the song had been commissioned for Corsace Open 2021 as a Grand Finals Tiebreaker. More support to this idea is present in the comments of the mod linked. 1 2 3

There are multiple instances of both cases here, but the most nonsensical one should be ruled out. Therefore,
My proposal is to change the current rule to:
osu! itself should never be used in the source field except in cases where the track was specifically created for osu! (also known as an osu! original), such as commissioned osu! World Cup tracks. If the track originates from a non-official tournament, the name of the tournament must be used; however, osu! must be present in tags.
This allows for tournaments to be given credit for the price & work spent on these commissioned songs, while still having osu! show up in search results, or on osu!direct, especially as there are more unknown tournaments or ones that are bound to small communities that may not be recognized. Suggestions / changes appreciated
Last edited by atlas , edited 8 times in total.
DeviousPanda
Elite Mapper
330 posts
Joined September 2014
DeviousPanda
just as context for the palace of melancholia one, we had a choice as it was a preference to do it either as osu or as corsace, as both would be valid, same for decaplets as either can be used

dont agree that its misrepresented credit but thats all i wanted to say on the matter, (that its not really good to use palace of melancholia as an example as we had the choice to use either)
Last edited by DeviousPanda , edited 1 time in total.
atlas
236 posts
Joined October 2016
Topic Starter
atlas
there are multiple other cases of this but palace of melancholia was the first one off the top of my head, apologies
im cute
258 posts
Joined June 2017
im cute
disagree because;

1. having osu! as source is just as valid as having the tournament as source because;
a) if you have a song made for a tournament, it is also indrectly made for osu so is sourced from the game
b) osu! may be an easier alternative than a tournament as osu! is more easier to recognise.

2. you are effectively removing freedom of choice from mappers.
currently, mappers are able to choose one or the other as their primary source, with the change, mappers are forced into one alternative

the appropriate fix in my opinion;
being able to have a list on the beatmap page that shows maps that are featured in tournaments, similar to how genre/language is listed; there could be a flair, piece of text, or something that the host could indicate to show the song was a comissioned song for use in the tournament in question
Last edited by im cute , edited 2 times in total.
Kasumi-sama
649 posts
Joined March 2015
Kasumi-sama
Fully agree with this proposal.

And honestly, it makes more sense to put in Source as the tournament either way currently, considering how all custom songs mapsets (from community tournaments) that I know are ranked currently all have the tournament in the source, instead of osu! (Examples: 1 2 3 4)

So if there's a choice between one or the other, I'd say that being consistent with the maps ranked in the past few months is the better choice, and it is more precise in general.
Last edited by Kasumi-sama , edited 4 times in total.
atlas
236 posts
Joined October 2016
Topic Starter
atlas

Mokobe wrote:

the appropriate fix in my opinion;
being able to have a list on the beatmap page that shows maps that are featured in tournaments, similar to how genre/language is listed; there could be a flair, piece of text, or something that the host could indicate to show the song was a comissioned song for use in the tournament in question
can side with this
Kasumi-sama
649 posts
Joined March 2015
Kasumi-sama

atlas- wrote:

Mokobe wrote:

the appropriate fix in my opinion;
being able to have a list on the beatmap page that shows maps that are featured in tournaments, similar to how genre/language is listed; there could be a flair, piece of text, or something that the host could indicate to show the song was a comissioned song for use in the tournament in question
can side with this
This isn't quite it, but there is currently a discussion over adding a flair for tournament custom maps on osu!web's GitHub. https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/8436

Doesn't sound like this kind of solution would be supported from the answers of devs though.
DeviousPanda
Elite Mapper
330 posts
Joined September 2014
DeviousPanda

Kasumi-sama wrote:

Fully agree with this proposal.

And honestly, it makes more sense to put in Source as the tournament either way currently, considering how all custom songs mapsets (from community tournaments) that I know are ranked currently all have the tournament in the source, instead of osu! (Examples: 1 2 3 4)

So if there's a choice between one or the other, I'd say that being consistent with the maps ranked in the past few months is the better choice, and it is more precise in general.
I mean i think the difference for me and why i chose osu for decaplets is that the map wasnt specificaly made for igts, whereas the other maps are made for the tournaments specifically? Just explaining my specific thought process tho
atlas
236 posts
Joined October 2016
Topic Starter
atlas
ye but the source field is aimed at the song not the map
DeviousPanda
Elite Mapper
330 posts
Joined September 2014
DeviousPanda
yeah as i said just explaining why i made the choice i had
Annabel
Beatmap Nominator
565 posts
Joined October 2013
Annabel
current way allows either or to be used while this proposal would force people to know that the song was made for a specific tournament
atlas
236 posts
Joined October 2016
Topic Starter
atlas

eiri- wrote:

current way allows either or to be used while this proposal would force people to know that the song was made for a specific tournament
the rc has no indication that the current rule allows either. from the wording it makes it seem like all songs made for any tournament in the entire game should be labeled as osu!, instead of having the choice. i'd be happy with changing the proposal to allow either, but right now that is not how it is worded
antigen
131 posts
Joined July 2017
antigen
Agree with this proposal.

eiri- wrote:

current way allows either or to be used while this proposal would force people to know that the song was made for a specific tournament
So why not?
imo, not the osu! itself pays for the track, but the host of the tournament instead.
Based on that, I think credit should be given to those hosts/tournaments.
1103
276 posts
Joined October 2015
1103
+1 for credit towards tournament that comissioned it to be credited rather than 'osu!'
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
i agree that if a track was commissioned for a tournament it should use the tournament
9_9
43 posts
Joined January 2016
9_9

Mokobe wrote:

disagree because;

1. having osu! as source is just as valid as having the tournament as source because;
a) if you have a song made for a tournament, it is also indrectly made for osu so is sourced from the game
b) osu! may be an easier alternative than a tournament as osu! is more easier to recognise.

2. you are effectively removing freedom of choice from mappers.
currently, mappers are able to choose one or the other as their primary source, with the change, mappers are forced into one alternative

the appropriate fix in my opinion;
being able to have a list on the beatmap page that shows maps that are featured in tournaments, similar to how genre/language is listed; there could be a flair, piece of text, or something that the host could indicate to show the song was a comissioned song for use in the tournament in question
1. Maybe osu! is the only living popular simulator for osu! tatakae ouendan? idk? But the fact of the matter is that there are multiple living simulators for taiko and literally any VSRG type game (etterna, quaver) so no, the song really did not have to be made for osu. This is a pretty poor point tbh

2. Come on dude, you are reaching at this point. Metadata is either correct or incorrect. Where is the space for opinion here?

Also it is inferred by my reply that I support the proposal
Last edited by 9_9 , edited 2 times in total.
Coppertine
120 posts
Joined October 2015
Coppertine
I want to put my own two cents into the ring. One of the major reasons I asked the question to peppy about unofficial tournament commissioned songs was due to one made for a Turkish tournament. That being SAMString's NUMA, we had the choice to do either osu! or mezelyus' Summer Tournament but we found it easier to use osu! as the source since it was allowed under peppy's comment. As well, the artist used could technically be on featured artist page later on.
Last edited by Coppertine , edited 2 times in total.
atlas
236 posts
Joined October 2016
Topic Starter
atlas
osu! source is not used for featured artist songs anymore
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
the current rule says nothing implying you should use osu! as the source, only that you are allowed to. this rule is good as-is

I think you should instead try to update the following rule:
If a series applicable as a source contains sub-series, the most precise label must be used as the source. If a song has multiple applicable sub-series, the main series/franchise may be used instead.
because the gist of this issue is preferring "the most precise label", which is already the norm for everything in osu! metadata, but this rule only mentions "sub-series" instead of the general idea. updating the language to more generally require "the most precise label" would then make "osu!" a worse choice for the maps you mentioned

e: but it also might be worth cleaning up the wording of the first rule you mentioned because it's not so clear that "should never" + "except" = "may"
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

1103 wrote:

+1 for credit towards tournament that comissioned it to be credited rather than 'osu!'
Agree. If the source is 'osu!', it should be used if AND only if the song is specifically made for osu! (the originals) and/or commissioned in official tournaments. Honestly just putting 'osu!' in tags doesn't hurt, if you map a song commissioned from community tournaments.

This proposal definitely clears out the misleading source issue.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
i think this explains the best way forward community/forums/posts/8472876

for community-run tournaments, if you'd like them recognized somewhere, a wiki article listing tournaments with custom maps would work well

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/7433
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
merged
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