Why can't we silence silder-ends?
forum
[Rule] Silent hitsounds
posted
Total Posts
61
silencing slider ends should definitely be allowedSync wrote:
Why can't we silence silder-ends?
i'll never forget how well they fit in this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/34043
"Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections."Sync wrote:
Why can't we silence silder-ends?
I agree with this change, I don't think it will hurt anyone and it is explained better than before.
OH, I misread. My bad ^_^
Kodora
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46660 (Ikusa!)pieguy1372 wrote:
silencing slider ends should definitely be allowedSync wrote:
Why can't we silence silder-ends?
i'll never forget how well they fit in this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/34043
Another perfect example, also great map.
It will be possible only using 0% sections in this case.Shiro wrote:
Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections.
0% sections don't exist anymore. They used to but peppy made 5% as lowest (which can still be audible sometimes btw) because it wasn't intended to completely silence something in the first place.
You can't define this correctly. If you have a good audio system you will normally hear more than what you would hear on an average system. It also depends on what volume settings you use. Why would you go for lowest possible audibility anyway, that makes no sense, if you want something quiet you silence it if you are allowed to.popner wrote:
Audible = how many dB? If this is not clearly defined the rule is meaningless.
Don't forget to mention that they must be audible with both hitsound and music volume at the same level.
Topic Starter
You cannot use empty or silent samples if they are used by themselves except for sliderslides, sliderticks, and spinner sounds. Using silent samples for sliderslide or slidertick is allowed, but not both at the same time. Additionally, hitsounds from circles and slider heads must be audible (this is measured using the default skinsounds and settings). Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections.
Kodora
Just dont get one thing
You allowes silencing slidersides, sliderticks, spinner sounds by empty samples but not allowes this for spinner and slider ends (and you mentiored that ALL of them can be silent, which contradicts with your previous sentence).
Sorry but it looks illogical. Silence is a silence (what means no any sounds at all), and audible notes are audible notes (what means that they still sounds).
Can you please explain why ends of sliders/spinners should be exceptions for blanket sample usage if they can be silent same as slidersides, sliderticks, spinner sounds?
You allowes silencing slidersides, sliderticks, spinner sounds by empty samples but not allowes this for spinner and slider ends (and you mentiored that ALL of them can be silent, which contradicts with your previous sentence).
Sorry but it looks illogical. Silence is a silence (what means no any sounds at all), and audible notes are audible notes (what means that they still sounds).
Can you please explain why ends of sliders/spinners should be exceptions for blanket sample usage if they can be silent same as slidersides, sliderticks, spinner sounds?
Topic Starter
They use samples for the hitsounds you hear from circles, while slideslides and sliderticks don't, and these are the ones you're not allowed to silence unless you use other hitsounds on top of them. Completely silencing them should honestly be unrankable. Previous rule allowed for 5% sections, but no less.
Using a blank sample to silence sliderends and spinners is not rankable.
Using a blank sample to silence sliderends and spinners is not rankable.
Kodora
Fact that they uses samples from circles doesnt mean that they works as a circles. Players dont need to hit them, so they dont need to have feedback from them if music not requires it. There are also a lot of cases where slider or spinner ends snapped to nothing at music, so why it should sounds at all?Shiro wrote:
They use samples for the hitsounds you hear from circles, while slideslides and sliderticks don't, and these are the ones you're not allowed to silence unless you use other hitsounds on top of them. Completely silencing them should honestly be unrankable. Previous rule allowed for 5% sections, but no less.
Rule as it now allowes using blank sample for ends of sliders/spinners, and there are a lot of ranked maps what using them. Where it not allowed in a current rule? Silence means silence (completely not audible using blanket sample for sliderticks, sliderside (not together), spinner sounds, ends of spinners, ends of sliders).Shiro wrote:
Using a blank sample to silence sliderends and spinners is not rankable.
Topic Starter
This was never actually allowed. Blank samples by themselves have always been unrankable, but lowering volume (and thus not achieving complete silence, which is the point) through timing sections is fine. If you're putting a beat in the map then muting it it means the beat never belonged there in the first place and shows you're blatantly overmapping.Kodora wrote:
Rule as it now allowes using blank sample for ends of sliders/spinners, and there are a lot of ranked maps what using them. Where it not allowed in a current rule?
Kodora
If something not directly banned it is allowed i guess. Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. - yes, i totally agree with it! - but not the blank samples itself. There is no anything wrong if blank used NOT for hitcircles/starts of sliders.Shiro wrote:
This was never actually allowed. Blank samples by themselves have always been unrankable, but lowering volume (and thus not achieving complete silence, which is the point) through timing sections is fine. If you're putting a beat in the map then muting it it means the beat never belonged there in the first place and shows you're blatantly overmapping.
Current rule sounds perfect. You can completely silent end of spinner/slider with blanket if it makes sence (if there are no beat at music as example). It cant be considered as "overmap" (i actually wont agree with any "overmap" definition) because if there are nothing to hit and nothing to sound it wont change absolutely anything. Adding empty normal-hitnormal.wav for slider/spinner ends is just technical fixing of useless sound (if it really useless), like people do with sliderticks/slidersides.Ranking Criteria wrote:
The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense.
Maybe "You're allowed to silence the hitnormal only if you got another hitsound on the same note?"
Every time I play a silenced slider end, a kitten dies. I agree pretty much with Shiro there, if you have to silence something because there's no beat in music, why did you put something there?
Spinners are a different thing as they're very used in fade out parts, so lowering volume for them could be fine, but I'd be also against silencing spinners as the spinning feedback is nice, but idk if this is just a personal taste.
Spinners are a different thing as they're very used in fade out parts, so lowering volume for them could be fine, but I'd be also against silencing spinners as the spinning feedback is nice, but idk if this is just a personal taste.
Kodora
Because of nature of sliders what always have ends and mapper cant do anything with it. Slider holding gives different feelings than simple note. As i said before, it is just technical fixing of useless sound.DakeDekaane wrote:
I agree pretty much with Shiro there, if you have to silence something because there's no beat in music, why did you put something there?
Slider =/= 2 notes please.
So how to judge if a sound is audible? I mean that if something is in rule it must be objective and can be judged by everyone. That's why I think this should not be in rules.lolcubes wrote:
You can't define this correctly. If you have a good audio system you will normally hear more than what you would hear on an average system. It also depends on what volume settings you use. Why would you go for lowest possible audibility anyway, that makes no sense, if you want something quiet you silence it if you are allowed to.popner wrote:
Audible = how many dB? If this is not clearly defined the rule is meaningless.
Rules must be intersubjective not objective.
I really wonder when people will comprehend this.
I really wonder when people will comprehend this.
this for god sakespopner wrote:
Slider =/= 2 notes please.
in my map I posted, sliders fit better to give a "hold" feeling. but, since the end is too noisy, it works way better being silenced
slider definitely isn't the same as 2 notes, it's not the same thing at all orz
Drumnormals and softnormals are easily quiet enough if the mapper doesn't want much tactility on a slider's end. There still needs to be some kind of sensation of finishing the slider.
this has sat stagnant for a long time - is there any further feedback people have on the matter before the amendment is considered for finalization?
Kodora
Still disagree. Slider/spinner ends may be not snapped to the beat in music (as example slider/spinner what follows long note what ends in silence). Having completely silent slider/spinner end by using blank hitnormal will make sense in this case.
Some examples of completely silent slider/spinner ends where it works as well:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84218
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/77871
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/145570
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/274700
5% volume may still be audible (it very depends on song choise). Current rule is fine.
Some examples of completely silent slider/spinner ends where it works as well:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84218
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/77871
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/145570
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/274700
5% volume may still be audible (it very depends on song choise). Current rule is fine.
The slider/spinner issue can be solved pretty easily by ending one in a logical part of the music. Consider that hitsounds are effective when they're additive, so an additional jingle or tap could sound right with the music. A soft-hitnormal adds almost nothing to the tactility of an object, especially at 5%. Spinners and sliders have defined ends, so the audible feedback kind of makes sense.
I'd also question the necessity of mapping over the decay of a note, instead of the last impact occurring over its attack where there'd be a satisfying conclusion. However, that's not really something that I can impose. That said, it's effective enough that nobody would ever need to worry about ending an object in "the right place" when a note's dying.
I'd go ahead and enforce this rule. Every object needs to provide some audible feedback and if the existing hitsounds don't express something in the track adequately, there are always custom hitsounds to find and make.
I'd also question the necessity of mapping over the decay of a note, instead of the last impact occurring over its attack where there'd be a satisfying conclusion. However, that's not really something that I can impose. That said, it's effective enough that nobody would ever need to worry about ending an object in "the right place" when a note's dying.
I'd go ahead and enforce this rule. Every object needs to provide some audible feedback and if the existing hitsounds don't express something in the track adequately, there are always custom hitsounds to find and make.
Topic Starter
Kodora, I think you might want to either learn how to read or make sure that you understand english. The rule does not make silenced spinnerends and sliderends unrankable - they can be achieved through 5% sections without restrictions. Please stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and showing up your opinion and try to actually contribute. Direct quote from the rule: "Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections."
They said that 5% can still be audible and that it bothers them. I think they understood anything.Shiro wrote:
Kodora, I think you might want to either learn how to read or make sure that you understand english. The rule does not make silenced spinnerends and sliderends unrankable - they can be achieved through 5% sections without restrictions. Please stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and showing up your opinion and try to actually contribute. Direct quote from the rule: "Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections."
Don't patronise. It isn't professional.
Kodora
This. As lolcubes said, it can be audible sometimes.D33d wrote:
They said that 5% can still be audible and that it bothers them.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/90434 (C.Hero) - This map uses a lot of notes with lowered volume (03:53:206 (6,7,8), 03:51:510 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - 5-10% volume sections) what is still pretty much audible due to very calm vocal and no background music (audibility of all this sections was confirmed by several BATs)
There is nothing wrong with silencing slider/spinnerends with blank sample as long as it makes sense (long note what ends in silence as example). Since same way to silencing allowed for spinnersounds, sliderticks and sliderslides i dont see any reason to add exceptions for slider-/spinnerends.
Just because it happens in a few maps does not mean we need to enable something that can be abused with ease.
Like honestly, it can't bother you that much that a few spinners are slightly audible. That is nonsense.
Like honestly, it can't bother you that much that a few spinners are slightly audible. That is nonsense.
Kodora
Thats why we have modding process - to prevent any abusely usage. There are a lot of currently avaliable rankable options what can be abused in a much worse way (HP10, OD10, high SV+high BPM etc) but i believe noone will rank such maps untill this will be changed.MMzz wrote:
Just because it happens in a few maps does not mean we need to enable something that can be abused with ease.
By the way, current rule was already allowing it. How many abuse maps was ranked?
Disagree. It depending on how much care mapper about his hitsounds work. For some people even such tiny thing may sounds weird. (I already ranked examples what definitely needs completely silent slider-/spinnerends)MMzz wrote:
Like honestly, it can't bother you that much that a few spinners are slightly audible. That is nonsense.
You cannot use empty or silent samples if they are used by themselves except for sliderslides, sliderticks, and spinner sounds. Using silent samples for sliderslide or slidertick is allowed, but not both at the same time. Additionally, hitsounds from circles and slider heads must be audible (this is measured using the default skinsounds and settings). Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections.becomes:
Silenced hitsounds:Is this better?
Silent hitsound samples are not allowed for most notes. The only exceptions to this rule are sliderslides, sliderticks and spinner samples. Silent sliderslide or slidertick may not be used together on the same object - only one distinct silent sample may apply to a given hitobject at the same time. Hitsounds from hitcircles and slider starting points must also be audible. Spinner ending hitsounds may be silenced, but only by use of inherited sections within the editor.
I'd prefer this rule read "you should not use silent samples."
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
Wastelanded a few posts a moment ago - please don't post in these threads if you have nothing on-topic to contribute, you are risking your account if you do so!
Topic Starter
I'd just add two more things (which I highlighted in green) to avoid any confusion, even if it is kind of redundant. And I agree with peppy, but I don't tihnk anyone else does.Ephemeral wrote:
Silenced hitsounds:Is this better?
Silent hitsound samples are not allowed for most notes. The only exceptions to this rule are sliderslides, sliderticks and spinner samples. Silent sliderslide or slidertick may not be used together on the same object - only one distinct silent sample may apply to a given hitobject at the same time. Hitsounds from hitcircles and slider starting points must also be audible. Spinner or slider ending hitsounds may be silenced, but only by use of inherited sections within the editor, 5% being the minimum rankable volume.
Kodora
Actually, there is a famous case where spinner end(or slider end) hitsounds can bother you:
Using one of them at the end and making it continue a little after the music. As rates between 1% and 5% had been disabled, having those kind of slider or spinner at 5% of volume can still bother the mapper about it.
Another case would be, for example, a slow slider that start with a cymbal where a song brutally interrupt, and end when the song (brutally) restart. One solution could be done by linking the hitsound volume to the volume of the song, making it so "the hitsound volume must be higher than the music volume" but enabling the use of volumes >0% ( means higher than 0%, so you'll not permit to silence them completely anyway ).
Using one of them at the end and making it continue a little after the music. As rates between 1% and 5% had been disabled, having those kind of slider or spinner at 5% of volume can still bother the mapper about it.
Another case would be, for example, a slow slider that start with a cymbal where a song brutally interrupt, and end when the song (brutally) restart. One solution could be done by linking the hitsound volume to the volume of the song, making it so "the hitsound volume must be higher than the music volume" but enabling the use of volumes >0% ( means higher than 0%, so you'll not permit to silence them completely anyway ).
That doesn't even make sense, and in this case the mapper should shorten the slider or spinner, and not silence the hitsounds. The ending of the spinner/slider should be logical.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Using one of them at the end and making it continue a little after the music
I think that 5% is really NOT disturbing.
Kodora
Depends to the song. And depends to what slider/spinner end snapped. If they are snapped to silence because note ends in silence it doesnt makes sence at all to keep them audible in any volume level. And shorten sliders/spinners will be just weird.Mystyk wrote:
That doesn't even make sense, and in this case the mapper should shorten the slider or spinner, and not silence the hitsounds. The ending of the spinner/slider should be logical.
I think that 5% is really NOT disturbing.
And this is why I use my own hitsounds or just don't play maps often with silenced hitsounds. It just feels weird, especially with hidden D:
Well lets get this one wrapped up and finalized I propose we keep what shiro has suggested. I'm going to put this into amended in 24 hours if you wish to still discuss I suggest you do so now.
Kodora
I just going to quote myself
According to mm201's words, 5% isn't considered silence, but just fair and reasonable volume minimum for most kinds of music. Effective silence by 5% is just impossible sometimes (depends to BGM).
Current rule sounds perfect and clean - please, finalize this as no change.
This thread is actually kind of duplicate of an old finalized discussionKodora wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/90434 (C.Hero) - This map uses a lot of notes with lowered volume (03:53:206 (6,7,8), 03:51:510 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - 5-10% volume sections) what is still pretty much audible due to very calm vocal and no background music (audibility of all this sections was confirmed by several BATs)
There is nothing wrong with silencing slider/spinnerends with blank sample as long as it makes sense (long note what ends in silence as example). Since same way to silencing allowed for spinnersounds, sliderticks and sliderslides i dont see any reason to add exceptions for slider-/spinnerends.
According to mm201's words, 5% isn't considered silence, but just fair and reasonable volume minimum for most kinds of music. Effective silence by 5% is just impossible sometimes (depends to BGM).
Current rule sounds perfect and clean - please, finalize this as no change.
Since "silent" it's dependant on the music part, it's difficult to define where a certain hit object volume would be fine with logical methods, so let's stick the "silent" definiton to BATs and modder senses.
Topic Starter
The current wording is horrible, confusing and absolutely not clear. The purpose of this is to change the wording, not the content.
That's somewhat like an absolute part, so it's a rule~
w
That's a guideline, since it's dependant on the musical sense of players and modders, and as such, it's not absolute, but relative.
You cannot use empty or silent samples for any hitsounds other than sliderslides or sliderticks(not both slider sounds), and spinner sounds. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online.↑ changed the start, enlarged the part specified by the rule, specified the "Using silent samples for sliderslide or slidertick is allowed, but not both at the same time." in the rule by putting the "or" part, added "why that rule exist".
w
That's a guideline, since it's dependant on the musical sense of players and modders, and as such, it's not absolute, but relative.
Hitsounds from circles and slider heads must be audible using the default settings. You can lower the hitsounds volumes, but not to the point the hitsound is so low you can't hear it. Differently, silencing spinners and sliderends is allowed when done with inherited sections, depending on the case you do it. This is to prevent the circumvention of the rule that prevent the use of silent hitsounds.↑ specified that the "using default setting" is still part of the guideline, changed and extended some parts, and added why the guideline exist
Kodora
So, according to this wording.. silencing slider/spinnerends via blank samples will be allowed for specified cases?HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Differently, silencing spinners and sliderends is allowed, depending on the case you do it. This is to prevent the circumvention of the rule that prevent the use of silent hitsounds.
Topic Starter
Usage of silent samples by themselves is not allowed for these. No matter what.
Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections.you had wrote this.
So, it CAN be done with inherited sections (still, without editing the .osu), so only a "partial" silencing can be obtained.
Though dampening would probably be a better word to define it.
Kodora
This.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
so only a "partial" silencing can be obtained.
I'd even say "partial audibility".
Also, editing .osu to achieve 0% volume won't help anyway, volume will still sounds as 5% - test it with any old map what have 0% sections and you will see it.
Partial audibility and silence is a two very, very different things and this was already discussed here and several times before. If silence for slider/spinnerends, sliderticks, spinnersounds and sliderslides is acceptable and everyone agree with this then it should be acceptable as silence, but not as partial audibility. Deny this please.
You guys need to study up on your English a bit more. You're arguing against a re-wording for clarification. Nothing is changing here - this is just making the rule that is already current easier to understand.
Kodora
Sadly this is not just re-wording. Current Ranking Criteria says nothing about blanket sample usage, but new suggested wording will directly disallow this for spinner/sliderends, what will be weird due to stuff what i mentiored above.
Haku's wording looks much more clean and will improve current rule, i'll just give some my suggestions:
Any suggestions?
Haku's wording looks much more clean and will improve current rule, i'll just give some my suggestions:
You cannot use empty or silent samples for hitcircles and starts of sliders. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides togetherDue to a lot of exceptions would be better to list only hitobjects what needs audible feedback (since players must always hit them down on time and defining timing by them). Of course, explaining part is needed too.
Hitsounds from circles and slider heads must be audible using the default settings. You can lower the hitsounds volumes, but not to the point the hitsound is so low you can't hear it. Differently, silencing spinners and sliderends is allowed, depending on the case you do it. This is to prevent the circumvention of the rule that prevent the use of silent hitsounds.This new rule & guideline will directly disallow usage of blanket samples for hitobjects what must be audible and will make current rule more clear without changing anything.
Any suggestions?
Topic Starter
You cannot use empty or silent samples if they are used by themselves except for sliderslides, sliderticks, and spinner sounds. Using silent samples for sliderslide or slidertick is allowed, but not both at the same time. Additionally, hitsounds from circles and slider heads must be audible (this is measured using the default skinsounds and settings). Silencing the end of spinners or sliders is allowed if done via inherited sections (5% volume being the minimum allowed).You're trying to split the rule into a rule and a guideline. You're just trying to word things in an unnecessarily confusing way for seemingly no good reason. I'm bubbling this exact wording. If no actual problem is raised, I'll be finalizing this witihn a week. Everything in the last page or so is people refusing to understand the point of this thread. Previous rule has holes and unclear problems, which this wording fixes.
Using blank samples by themselves has never been allowed. I'm not sure why it disappeared from the rules, but the rule as it was worded previously implied it. I'm just making it clear.
EDIT: for clarification, because my wording sucks, I'm referring to the set of rules that was in place before Derekku revisited them, which disallowed them.
Kodora
May i ask what's wrong with usage of blanket samples for slider/spinnerends by themselves if silencing makes sense in specified cases?Shiro wrote:
Using blank samples has never been allowed. I'm not sure why it disappeared from the rules.
This is not exist in rules because spinnerends and sliderends are hitobjects what don't require a knowledge of the beat so reasonable silencing of them won't hurt actual gameplay. I really doubt that it "disappears" just by "mistake" or so.
What is the cause of their disallowing for this?
This has been talked over more than enough the wording now is clear enough to understand what it means amended