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[Proposal] Allow (Game Ver.) marker without needing a source that states such verbatim

posted
Total Posts
16
wafer
790 posts
Joined December 2016
Topic Starter
wafer
It seems nonsensical that some songs are allowed to have the (Game Ver.) or (Short Ver.) marker and some aren't despite there being no fundamental difference in the purpose or origin of the two hypothetical songs, simply because one game or artist had the foresight to state those exact words (or words to that effect) verbatim and the other didn't.

Current rule:
If a song title contains short or game version markers, the markers must be standardized to (Short Ver.) and (Game Ver.) respectively

Proposed rule:
If a song title contains short or game version markers, the markers must be standardized to (Short Ver.) and (Game Ver.) respectively. If a song title lacks a short or game version marker but is officially shortened by the artist or to be featured in a game or other media form, the (Game Ver.) or (Short Ver.) marker may also be used
Last edited by wafer , edited 1 time in total.
AJT
551 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
think I agree with this at first glance, can't seem to think of any complications that would make this not worth doing, will ruminate on it for a bit though

other thoughts appreciated
Annabel
Beatmap Nominator
565 posts
Joined October 2013
Annabel
imagine u map a song that existed before the game but later on happened to be used as the op for a game

btw if this Does come to pass u may wanna edit ur proposal to say, "must" or "should" instead of "may" cuz then it sounds Optional.
Last edited by Annabel , edited 1 time in total.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
- all game ost would fall under this. this includes both short loop versions and full versions and more. distinguishing between these if you wouldn't want everything to fall into this would make the rule very long and complex to follow.

- video game usage is much more ambiguous between short versions of the original song, versus the game version being extended later. distinguishing these is murky at best and requires a lot of soul searching on the release history of different versions of the song at worst to determine if it was cut for the game or if the game is the original and it was extended later on. this is especially the case for rhythm games where extended versions are common, or simultaneous release for hyping the song up is also common. which is the original? how do you know? how do you define that?

more complicated than it'd ever be worth, in my opinion. tv size is fairly consistent across the board and more specific in use, while also being very popular on osu to make it worthwhile and effort-effective to standardize.
Last edited by Noffy , edited 1 time in total.
AJT
551 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT

Noffy wrote:

- all game ost would fall under this. this includes both short loop versions and full versions and more. distinguishing between these if you wouldn't want everything to fall into this would make the rule very long and complex to follow.

- video game usage is much more ambiguous between short versions of the original song, versus the game version being extended later. distinguishing these is murky at best and requires a lot of soul searching on the release history of different versions of the song at worst to determine if it was cut for the game or if the game is the original and it was extended later on. this is especially the case for rhythm games where extended versions are common, or simultaneous release for hyping the song up is also common. which is the original? how do you know? how do you define that?

more complicated than it'd ever be worth, in my opinion. tv size is fairly consistent across the board and more specific in use, while also being very popular on osu to make it worthwhile and effort-effective to standardize.
I still would feel like making it optional at least (as eiri- stated) would be more beneficial than *not* allowing it, even in clear-cut cases
since for more complex cases where it's not worth it or other cases where commonsense should prevail, it can?
wafer
790 posts
Joined December 2016
Topic Starter
wafer

eiri- wrote:

imagine u map a song that existed before the game but later on happened to be used as the op for a game

btw if this Does come to pass u may wanna edit ur proposal to say, "must" or "should" instead of "may" cuz then it sounds Optional.
I believe using "may" instead of "must" is fine. If the official metadata source has game or short version markers, then you MUST use the appropriate marker. However, if the official metadata does not, and your mp3 is the same or nearly identical to the game or short version, you MAY use the marker to distinguish between longer versions of the song.
Annabel
Beatmap Nominator
565 posts
Joined October 2013
Annabel
if it is just for May instances then that makes this way more complicated than it is meant to be for what u want it to, "fix"
wafer
790 posts
Joined December 2016
Topic Starter
wafer

eiri- wrote:

if it is just for May instances then that makes this way more complicated than it is meant to be for what u want it to, "fix"
Not sure how this would end up being more complicated, does this not just give mappers the choice to distinguish between the official game and short versions and the full-size songs? It doesn't require any extra complications in searching and finding official metadata.

If it's about songs that, after release, end up becoming featured in games or other media forms, would this not provide the flexibility for mappers to base their mapset around whether or not to associate it with the game or media?
Last edited by wafer , edited 1 time in total.
Soue
952 posts
Joined August 2018
Soue

eiri- wrote:

imagine u map a song that existed before the game but later on happened to be used as the op for a game

btw if this Does come to pass u may wanna edit ur proposal to say, "must" or "should" instead of "may" cuz then it sounds Optional.
I agree here. If it's optional then the results could risk unnecessary inconsistencies in the search library. Think about if there are two mapsets with the same game op and one of them utilizes the title marker whereas the other one doesn't, even though they're the same song. To my conclusion here I think that the rule should state a clear yes or a no; not a maybe.



Noffy wrote:

- all game ost would fall under this. this includes both short loop versions and full versions and more. distinguishing between these if you wouldn't want everything to fall into this would make the rule very long and complex to follow.

- video game usage is much more ambiguous between short versions of the original song, versus the game version being extended later. distinguishing these is murky at best and requires a lot of soul searching on the release history of different versions of the song at worst to determine if it was cut for the game or if the game is the original and it was extended later on. this is especially the case for rhythm games where extended versions are common, or simultaneous release for hyping the song up is also common. which is the original? how do you know? how do you define that?

more complicated than it'd ever be worth, in my opinion. tv size is fairly consistent across the board and more specific in use, while also being very popular on osu to make it worthwhile and effort-effective to standardize.
I don't know how it's distinguished between looped and short game osts, so I don't have any say in this area particularly.

However you mentioned that "tv size is fairly consistent accross the board and more specific in use /.../" and I disagree. That's because the tv size maker should also indicate every songs that are being used in the anime similar to the game ver. marker, if we're going by your argument. I mean if osts fall into the same category as openings for game ver. songs, then shouldn't the same apply to tv size? There are plenty of anime osts mapped and ranked without the marker, so I don't see why game osts wouldn't be able to do the same.

It's also hard to believe that game osts have two of the same original tracks, divided in a looped and a short version. But as I mentioned in the beginning of my post, I don't know how they're distinguished and when I said that, I meant primarily on this platform.

If you ask me, inconsistencies and complications are unavoidable at this point, because they already exist. This is why I believe it's valid to standardize game ver. for game openings, just like how tv size is standardized for anime openings.
Last edited by Soue , edited 5 times in total.
bokeru
465 posts
Joined December 2017
bokeru

Noffy wrote:

- all game ost would fall under this. this includes both short loop versions and full versions and more. distinguishing between these if you wouldn't want everything to fall into this would make the rule very long and complex to follow.
I don't... I don't think that would make it complex. It'd be as simple as "Looping bgm songs should not use the (Game Ver.) marker" - there's no such thing as a game version if the whole composition is used, then subsequently looped. That distinction is basically as simple as BGM versus songs that are essentially openings for a game.
Last edited by bokeru , edited 1 time in total.
momoyo
Nomination Assessment Team
247 posts
Joined June 2018
momoyo

wafer wrote:

Not sure how this would end up being more complicated, does this not just give mappers the choice to distinguish between the official game and short versions and the full-size songs? It doesn't require any extra complications in searching and finding official metadata.

If it's about songs that, after release, end up becoming featured in games or other media forms, would this not provide the flexibility for mappers to base their mapset around whether or not to associate it with the game or media?
The issue here is that you’re changing a rule not a guideline, and rules can’t go by “may” since it’s something everyone must follow no matter what. Therefore it’s has to be a must do for that exact reason.

Also I kinda disagree at the moment with this rule to be honest, knowing how dark metadata can be depending the CD releases it can change from (Short Ver.) to (Game Ver.) or even in cases where the exact same version gets used in a TV Animation (Example: Love Live, Bandori, other rhythm games ig) I think the way the rule is currently is good enough considering these points.
wafer
790 posts
Joined December 2016
Topic Starter
wafer

Lanzhu wrote:

wafer wrote:

Not sure how this would end up being more complicated, does this not just give mappers the choice to distinguish between the official game and short versions and the full-size songs? It doesn't require any extra complications in searching and finding official metadata.

If it's about songs that, after release, end up becoming featured in games or other media forms, would this not provide the flexibility for mappers to base their mapset around whether or not to associate it with the game or media?
The issue here is that you’re changing a rule not a guideline, and rules can’t go by “may” since it’s something everyone must follow no matter what. Therefore it’s has to be a must do for that exact reason.

Also I kinda disagree at the moment with this rule to be honest, knowing how dark metadata can be depending the CD releases it can change from (Short Ver.) to (Game Ver.) or even in cases where the exact same version gets used in a TV Animation (Example: Love Live, Bandori, other rhythm games ig) I think the way the rule is currently is good enough considering these points.
Could we not just leave the current rule and make this one a guideline? Perhaps proposing to make this suggestion a guideline and NOT a rule would allow the flexibility required?
Last edited by wafer , edited 1 time in total.
momoyo
Nomination Assessment Team
247 posts
Joined June 2018
momoyo

wafer wrote:

Could we not just leave the current rule and make this one a guideline? Perhaps proposing to make this suggestion a guideline and NOT a rule would allow the flexibility required?
Yeah I guess that would make this a different thing to do. However. When should we apply (Game Ver.) and when should we apply (Short Ver.)? Since there’s nothing to follow regarding meta if this guideline gets applied mappers wouldn’t know when to apply each of those two since they would be following a guideline, not the song’s metadata
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
This proposal really voices me when I want to map some old songs that are shortened in game, namely DDR. Maybe we can move this proposal to guidelines instead, since honestly, there are a lot of 'game cuts'. Maybe we can extend the guidelines to this (note that I only talk about game version, not short or whatever it is):

  1. If the song's duration is different compared to the album version, a marker (Game Ver.) may be used. (Short Ver.) may only be used if the song's duration is also shorter compared to the album version.
  2. If there are multiple different versions of the song used in various medias, add respective suffix (XX Ver.), replacing XX with the source name where the song cut comes from. If the source media has official marker with different naming method (for example, YY), the markers should be standardized to (YY Ver.)
A bit of story telling: I felt really conflicted when mapping one of the song from Project SEKAI game (beatmapsets/1677453) due to difficulty of determining the suffix. The game provides multiple versions, which are:
  1. (VIRTUAL SINGER ver) which is basically how the song originally come from (not always)
  2. (SEKAI ver) which the 'official' version in the game, where the song meant to be played with their character casts (and sometimes with original/different vocaloid accompany)
  3. (Cover ver) which may come after the song is produced, that is covered by different cast/vocaloid
Another notable example: Songs that are procured in Dancemania and managed to be licensed on old DDR versions. My God, there are like multiple versions of the cut despite it's from the DDR game series.

Having the suffix is not necessary, but it's definitely helpful to determine the song version. Also, isn't the suffix is absolutely necessary, for my case?
Dialect
1,535 posts
Joined May 2018
Dialect
please i hate misrepresenting song titles and i don't want to be forced to not use the short version marker when it clearly is
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
going by what's been discussed in the thread, i think applying what the op intends is a bit too complicated to be worth it for the rc. going to archive, but if a reasonable solution is found, feel free to create another thread proposing it
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