Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks. Whether a hitcircle is partially or completely under a slidertrack, it is confusing for the player to read. Insane difficulties are the only exception to this rule.

Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks. Whether a hitcircle is partially or completely under a slidertrack, it is confusing for the player to read. Insane difficulties are the only exception to this rule.

[Guideline] You should avoid partially or fully obscuring a hitcircle under a slider-track in easier difficulties, because the hitcircle will always be obscured until the slider has run it's course, making for hard to read, and ugly situations. Any exceptions must have a clear and logical path, that is not obscured by any hitburst.

Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.


Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties as it's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot. There can be some exceptions were patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties. Obscuring objects can make them difficult to read. There can be some exceptions where patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

sofawall wrote:

The only problem I have with circles under sliders is playing with HD, especially on a sightread. Without the hitcircles it can sometimes be downright impossible to tell if something is there until you miss it.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties. Obscuring objects can make them difficult to read. There can be some exceptions where patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

Shiro wrote:

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties. Obscuring objects can make them difficult to read. There can be some exceptions where patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

This would be awesome as a guideline. It leaves room for creativity while still not allowing abuse. This leaves controlled overlapping free but limits accidental overlaps and confusing ones.

Insane difficulties are the only exception to this rule.

Kodora wrote:

Why should we delete this? Ability to read maps is a part of skill too, and there are anything wrong with making challenges like this in Insane diffs.

Shiro's wording is good, but i'm sure we need to keep those exception.

Wafu wrote:

So... it would make rankable this beatmap: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/79725
Yeah, that map is fun to play and you need skill to read that map. Problem is that those hidden circles under sliders are not logic (yeah, it's troll map, and troll maps shouldn't be ranked) so as Shiro said, there can be exception only when it has a logic way to play and it's easy to hit the timing of them.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties. Obscuring objects can make them difficult to read. There can be some exceptions where patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

Kodora wrote:

Actually exception what i suggest to add already exist in current ranking criteria.
And this map have a lot of trollish unrankable stuff.
Readability is a part of skill, all stuff in this map can be perfectly readed by approach circles and good eyes :p

Shiro wrote:

Reposting this then:

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties. Obscuring objects can make them difficult to read. There can be some exceptions where patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

The fact it's a guideline would allow for intuitive and readable stuff.

Kodora wrote:

We have approach circles and eyes to read all stuff. Biggest problem here that we have only few people what really pro at reading hidden patterns (like SapphireGhost).
But this is not a point at all to concider hidden hitobjects as "unreadable". Mapping requires common sence, not sure that BATs will approve something absolutely counter-intuitive. There are a lot of really good exceptions from this guideline, there are even more exceptions than abuses. Thats why i asking for adding exception for insane diffs, because in most of cases people abuse this in easiest diffs (they must be perfectly readable for people with low/middle skill level) - for them it would work perfectly.

Wafu wrote:

map is becoming unreadable when there is a hidden circle BUT it also breaks a flow, so it's unexcepted to be there.

Kodora wrote:

Broken flow and hitcircles hidden under slidertracks are two different things btw.

SPOILER

Kodora wrote:

Some short examples what i find in 5 min

Within Temptation - The Unforgiving (In The Middle Of The Night)

Map link - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/172611


you can clearly see approach circle of (3) to read this slider

-flow

daniwellP - Testes broadcast.proj (Challenging)

Map link - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/146255


you can clearly see approach circle of (10) to read this circle

-flow

Nico Nico Douga - U.N. Owen wa Kanojo nanoka? (Nico Mega Mix) (SOLO)

Map link - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27637


three circles hidden under slidertrack, but approaches still visible, and you can clearly see what circle will appears first.

-partically flow

Please tell me how flow here "broken", thanks a lot.

Shiro wrote:

You two take this to PM. You're not discussing the rule anymore.

Regarding the rule, making it into a guideline would allow for exceptions, especially in Insane difficulties, while still warning mappers that it's counter intuitive. This is the whole point of turning it into a guideline.

boat wrote:

If something is unreadable then that's the issue with the map and not the rule. I've seen a few scenarios in which it works well, thus I don't see any reason for why it shouldn't ever be allowed. As little as my opinion probably matters, I'd still much rather have it as just a guideline.

boat wrote:

If something is unreadable then that's the issue with the map and not the rule. I've seen a few scenarios in which it works well, thus I don't see any reason for why it shouldn't ever be allowed. As little as my opinion probably matters, I'd still much rather have it as just a guideline.

Shiro wrote:

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects, especially in easier difficulties. Obscuring objects can make them difficult to read. There can be some exceptions where patterns have a clear and logical path and the timing for these objects can be told easily.

Raging Bull wrote:

I thought people still say it's only a guideline these days.

Sakura wrote:

Hence why i am giving a counter argument.