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Allow alternative name orders

posted
Total Posts
22
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
because Sabaku de is a thing that just happened

Ephemeral wrote:

maybe we need to add something into metadata rules for situations like this, our standards should not interfere with core ordering
Current:

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Official romanisation may be used for the spelling of an artist's name, but the name order must follow the related rule.
Proposed:

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Official romanisation may be used for the spelling of an artist's name, but the name order should follow the related rule unless stated otherwise in multiple prominent sources.
edited as per Ephemeral's reply because it sounds much better

old
i propose the following addition to the allowances section:

Proposal wrote:

If a name order which differs from the Unicode's name order is highly preferred by the artist, it may be used instead.
i'm open to suggestions on how to word this better. this highlighted part will also have to be removed.
Last edited by caps , edited 5 times in total.
Dialect
1,535 posts
Joined May 2018
Dialect
i agree and disagree

for example, using "Zutto Mayonaka de Iinoni" instead of "ZUTOMAYO" for romanization. technically speaking you should use the full name, but most people opt for using "ZUTOMAYO" since they go by that more often. this also kinda clashes with the "be consistent with the previous ranked maps" rule
Last edited by Dialect , edited 1 time in total.
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
this doesn't have much to do with that, though. it only adds an allowance for flipped name order and nothing else. i'd say zutomayo is a different thing altogether and falls into the "translated name" category.

flipped name order as in stuff like:
  1. "Hakushi Hasegawa" instead of "Hasegawa Hakushi"
  2. "Shiena Nishizawa" instead of "Nishizawa Shiena"
it's for stuff where it's quite abundantly clear they prefer their name written out like that.

edit: stuff from community/forums/topics/883238 might be relevant i.e. the rule regarding Unicode artist names ensures consistency in romanisation, researching takes too much effort, etc.
Last edited by caps , edited 7 times in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
falls under community/forums/posts/7087013. this type of standardization purposely factors out some artist preference for benefit of consistency in management & presentation, and I don't see why that compromise wouldn't hold here

if this were to become an allowance, don't make it about "name order" specifically, treat like romanized title except that it would only be changed when "highly preferred" to (hopefully) avoid some of the issues in linked post above. ok that's basically what this would be doing anyway since everything except ordering already works like that. I guess all I'm sayin is to get rid of the specific case wording if it's no longer special.
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
even just removing this phrase might work honestly, since that's what seems to be stopping it from being rankable. just wanted to clarify that it should only really be used when the artists use it literally everywhere (and they specifically mentioned to use it when asked).

i don't really know if making one general rule would be better, since it might be a little confusing lumping it all into one...
Last edited by caps , edited 6 times in total.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Current:

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Official romanisation may be used for the spelling of an artist's name, but the name order must follow the related rule.
Proposed:

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. This includes any potential changes in the order of said name, even where it may conflict with existing standardization practices.
we should not be leaning on our "standardization" practices if they are producing patently incorrect results. "Hakushi Hasegawa" is correct as specified by the artist, Google, Spotify, Soundcloud, Deezer and more - if we were to use this rule unmodified, we would be producing orphaned and incorrect metadata.
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
that does look much better, though i added two words to make sure romanisations still count...

If an artist has provided an official romanisation or translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. This includes any potential changes in the order of said name, even where it may conflict with existing standardization practices.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

Ephemeral wrote:

Current:

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Official romanisation may be used for the spelling of an artist's name, but the name order must follow the related rule.
Proposed:

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. This includes any potential changes in the order of said name, even where it may conflict with existing standardization practices.
we should not be leaning on our "standardization" practices if they are producing patently incorrect results. "Hakushi Hasegawa" is correct as specified by the artist, Google, Spotify, Soundcloud, Deezer and more - if we were to use this rule unmodified, we would be producing orphaned and incorrect metadata.
there should definitely be a difference between it being used somewhere vs. definitively used everywhere as a line for that. cause it has no consideration for obscure romanisations changing name order or anything. which is just as bad for "orphaning" (which isn't even an issue if name order is the only change - google is smarter than that)

>

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Name order should still follow the unicode field, unless it is stated otherwise in multiple prominent sources.
Last edited by Noffy , edited 3 times in total.
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
how about this?

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Official romanisation may be used for the spelling of an artist's name, but the name order should follow the related rule unless stated otherwise in multiple prominent sources.
to not remove the part about official romanisation's spelling being allowed
Last edited by caps , edited 2 times in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
seems fine 2 me, assuming everyone else is on board with dropping S o h's concerns in the other thread when "multiple prominent sources" are available

Ephemeral wrote:

we should not be leaning on our "standardization" practices if they are producing patently incorrect results [...] if we were to use this rule unmodified, we would be producing orphaned and incorrect metadata.
just sayin', there's no such thing as "incorrect results" when concerning standardisation for the sake of it... the whole point is to modify what sources provide so that things are cleaner & easier to understand in context of one platform
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze
100% agree with this, would be a very good change. I always thought the name order standardization being so strict was a bad thing.

Even outside of artists potentially preferring one order over the other, there are plenty of people whose names are traditionally in "surname first" order who are relevant in the in the English-speaking world and way more commonly or straight up exclusively known with reversed name order (not an artist, but an example I can think of is Shigeru Miyamoto). Forcing all such names to be labelled otherwise in metadata is incredibly unintuitive to basically everyone who has heard of such people outside of osu.
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
yeah, on one hand, enforcing Unicode name order reduces the headaches involved with scouring the internet for reversed name order to check which is more common, but on the other, there's stuff out there which is incredibly consistent with their name order being reversed.

hopefully people will only use this allowance when absolutely necessary (i.e. artists mentioned above)

e: there's also the case where multiple names are listed in a single artist field, might get kinda confusing unless the name order is consistent, but it should be fine i guess
Last edited by caps , edited 1 time in total.
Annabel
Beatmap Nominator
565 posts
Joined October 2013
Annabel
something that bothers me about this is that the rom. field would be using a different order from the unicode field. it seems like it would be a better idea to force the unicode field to be changed if the user wanted to use a specific rom. artist order considering that the current rom. rule dictates that we follow the order that the unicode field is in. so having this allowance make both fields different from one another does not seem to line up with what we currently have in place.
AJT
551 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
i agree with OP and i also think that if applicable, this should be able to override the "same order in both fields" rule since if both fields are correct in their respective languages then i think it's fine being inconsistent order-wise
Last edited by AJT , edited 1 time in total.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
shouldn't be a problem to have name order inconsistency, personally i think they should have been like that from the beginning at least for the artists with worldwide recognition like yoko shimomura (who has her name written on twitter in inconsistent order too btw https://twitter.com/midiplex).

support!
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
from this thread and elsewhere seems like most are in support of this, just need someone to edit rules as necessary -- and make sure to look into wording of related rules so that concern like eiri's is addressed
AJT
551 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
can we get rolling with this
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
if i'm interpreting things right, it sounds like the simplest way to do this would be to change...

Artist names are to be romanised in the order they are printed in the unicode fields.
-->

An artist's name is to be romanised in the order it is printed in the unicode field, unless an alternative order for the romanised name is provided by the artist.
"provided by the artist" meaning it comes from one of these sources wiki/en/Beatmap/Primary_metadata_source

---

the rule below (which people here have been offering alternatives for) can stay the same because the above one now handles this thread's issue

If an artist has provided an official translation for their name, this may be used in the romanised artist field. Official romanisation may be used for the spelling of an artist's name, but the name order must follow the related rule.
---

i'll try getting this on the wiki in a few days unless anyone has concerns!
AJT
551 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
sounds good
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
sounds good (2)

don't mind me changing the title again
caps
375 posts
Joined May 2017
Topic Starter
caps
i believe this can be archived now following the merging of https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/6011

🎉
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
yes
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