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[Rule] Mapset should have at least 1 diff below 3 star level

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30
Kurai
osu! Alumni
7,734 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Kurai
[quote="Ranking Criteria":85dd7]there should be at least one difficulty around ~2.5/3 star difficulty level;I think this rule should be amended. Everyone is aware that star rating isn't accurate at all. It's pretty common to see a 3.5 diff that is easier than a 2.5 diff.
Thus instead of forcing mappers to get a < 3.0 diff by hook or by crook, we should let the bubbler and the ranker use their common sense and decide whether the easiest diff is easy enough or not. They can also gather opinions of other community members by asking in #modhelp if they are unsure.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
I think this has been executed for a while already? I had a 3.24 diff on my bubbled map or smth as the modders were k with the difficulty, so you may see this as some sort of agreeing comment.
Kurai
osu! Alumni
7,734 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Kurai
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/74277 This map has been popped beause of this rule.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
What about warped star difficulties?

I've seen a mapset where the [Extra] diff was 3 stars, and the mapper had to lower the OD from OD8 to OD7 to make it 5 stars, which is stupid since OD8 fits much better for an [Extra] diff.

Stars should just be completely abolished. They get in the way of mapping.
Kodora
Kodora
Star rating is so retarded sometimes, proved this by some of my guest maps.

Support this.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Aqo wrote:

What about warped star difficulties?

I've seen a mapset where the [Extra] diff was 3 stars, and the mapper had to lower the OD from OD8 to OD7 to make it 5 stars, which is stupid since OD8 fits much better for an [Extra] diff.

Stars should just be completely abolished. They get in the way of mapping.
This isn't really leading on the Topic here since this Thread is about making the Rule of having a Diff at least with 3.2 Stars more confortable. However no XAT would bubble/rank something with this issue.

On-Topic: Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and.. yes. Especially for the cases where you NEED to map this and this on 1/2 the current Rule is such a flow breaker and makes neat Normal Diffs awfully boring or worse because the Mappers had to remove things to follow with the rule. (Speaking on experience about this)
Sushi
osu! Alumni
2,989 posts
Joined October 2008
Sushi
Yep, the star rating is kinda retarded sometimes, specially for easy diff, specially because of the difficulty difference for a newbie between sliders and circle and the way these two elements affect the star rating.

One thing that could be good, is to put this rule as a guideline, but something like that :
There should be a difficulty which is accessible to everyone, as in new players. An indicator would be a easy/Normal diff with its star difficulty would be around 3 Max.

Or something like that.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
also it depends if the Song gives the possibility to map an Easy. But yeah this Discussion is quite subjective and hard to make everyone satisfied.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Sushi wrote:

An indicator would be a easy/Normal diff with its star difficulty would be around 3 Max.
The whole point of this thread is that star rating is a useless indicator.

Freedom dive 2.5 stars is not a useful indicator for anybody. Common sense > stars.
Sushi
osu! Alumni
2,989 posts
Joined October 2008
Sushi
What I wanted to say, is that people can think of this as a not accurate indicator, but still is an idea of what it's like.
However, common sense > stars , yeah, I know there are several stuff that are broken about this.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
Sure, it can be something handled by XATs.
However, about the map in question, i don't think it's easy enough...
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
^I agree with this.
Also for easier diffs (below 4 stars) I actually find the star rating to be fairly accurate.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Common Sense > Stars yes, but Common sense isn't very common nowadays.

Dunno about the proposed ammendment, but i think there should still be some visual confirmation of it, because relying on common sense would send this rule into subjective territory.
Kurai
osu! Alumni
7,734 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Kurai

Sakura wrote:

Common Sense > Stars yes, but Common sense isn't very common nowadays.

Dunno about the proposed ammendment, but i think there should still be some visual confirmation of it, because relying on common sense would send this rule into subjective territory.
If the staff can't be trusted over this then something is wrong.
-kevincela-
Elite Mapper
2,796 posts
Joined February 2010
-kevincela-

Kurai wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Common Sense > Stars yes, but Common sense isn't very common nowadays.

Dunno about the proposed ammendment, but i think there should still be some visual confirmation of it, because relying on common sense would send this rule into subjective territory.
If the staff can't be trusted over this then something is wrong.
Agree here. MATs and BATs are supposed to be taken from people who have at least a bit of common sense, or they wouldn't have been in the team at all. However I agree with this changement, it shouldn't really be that hard to determinate if a difficulty is easy or not, and it would definitely remove these limits caused by the star rating system, so why not?
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

-kevincela- wrote:

Agree here. MATs and BATs are supposed to be taken from people who have at least a bit of common sense, or they wouldn't have been in the team at all. However I agree with this changement, it shouldn't really be that hard to determinate if a difficulty is easy or not, and it would definitely remove these limits caused by the star rating system, so why not?

Because staff opinions may vary and we get another tons of s.storms in threads of ranked/unranked bubbled/unbubbled maps?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Kurai wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Common Sense > Stars yes, but Common sense isn't very common nowadays.

Dunno about the proposed ammendment, but i think there should still be some visual confirmation of it, because relying on common sense would send this rule into subjective territory.
If the staff can't be trusted over this then something is wrong.
There IS something wrong.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
From what I can tell the idea behind the 3 star rule was to prevent the staff calling something easy when it really wasn't.
3 stars is still a very restrictive amount, and there are many cases where maps that are 3.4 or so are pushed forward anyway.
3 stars was never treated as a hard limit (from what I can tell), so I think it might be best to raise it as few took it seriously.

I think a 3.5 star enforced limit would suffice. Anything over that ends up being quite difficult honestly, and it gives mappers a lot of leeway when creating an Easy or Normal.

So it would be like this, rule is <=3.5, guideline is around 3 stars. I think that'd be a good amount.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour

Charles445 wrote:

From what I can tell the idea behind the 3 star rule was to prevent the staff calling something easy when it really wasn't.
3 stars is still a very restrictive amount, and there are many cases where maps that are 3.4 or so are pushed forward anyway.
3 stars was never treated as a hard limit (from what I can tell), so I think it might be best to raise it as few took it seriously.

I think a 3.5 star enforced limit would suffice. Anything over that ends up being quite difficult honestly, and it gives mappers a lot of leeway when creating an Easy or Normal.

So it would be like this, rule is <=3.5, guideline is around 3 stars. I think that'd be a good amount.
it could be a halfway solution.

personally, i don't like this rules very much because i believe all MAT/BAT know "what is an Easy/Normal diff for newbie players" so that the difficulty/diff spread issues must be addressed before bubble/rank depend on each single cases but not simply a number which is not accurate enough.

I'd like to support that move "3 star rating limit" from rules to guideline.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Kurai wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Common Sense > Stars yes, but Common sense isn't very common nowadays.

Dunno about the proposed ammendment, but i think there should still be some visual confirmation of it, because relying on common sense would send this rule into subjective territory.
If the staff can't be trusted over this then something is wrong.
Says the person who bubbled the map who's normal is too hard. Sorry.

The point in the above statement is to show that a difficulty being too hard or not is subjective. Star rating is an objective approach to it, and nobody has complained about it being "wrong to measure if easy or not" until now.

I am against this rule change because there -will- be subjective arguments in the future on if the map is easy enough or not. Not all staff can agree on one subjective thing, and you should know this by now. I also don't agree with it being a guideline unless somebody can give a map that is over 3 stars yet all staff can agree that it is not too hard for an easiest difficulty. I see no problem with restricting it to 3/3.5 stars and just have staff make sure that there is no difficulty under 3 stars that is still too hard for a normal/easy due to not using easily readable/playable patterns that don't affect the rating.
Last edited by Makar , edited 1 time in total.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Makar wrote:

Kurai wrote:

If the staff can't be trusted over this then something is wrong.
Says the person who bubbled the map who's normal is too hard. Sorry.

The point in the above statement is to show that a difficulty being too hard or not is subjective.
Which is why you as the staff can discuss such specific cases and get to an agreement. And don't act like this would be so incredibly much more work. This would only apply to a small amount of maps and asking for the opinions of 3-4 XATs should suffice usually.
Would be much better than a bugged, not working difficulty ranking.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Zarerion wrote:

Makar wrote:

Says the person who bubbled the map who's normal is too hard. Sorry.

The point in the above statement is to show that a difficulty being too hard or not is subjective.
Which is why you as the staff can discuss such specific cases and get to an agreement. And don't act like this would be so incredibly much more work. This would only apply to a small amount of maps and asking for the opinions of 3-4 XATs should suffice usuall.
Would be much better than a bugged, not working difficulty ranking.
The thing is that these conversations always lead to circles. Not all staff can agree on subjective issues, and "majority vote" is kinda lame considering not all staff can't be here 24/7. Again, I'd like to see a map that is >4 stars that all (or a large majority) of staff will agree it is rankable for an easiest diff. It doesn't take much effort to make it lower and if the rating is above 3/3.5 or there are spread issues then chances are you can make another difficulty lower than that (which I think the mapper should do with the map in the OP).

Makar wrote:

Also for easier diffs (below 4 stars) I actually find the star rating to be fairly accurate.
If there are major "bugs" where something really easy gets a 4 star rating or something really hard gets a 3 star rating then these should be reported and fixed (assuming they are actually bugs like in Aqo's first post)
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
The problen is that if yoy publucize a hard 3.5, then nobody will aim for 3 anymore and try to worm tgeir way out of a 3.6 or something stupud. In general, if your easy diff is hitting 3 stars, its probably just pkaying the metronome and will suck ass anyway. Nirmals that go beyond are probably abusing 1/2 rhythms too often, etc. Its more along the lines that people need ti learn how to construct easier tier maps better and making them fit within the overall spread if the set.

Keepthe limit at 3 and just have modder discretion on maps that exceed the limit.
-kevincela-
Elite Mapper
2,796 posts
Joined February 2010
-kevincela-

Sieg wrote:

-kevincela- wrote:

Agree here. MATs and BATs are supposed to be taken from people who have at least a bit of common sense, or they wouldn't have been in the team at all. However I agree with this changement, it shouldn't really be that hard to determinate if a difficulty is easy or not, and it would definitely remove these limits caused by the star rating system, so why not?

Because staff opinions may vary and we get another tons of s.storms in threads of ranked/unranked bubbled/unbubbled maps?
You miss the fact that MATs/BATs are a team, or at least they should behave like that. If someone's unsure about the effective difficulty/spread of a map, he could just ask other MATs/BATs to take a look at them, and even if everyone has an opinion having more of them doesen't hurt,right? I guess that after some advices it wouldn't be really impossible to make a decision.

Anyways I'd go with Charles' advice, it balances the whole rule in a pretty good way and it would definitely solve the problem here,imho.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Charles445 wrote:

From what I can tell the idea behind the 3 star rule was to prevent the staff calling something easy when it really wasn't.
3 stars is still a very restrictive amount, and there are many cases where maps that are 3.4 or so are pushed forward anyway.
3 stars was never treated as a hard limit (from what I can tell), so I think it might be best to raise it as few took it seriously.

I think a 3.5 star enforced limit would suffice. Anything over that ends up being quite difficult honestly, and it gives mappers a lot of leeway when creating an Easy or Normal.

So it would be like this, rule is <=3.5, guideline is around 3 stars. I think that'd be a good amount.
Considering that the rules say "around" and "about" 2.5/3 stars, taking out the "2.5" part should be enough to make the rule function as you'd wish.

Also, as I'm sure you're aware, that map Kurai linked shows exactly why this rule is needed in some form. That map's too hard for a lowest difficulty level - its rhythms are too weird and certain parts are too difficult. It definitely feels like a 4 star map, too, so its rating is not too inaccurate here.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
While I agree that 3.5 stars is often easy enough I think there should be an incentive to make low starred easy difficulties.

Have we gotten to the point where the easiest difficulty over 3.0 is the norm? I remember this being a rare occurrence not that long ago, but I've been here a long time. Standards have deteriorated since I started mapping.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Garven wrote:

The problen is that if yoy publucize a hard 3.5, then nobody will aim for 3 anymore and try to worm tgeir way out of a 3.6 or something.
I completely agree with this. Maybe you could make the rule 3.5 and a guideline 3.0...?

Also it seems to happen quite a bit that there will be a difficulty that is 3 stars, but the actual difficulty level is too hard for beginner players to be able to play.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Makar wrote:

I completely agree with this. Maybe you could make the rule 3.5 and a guideline 3.0...?
Got it the other way around. Rule 3.0, guideline 3.5, boil it down to common sense.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
You treat the Star Rating like its value is generated randomly.
It might be true, that the star rating behaves tricky from time to time, but usually the 3.0 mark ensures that people map their easiest diff easy enough.
The rating is based on the usage of techniques, that rise the difficulty (more circles, less sliders, SV changes, spacing infringements, syncope hitobject timing, 1/4(8) stuff) to a level that the easiest difficulty shouldn't have anyways.
There are rarely any exceptional cases that show easier diffs with higher ratings than 3.0 which are really easy for NEWCOMERS.

I purpose to leave the rule as it is.
If we start regulating the rule upwards, we just will have another thread in future that requests 4.0 star rating (in case we still have the current star rating system)
If you want to do an easy diff and are skilled, you should be able to drop the rating down to 3.0 and still have an awesome diff
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Seems like this isn't discussed any further. Also it seems like the 3.0 star rating thing is not in place anymore like it was before, anyways. Marking with a flame then.
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