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[Rule Change] Approval Drain Time

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Total Posts
100
Ayu
1,126 posts
Joined December 2011
Topic Starter
Ayu
This has been approved! -> click

Okay, so, this is more of an appeal against this rule.

The 6 minutes are just too much. I've tried to map several songs, but unfortunately they would've all been unrankable due to this rule. Why? it was way over 1000 combo and 18 million score. The problem was that it was only around 4~5 minutes.

I think the rule would be more fit if it would be 5:00 draining time.

Let me just make a little list with "issue's" because of this rule;
- It makes songs unmappable, (example)
- Making more difficulties for a 5 minute song is a real pain in the ass,
- ^ People will ask other people to make a difficulty, but the usual answer will be a no because it's a pain in the ass, this makes it even harder to make more difficulties,
- This will also cause demotivation, if the mapper even makes more difficulties for the sake of making it rankable, it will lead into bad and boring maps, that are just there to fulfill the mapset.
- People can't be arsed to mod a map with a long draining time that's not for approval. You see a lot of modding queue's that even only mod TV Size, or queue's that mod below 4 minute of draining time.

If this rule is made to prevent Lapfox maps or whatever, I'd say it's complete and utter horse.. We're not against the majority of otaku, so why would you guys be against breakcore, mashcore etc?

Anyway, if you got some additions to this post, just reply. If you support, reply. etc etc.
Last edited by Ayu , edited 2 times in total.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Supporting this with my life.
btw "- ^ People will ask other people to make a difficulty, but the usual answer will be a no because it's a pain in the ass, this makes it even harder to make more difficulties"
Just adding that it is hard to find people who likes the song enough to map it. If the song is repetitive it will be even harder.
What's the problem on approving a 5 minutes map if it is great? Making not so good diffs for the sake of ranking isn't a solution either.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
Yes please.
I'd even say 4:30 would be enough for approval.
It's not only about the mapping itself, but about finding modders as well. Try to find some modders for a mapset with >20 minutes total drain time (4 diffs * 5 minutes).
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
This means RLC will have a larger selection to speedrank seek approval since there isn't many t+pazolite songs left above 6:00.

Honestly, though, most of the approval maps now are just difficult, wacky, or 3:30 with a taiko. Not "marathon" as such.
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp
Before this new rule was introduced we got nice maps approved every few days. Now after the change these maps are supposed to go for ranking but I don't see ANY nice 5 minute map ranked in the last time. In other words, before the rule change we had least some interesting map to play. Now I rarely see any.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

Zarerion wrote:

Yes please.
I'd even say 4:30 would be enough for approval.
It's not only about the mapping itself, but about finding modders as well. Try to find some modders for a mapset with >20 minutes total drain time (4 diffs * 5 minutes).
I'd say 4:30 only if the song is repetitive and stuff but yeah
Most people refuses to mod mapsets with long songs. Ayu, add that to your post pls
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Um, there is no limit on score for the ranked category anymore.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
Can kinda approve of this - Force of Wind would be impossible to rank if I did not cut it, which I find sort of sad as that resulted in dumping my original diff.
Similar for Story of the End, though luckily I found people for that.

In short: It's very hard to find mods/XAT for long maps and I think, depending on the song and the map, approval should be possible for 4:30+ min songtime.
Last edited by Jenny , edited 1 time in total.
Ayu
1,126 posts
Joined December 2011
Topic Starter
Ayu

Garven wrote:

Um, there is no limit on score for the ranked category anymore.
The rules are still there, though.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Ayu wrote:

The rules are still there, though.
Where? The only rules that are currently active are on the wiki.
You can find it here: https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria for general rules, https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Standard_Ranking_Criteria for standard specific rules.

Ayu wrote:

Let me just make a little list with "issue's" because of this rule;
- It makes songs unmappable, (example)
- Making more difficulties for a 5 minute song is a real pain in the ass,
- ^ People will ask other people to make a difficulty, but the usual answer will be a no because it's a pain in the ass, this makes it even harder to make more difficulties,
- This will also cause demotivation, if the mapper even makes more difficulties for the sake of making it rankable, it will lead into bad and boring maps, that are just there to fulfill the mapset.
- People can't be arsed to mod a map with a long draining time that's not for approval. You see a lot of modding queue's that even only mod TV Size, or queue's that mod below 4 minute of draining time.
I am just going to comment on some of these. Everything is mappable, you were probably looking at the wrong rules (damn we need to clean the forums up).
More diffs for a 5 min song may be pain in the ass, but nobody is forcing you. You don't have to get your map ranked. People care about ranking maps too much nowadays. It's cool to get it ranked eventually but that shouldn't be your goal when mapping.
I don't see how it's harder to get guest diffs for that, because the song length doesn't change.
As for demotivation, that's only because people who care about ranking maps only have to work for it. Believe me, once you stop caring about getting maps ranked, there will be plenty of motivation, even that much that you will complete mapsets on a whim.
And finally, for mods, you can always ask people to mod one diff, or you can also get a lot of ingame feedback from testplaying. There are times where testplaying maps can give you better feedback than mods, in my opinion.

Just what I think, I know people disagree with me a lot on those.
Starz0r
197 posts
Joined March 2012
Starz0r
I still say the 4:30 drain time for approval is good.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
One more thing, approval doesn't mean you need to have only one diff. You can still map a few diffs. Approval is for really long stuff, 4:30 isn't that long. One 4:30 long thing is like 3 diffs of a TV Size, pretty much.
Seph
Seph
I thought if its reasonably hard (aka "special case") even though its not marathon length it can be approved, as it says on the new approval guideline?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes


:p
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp

lolcubes wrote:

More diffs for a 5 min song may be pain in the ass, but nobody is forcing you. You don't have to get your map ranked. People care about ranking maps too much nowadays. It's cool to get it ranked eventually but that shouldn't be your goal when mapping.
I don't care about my own maps getting ranked, but I care about certain songs getting ranked. It's so hard to get long songs ranked, that's why we see so many japanese TV Size songs. osu! should encourage many different music genres but other artists just don't stand a chance here.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
You can always contribute and help the mapper with mapping. RLC got pretender ranked in 5 days or something. So it's not that hard, you just have to work for it.
Seph
Seph

lolcubes wrote:



:p
eh?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
As I said, check the wiki. The wiki will always have updated rules. That thread will get sorted out, it's really old (10 months ago). It used to be like that but there is no real criteria for "special", because everyone thinks their work is special. It just doesn't work as intended.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The exception is for gimmick maps like ziin's Osuka

And seriously stop being lazy, 5 minutes isn't a lot, and there are a lot more songs that are unmappable due to the nature of the song (not the length), so not everything needs to be mappable :P
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Don't call the mappers lazy
half of the modqueues say "will not mod longer than x minutes"
x often being 3 or 4

I don't get the idea of forcing mappers to add half assed diffs that nobody cares about to their maps, you gain NOTHING from doing this.
having a rule of requiring low diffs was good back a few years ago when there weren't a lot of maps and beginners needed something to start with, but today there's already a huge abundance of lowdiffs. we definitely don't /NEED/ more of them.

why can't a map simply be ranked based on being a good map. Give ONE reason why lowdiffs are needed

Right now all the ranking rules do is send maps like this into graveyard and prevent them from having any chance to get ranked.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
So the new players can enjoy the song as well. I thought that was pretty obvious.

I will edit my post too, then.

Aqo wrote:

Right now all the ranking rules do is send maps like this into graveyard and prevent them from having any chance to get ranked.
No, they don't. Mapper not willing to map more does.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
That logic doesn't make sense lolcubes
in order for them to enjoy the song, they need to have a good map for it, right?

If some mapper wants to make a good map for it, they will do it anyway. Even if one mapset already exists for a song, it's possible to create another one. Mapper A can create a map for song X with only an [Extra] diff, and later on Mapper B will create another mapset for song X with ES/NM/HD.

At the same time, not all songs have a map, so even if somebody wants to enjoy playing a song, nobody guarantees he will have a map for it.
All you get from the current state is LESS, not MORE.



Examples:

1.
Song X has no ranked map: People who want to play this song on the ranking can't.

2.
Song X has a ranked map with full diff set. Everybody can enjoy it.

3.
Song X has only a lowdiff mapset: People who want to play this song on lowdiffs get what they want, people who want to enjoy this song on a high diff can't. Why aren't mappers forced to map high diffs? You're neglecting a part of the player base, making them unable to enjoy songs they like.

4.
Song X has only a high diff mapset: People who want to enjoy this song on lowdiffs can't, but people who want to enjoy it on a highdiff can.

5.
Song X has only a high diff mapset, but it's unrankable: Nobody can enjoy this song.

The current rules does not turn 4 into 2, it turns 4 into 5. You don't /gain/ anything, you only lose from it.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
There is a pretty easy solution what you described here. The person who maps more becomes the host of the mapset, and then person who mapped one diff throws it as a guest diff. Such a thing already happened, check Saten's Wahrheit. Although that did fall under the old approval category, but it's quite possible to map more for that song (Mafiamaster did at least).
Another good example is meiikyuu's The Creator.

Just because the lesser majority (let's face it, there is less above average players than below average, it's just that people don't care about those people) wants their stuff, doesn't mean other guys should get shut down. This works both ways. Else you could have easy+normal mapped and just call it a day.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
So, just like you described now, Saten made a map for Wahrheit but Mafia can still go and make another map later.

Tell me then, why can't mappers right now rank only a high diff? This doesn't prevent mappers from creating new lowdiffs LATER ON in a NEW MAPSET.
This rule doesn't speed up the process of low diffs being created, it slows down the process of high diffs getting ranked.


Time scale:
[High Diff Creation] = 1
[Low Diff Creation] = 2
[High Diff Ranking] = 1R
[Low Diff Ranking] = 2R

Current situation:
-----1-----2
-----------1R2R

If we got rid of the lowdiffs rule:
-----1-----2
-----1R---2R
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
then halfassed easy-hard difficulties should be unrankable, so people actually start making better non-insanes.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Because you are blind to one fact. And that is if someone does not need to make something, he will not. If you remove the spread rule, what will happen is that you will only have 1 diff mapsets from now on, and the 1% of people who actually care about whole mapsets will continue mapping the rest.

Also enough of off-topic. This is about the 6min draining time rule for approval. Not one diff mapsets. Approval does not mean you can only have one diff.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

lolcubes wrote:

Because you are blind to one fact. And that is if someone does not need to make something, he will not. If you remove the spread rule, what will happen is that you will only have 1 diff mapsets from now on, and the 1% of people who actually care about whole mapsets will continue mapping the rest.
Except you're wrong, you're again ignoring the fact that the majority of this community are NOT people who play those high diffs and nor they are people who MAP them. People make lowdiffs without being forced to.

This -is- related to approval. Previously, approval allowed mappers to bring to attention high diff maps.
This was GOOD.
It led to a ton of great maps getting ranked

Just Awake
Dragons
nature of dying
boot
Wonderful World
Shiroi yuki

wide range of different maps, some harder, some easier, but all fun maps that a large part of the playerbase enjoys
and yet had the current rules been in place, those maps will most likely never have been ranked.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Aqo wrote:

Except you're wrong, you're again ignoring the fact that the majority of this community are NOT people who play those high diffs and nor they are people who MAP them. People make lowdiffs without being forced to.
By mapping one insane diff, and then mapping a random lower diff just so the mapset is rankable because they get 854 guest diffs?
Please.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Guest diffs don't grow on trees.
Unless you're mapping a popular song like anime ops or touhou or miku or a few specific songs that happen to be popular you're basically fucked.

Good luck finding guest diffs to a song like this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/60311
And yeah good luck mapping lowdiffs that don't suck for it.

You're applying a general case for situations where it simply doesn't work. Approval existed for a good reason, not every song needs lowdiffs. By abolishing the old approval and creating this new marathon 6min approval you're basically killed a ton of maps.
Nobody gains anything from this. There is not a single beginner who is happy that they get to enjoy a lowdiff for Nisemono, instead of only get songs that never get a ranked map.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Aqo wrote:

Guest diffs don't grow on trees.
Just because you ignore all the tvsize and short version maps doesn't mean they are not there. Open your eyes please.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Do I need to repeat myself? It is exactly BECAUSE they are TV size ops that they get guest diffs.
There is a HUGE difference between trying to rank a 1:30 minute anime op and a 2:30-4:00 minute technical song where a single difficulty has more objects in it than an entire TV OP mapset.

Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.

Tell me, why are mapsets not forced to have IN/EX in their spread? Why is ES/NM enough for rank? Now THAT'S laziness.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
There is absolutely no difference when trying to rank a map. The only issue is getting decent mods if the song is long.

Aqo wrote:

Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.
Explain how is not lazy to not map the full spread. Until I get an explanation that will convince me, I will not change my mind.

If you want my honest opinion on the matter, I would say that everyone who maps only one diff and then wants this rule changed is very selfish. Why? Because instead of doing things to get the map ranked, they want the whole world to adapt to their work. The world does not work this way. Deal with it.

Also ES+NM is not enough for rank. Please stop talking nonsense.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

lolcubes wrote:

Also ES+NM is not enough for rank. Please stop talking nonsense.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/75938

my bad, NM/HD

ok really, I want to understand
you can seriously call this not lazy http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70484 (entire mapset, 241 objects, two diffs, RANKABLE!?)
and yet at the same time say somebody who wants to rank a 3 minute EX with 1200 objects is lazy?
just wow

And if we go by this,
"if your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be insane"
that's the dumbest thing ever
NM/HD is fine but EX/EX isn't? SORRY WHAT

lolcubes wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.
Explain how is not lazy to not map the full spread. Until I get an explanation that will convince me, I will not change my mind.
Let me state something and I hope you'll agree with me.
Laziness is relative.
It is always possible to put more effort into a mapset. Even if it has 7 diffs, you can make an 8th one. Add an SB, a skin, taikos, etc. There is no level for absolute perfection for amount of effort to be put into a mapset.
Because of this, whether somebody is lazy or not should always be compared to someone else.

The longer a song is, the harder it is to make a full map for it that doesn't become repetitive and boring. This requires extra effort.
A 3 minute map is not twice harder to map than a 1:30 minute map, it's at least 4 times as hard.
Lower diffs are pretty straightforward, you can loosely follow the song's metronome tick with beats and snap everything into distance snap. This requires very little effort to do, and results in a rankable lowdiff. I won't call it good, but it's rankable.

People who map EX diffs tend to not be contempt with rankable, and they actually try to make the best map ever, a map that will have replay value. This requires thinking about original patterns, and yet a ton of thinking about design and flow to make them work right, this is a ton of extra effort compared to mapping a lowdiff.
When those people are told to make a lowdiff, they have a problem.
Either make it half assed, the same as lowdiffs that really do get ranked, but that's just disgusting.
Or make it a high quality map yet a lowdiff one, which is a ton of extra padded effort, on top of ALREADY HAVING DONE MORE than other maps that FOR SOME REASON ARE ALLOWED TO GET RANKED.

Is it laziness? no.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Rokk
133 posts
Joined September 2012
Rokk
Why is approval now exclusive to Marathon maps only? I thought the entire point of Approval was a category for good maps that didn't quite fit the ranking criteria, like amount of difficulties.

IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Aqo wrote:

Tell me, why are mapsets not forced to have IN/EX in their spread? Why is ES/NM enough for rank? Now THAT'S laziness.
Because for the simple but very smart reason because there is no Insane needed. Or the person itself isn't good at mapping Insanes? And then he/she ask someone to do the Insane Diff which means that the person is still 'lazy' because the person isn't able to do a good Insane.

Aqo wrote:

NM/HD is fine but EX/EX isn't? SORRY WHAT
Because if the Map is purposed for the normal ranked Mode you need a lower Diff for not-so-good-Player.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
I'll be fine with the current rules if all maps were forced to have a full EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX spread, and anything below that was unrankable.
Right now the rules are highly supporting of NM/HD, which is MAXIMUM LAZINESS, and being unfair to everybody else.

Except an EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX for a 1:30 minute low bpm song is still less than 5th of the work compared to a 3 minute high bpm EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX song.
Want mappers to not be lazy? Force a rule that mapsets need to have at least 2000 objects across their spread in total, or else they're unrankable.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Aqo wrote:

I'll be fine with the current rules if all maps were forced to have a full EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX spread, and anything below that was unrankable.
Right now the rules are highly supporting of NM/HD, which is MAXIMUM LAZINESS, and being unfair to everybody else.
You're really thinking that everyone is able to do these Diff Spreads, not? ;D

It's not your choice if Mapsets with Normal/Hard should be ranked or not, so stop force yourself as something like the "Chooser".
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Stefan wrote:

It's not your choice if Mapsets with Normal/Hard should be ranked or not, so stop force yourself as something like the "Chooser".
Why are NM/HD rankable

but IN/EX or EX/EX not?

What makes the first one better for rank?

Sorry but let me be very blunt,
Your statement is just stupid as hell.

If EX mappers are forced to make NM diffs that they don't want to, then NM mappers should be forced to make EX diffs as well. Why is one side, which is the lazy one by default, allowed to be lazy, while the hardworking side is forced to work even harder?
We don't need a "Chooser", make it the same for everyone. Why is one side getting special treatment.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Aqo wrote:

Stefan wrote:

It's not your choice if Mapsets with Normal/Hard should be ranked or not, so stop force yourself as something like the "Chooser".
Why are NM/HD rankable

but IN/EX or EX/EX not?

Stefan wrote:

Because if the Map is purposed for the normal ranked Mode you need a lower Diff for not-so-good-Player.
Hi.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Stefan wrote:

Stefan wrote:

Because if the Map is purposed for the normal ranked Mode you need a lower Diff for not-so-good-Player.
Hi.
Says who?

if the map is "purposed" for the normal ranked mode you need a higher diff for adept-long-time-Player.

There, I can throw statements too. It's not any different.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Aqo wrote:

if the map is "purposed" for the normal ranked mode you need a higher diff for adept-long-time-Player.
...wow. So people aren't able to take HR or DT in the Hard Diff?

Sorry but what are you trying to do here? To force people to make more Diffs? Because Two-Diff-Mapsets are half-assed and made without effort?
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Stefan wrote:

Sorry but what are you trying to do here? To force people to make more Diffs?
Oh god I fell on the floor laughing

/thread
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
can't stop laughing.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Teraku wrote:

Why is approval now exclusive to Marathon maps only? I thought the entire point of Approval was a category for good maps that didn't quite fit the ranking criteria, like amount of difficulties.

IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
fact is, almost no 1-diff-insane-map is "special" or "gimmicky". they are just normal insanes or extras, and because it's always possible to make an easy diff, those maps are not rankable nor approveable.

mapping only one diff shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should think about a whole diffspread, not only an insane or extra. if you're not willing to map a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank and stop bitching about it. maps don't need to be ranked to be enjoyed. ranks have the purpose of spreading the map to the wider public. if there is no diffspread, then the majority of the playerbase won't find any enjoyment in it.

for the other problem of boring easies/normals: mappers have to learn how to make these. an easy or normal diff should be mapped in a way that it leads towards the hard, which leads towards the insane. in an optimal case, the diffs in a mapset give you the same feeling. if the insane had a jumpy feeling, then the easy should feel jumpy in comparison too.

tl;dr: don't argue every single rule just because your mapset or a mapset you like is affected by it in a negative way. don't try to change the rules, but try to change your approach towards things.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44481 yeeee he is totally a laziaaaass because he made only two diffs but we don't care about the Storyboard because people are disable SBs because they can't play with them.

Sad but Ai's Map is the same case.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
what Aqo is trying to say is that it is unfair. If EX mappers have to make low diffs, low-diff mappers should make EX diffs too.
if this full mapset thing is a rule IT SHOULD BE REALLY A FULL MAPSET. Not only lowdiffs.
Anyways, the topic is about approving songs under 6:00 draintime, not about difficulty spread.
edit: IT IS TOTALLY OK mapping easier diffs for the mapset, the problem is MAPPING THEM WHEN THE SONG IS LONG/REPETITIVE and TO GET MODS FOR IT.
Stay on topic please.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Tanzklaue wrote:

mapping only one diff shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should think about a whole diffspread, not only an insane or extra. if you're not willing to map a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank and stop bitching about it. maps don't need to be ranked to be enjoyed. ranks have the purpose of spreading the map to the wider public. if there is no diffspread, then the majority of the playerbase won't find any enjoyment in it.
mapping two-three lowdiffs for a cut version of a song to make it shorter shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should map the full version of the song, and think about a whole spread, not only a normal or hard. if you're not willing to map a full song and with a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank.

oh wait.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 2 times in total.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

[Luanny] wrote:

what Aqo is trying to say is that it is unfair. If EX mappers have to make low diffs, low-diff mappers should make EX diffs too.
Everyone is allowed to ask other people for lower Diffs? Because for this that the person takes care to get lower Diffs (whether Guest Diff or your own Diff) you cannot call this lazy. If you do then please think about it twice.

[Luanny] wrote:

if this full mapset thing is a rule IT SHOULD BE REALLY A FULL MAPSET. Not only lowdiffs.
Cool how Hard Diffs are low now.

[Luanny] wrote:

Anyways, the topic is about approving songs under 6:00 draintime, not about difficulty spread.
I wanted to clear my statement what I think about Aqo's mind. Oh, and I didn't started this discussion about Diff Spreads.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Just to make something clear, there is a reason this topic exists and keeps coming up

previous approval system was fine

this new one isn't

6 minute limit is wrong, but the solution isn't to make the limit shorter, it's to change the core of the ranking system

which is downright flawed at the moment and is heavily unfair to mappers. Not only that this stops mappers from even trying to rank their maps, it stops them from making certain maps to begin with, because they know they'll have no chance of getting it ranked.

I'd rather see one full-song 4/5-diff spread for an anime op song (the full version of the song, that is), instead of five mapsets for the TV size of that song with only 3 diffs per mapset that all play pretty much the exact same.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

Aqo wrote:

Just to make something clear, there is a reason this topic exists and keeps coming up

previous approval system was fine

this new one isn't

6 minute limit is wrong, but the solution isn't to make the limit shorter, it's to change the core of the ranking system

which is downright flawed at the moment
oh, now I understand the main discussion
at this point, you're right
but I don't think we can reach this lol
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
the 6 minute approval rule created a mindset in mappers that "the longer the song you pick is, the less likely you are to rank it".
This isn't an illusion. it's truth and everybody knows it.

Having rules like this in place leads mappers to be lazy and make lower quality maps.

"people won't do stuff unless you force them"
ha.
like communism, it's cute in theory but doesn't work in practice.

What you wanted: People will start mapping more diffs for their 3 minute songs! yay!
Reality: People start mapping 1:30 minute songs instead of 3 minute ones! or they omit high diffs for long songs! yy....NAY!

If lolcubes returns to this thread, I'd like him to explain why did he choose to map the full song of Hades the Rise https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33911 back in 2011, and yet he mapped doukoku in 2013 as a short ver https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71200
and why is destudo https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46349 which is a very good IN/EX that could be ranked months ago graveyarded now instead?

coincidence?

and then you have the nerve to call others lazy?

nothing against you man but be real on this. the current rules do no good. they don't give players more diffs, they take away potential diffs from getting ranked and discourage mappers from putting effort into creating great maps.

and YES all of this is ON TOPIC. The 6 minute rule is the core of the problem.
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[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
about the "you shouldn't map only because you want more ranked maps"
some players just IGNORE pending/grave maps
only caring about the ranked ones
if I map something, I want it to be enjoyed
if I want people to enjoy my map I will want to rank it
it's simple like this
if I want to map something only for myself I won't ever submit it and problem solved
I think it's not the case for the majority of the mappers
Ayu
1,126 posts
Joined December 2011
Topic Starter
Ayu
It seems that people lack knowledge of feelings.

It's simple, the reason why I care about getting my maps ranked, is because it gives an extra feel of satisfaction, I can watch how people are enjoying it and on top of that, that even MORE people will enjoy it. Graveyarded maps will never be found as 95% of osu is just browsing trough the ranked maps.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
^EXACTLY this
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

mapping only one diff shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should think about a whole diffspread, not only an insane or extra. if you're not willing to map a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank and stop bitching about it. maps don't need to be ranked to be enjoyed. ranks have the purpose of spreading the map to the wider public. if there is no diffspread, then the majority of the playerbase won't find any enjoyment in it.
mapping two-three lowdiffs for a cut version of a song to make it shorter shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should map the full version of the song, and think about a whole spread, not only a normal or hard. if you're not willing to map a full song and with a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank.

oh wait.
you didn't had to color them, I am not stupid.

N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.

so, the majority now maps easier diffs. now some people want to rank maps without easier diffs. the staff again defined a border of 6 minutes. if your song is longer than that, then you don't need to make easier diffs, because it would be a lot of work for mappers and modders alike. however, it's still prefered if you map easier diffs despite it being more annoying and more tedious to rank.

if your song is under this border, which was defined previously, you have to map easier diffs. even if you're one second under this border, you have to do it. this makes sure that -again- most maps will have easier diffs in there spread, so new players don't have to suffer.

so why aren't you forced to map harder difficulties? well, the hardest diff of a map normally is what is the maximum the mapper could get out of the song both difficultywise and qualitywise. if this diff happens to be a normal, then this is fine. forcing a mapper to map a harder diff than that will most likely end in a bad diff which is just an overmapped version of the previously hardest diff. on the other hand, making easier diffs should be always possible if the lowest diff in your mapset happens to be an insane.

I hope this is understandable. like I said, rules are there to make things controlled. they are the most objective standards we have, and following them should be the least thing somebody should expect for a rank. which doesn't mean that rankability is everything, but it is the least you have to have.
Starz0r
197 posts
Joined March 2012
Starz0r
Admins/BATs don't understand that most mappers aren't lazy. We all want to make maps and rank them but this 6 minute time for approval is bullshit. I don't want to be forced to make diffs for a song that is 5 minutes long. Most people don't even accept modding songs for draining time over 5 minutes. Approval should be made for people who are making creative and very extreme maps. Not maps that are 6 minutes and over in drain time, its pointless. This rule has no point, it does nothing but limit the freedom of mappers in where all mappers should be free to make what they want. Something the BATs and Admins have been falling down on, most people have forced themselves to map Japanese usually (TV Sized) or (Short Ver.) maps because they don't want to deal with trying to map something over 6 minutes, something that may not get approved because like I said before, most people won't mod something that long. RLC's The Pretender map is a special case. He has pro players test the map in secret, he had BATs and MATs closely watch it and help him get it approved. Not all BATs and MATs want to be involved in something like that all the time because then they would have requests for mods and help for speed ranking all the time. The approval system is already broken enough, adding this shitty rule on top of it is not doing it anymore justice than it was before.

Just my 0.02 cents.

TL;DR: Approval system is already broken, lets not break it more.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Tanzklaue wrote:

N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
it doesn't make sense

new players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play.
By the time they'll play less than 300 of those they'll already be good enough to start playing higher diffs
Meanwhile the long-time players, who are not just come-and-go players that stay for a month and quit, are being neglected and don't get the maps they want to compete on ranked.
The whole ranking system exists for competition and the most competitive players are being neglected. what.

it doesn't make sense at all.

When I was a beginner, seeing approved maps for songs that I liked motivated me to try harder to play better. I wasn't sad that they lack a lowdiff, I was happy that such great maps exist, and their existence pushed me to play more.

The recent best map of 2012 voting proved that most people's favorite maps are the hardest ones. Even that less than 300 people can play freedom dive and less than 3000 people can play mythologia, those maps were far on top of the rankings. What does this tell us? People WANT those maps. People LOVE them and they don't care about the absence of lowdiffs on them.
I personally know a ton of beginner players who love playing mythologia with nofail, way more than they like playing random [Normal]s.

People rather have one amazing memorable map than 5 average maps that are forgettable a week after getting ranked.

And the amount of those memorable maps has been on decline ever since the approval rules changed.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 3 times in total.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Aqo I love you
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp
Aqo, I love you. I have excatly the same opinion on this matter like you, but you can explain it so much better. Thank you for doing this! <3

Edit: lol, Luanny
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
"hey let's make a rule where users have to suffer to rank long maps, however if they try to, we will say it's their fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

BAT logic at its best.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Aqo wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
it doesn't make sense Yup, for you. Because every damn person need to have the same sight as you. And this is really annoying.

new players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play. What a retarded argument.
By the time they'll play less than 300 of those they'll already be good enough to start playing higher diffs And you think 300 must be always for everyone fine? Oh I forgot, you're telling how YOU are see that.
Meanwhile the long-time players, who are not just come-and-go players that stay for a month and quit, are being neglected and don't get the maps they want to compete on ranked. Then these people could learn to map their own stuff or to offer themselves as Guest Mapper.
The whole ranking system exists for competition and the most competitive players are being neglected. what.

it doesn't make sense at all. It does.. but yeah you know.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
LOOOOOL
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
it doesn't make sense

new players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play.
By the time they'll play less than 300 of those they'll already be good enough to start playing higher diffs
Meanwhile the long-time players, who are not just come-and-go players that stay for a month and quit, are being neglected and don't get the maps they want to compete on ranked.
The whole ranking system exists for competition and the most competitive players are being neglected. what.

it doesn't make sense at all.
experienced players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play from. nobody has played every single one of them.

let's stop ranking new maps until everybody played every map that was ranked until now, or else the competition is heavily flawed.

also the people neglecting the most competitive players are the mappers who refuse to make their maps rankable. this starts with refusing to make easier diffs and goes on with never accepting anything any modder ever says because "it's my map, not yours, and I don't want to change it, fuck you kthxbye". tbut that is off topic.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
The problem isn't exactly mapping, it's getting mods. BATs like to blame mappers for something they're not faulty of, which is gathering mods for long songs. NO ONE wants to mod a 4-diff 5 minute map, and that's just stupid.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Tanzklaue wrote:

experienced players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play from. nobody has played every single one of them.
Nah, like Aqo cares about this Fact.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Aqo wrote:

If lolcubes returns to this thread, I'd like him to explain why did he choose to map the full song of Hades the Rise https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33911 back in 2011, and yet he mapped doukoku in 2013 as a short ver https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71200
and why is destudo https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46349 which is a very good IN/EX that could be ranked months ago graveyarded now instead?

coincidence?

and then you have the nerve to call others lazy?

nothing against you man but be real on this. the current rules do no good. they don't give players more diffs, they take away potential diffs from getting ranked and discourage mappers from putting effort into creating great maps.

and YES all of this is ON TOPIC. The 6 minute rule is the core of the problem.
Wow, a personal attack. Great job there. I will ignore this actually because I just dunno what to say. For those really interested, feel free to ask me, however I will not respond here because it's offtopic.

Aqo wrote:

The recent best map of 2012 voting proved that most people's favorite maps are the hardest ones. Even that less than 300 people can play freedom dive and less than 3000 people can play mythologia, those maps were far on top of the rankings. What does this tell us? People WANT those maps. People LOVE them and they don't care about the absence of lowdiffs on them.
Wow if you can't find the flaw here then I really dunno what to say. This will be my last post in this thread. You are very good at creating bandwagons, so I guess good luck with this, because your points aren't really valid.

Blue Dragon wrote:

The problem isn't exactly mapping, it's getting mods. BATs like to blame mappers for something they're not faulty of, which is gathering mods for long songs. NO ONE wants to mod a 4-diff 5 minute map, and that's just stupid.
I am not blaming the mappers for not getting mods on their maps, I am blaming them for not mapping their maps. There is a difference. I do agree that it's very hard to get mods, but that's another problem, and that problem will not go away sadly. The only reliable way that I know of, to get mods on such maps, is to actually use #modreqs often, and ask a lot of people to playtest your map and post their opinions and results in the thread. Techincal aspects such as timing, metadata, and other technical stuff are usually unified in all diffs so that makes such things easier.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Tanzklaue wrote:

experienced players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play from. nobody has played every single one of them.
There are less than 100 truly challenging maps that are ranked.
I've played every single one of them.
So has any single player who plays this game and enjoys those maps.
You always see the same names in the top 400 of those maps. It's not some hidden truth.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Teraku wrote:

Why is approval now exclusive to Marathon maps only? I thought the entire point of Approval was a category for good maps that didn't quite fit the ranking criteria, like amount of difficulties.

IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
Why did this post get ignored?

I also love how no one told this, BATs just said so and now it's true!
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