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using "osu!" for FA map source

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18
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton

Ranking Criteria wrote:

osu! may be used as a source for osu!'s Featured Artist content.
using "osu!" as a source for FA songs seems rly misleading to me because the songs are not "from osu!" in any sense, besides osu! exclusives. it also doesn't do anything useful as it's not required, and you are already required to tag FA maps with "featured artist"

my proposal is to delete this sentence
DeletedUser_6709840
DeletedUser_6709840
this doesn't make sense to me because if the songs are licensed for osu, why is it an issue? They're technically osu songs at that point UNLESS there is a previous source for the song before being licensed for osu
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton
if nonexclusive licensing is reason enough to add something to a Source field, you could also add company names who used songs in ads, tv shows and games that used the song but had nothing to do with its popularity, anything else along these lines. also keep in mind that osu!'s licensing goals are to backtrack and license as much of previously ranked maps as they can, so your argument may eventually allow "osu!" to be a source for most maps, which just doesn't feel right to me at least cuz osu! is the game we're playing and the whole point is map whatever music u want

I'm not saying "osu!" should never be a source. I just think the current rules cover it fine and there's no reason to mention "osu!" as a special case where all types of licensing implies it's a good idea to use it as a source.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I believe that statement exists so that BN can't argue that osu! cannot be used as a source. As you said, sometimes it's fine to list osu! as a source, but some can argue that it is never fine.

On the other hand "osu! may be used as a source" can be interpreted as allowing "osu!" to be an override for any feature artist song. In that case, perhaps you are onto something.

It should be worded such that it allows to use osu! as a source, but not when there is a better source to list.
Last edited by abraker , edited 5 times in total.
Uniform
281 posts
Joined July 2019
Uniform
But then you shouldn't put other games for the source of songs from other rhythm games.
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,089 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
there is no judgement about "better" sources to use - any valid source can be used (see songs in a plethora of rhythm games, theoretically "best" source is the original game they're in?) - as abraker mentions, it's just because there was initially some resistance to using osu! in source instead of some other random game it is used in, so it was explicity allowed.
roufou
966 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou
I complained about the fact that I think it's really weird to set "osu!" as source for songs that aren't truly "from" osu! and I still think it's silly and misleading. I find it to be a little dishonest to make it seem like the song was made for osu! when it was initially made for a different source.

It's not necessarily a big deal to me, but I find the decision questionable. Though it seems like the people in charge disagree, so I won't bother dying on that hill.

edit: I will also admit that making osu! not be a valid source or whatever for certain songs can make sourcing a little more complicated, so I can see an argument there. If you can't use any source then what is the correct source? To most it would be the first thing the song was licensed in probably. But that would lead to some strange cases wherein the song is mostly known from x game but maybe it was used in y game before that.

edit2: though I think one problem with the idea of putting osu! as the source for FA maps could in theory undermine sources for the song that weren't necessarily licensed. Which I don't exactly like the idea of. Assuming the song was just made for a game that isn't commercial or something. (this would be an unlikely case though)
Last edited by roufou , edited 3 times in total.
honne
151 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
not rly reading into this too much but i think abraker's response makes sense given we have some actual osu exclusive tracks however i think this proposal is pretty reasonable given the source field is for the source material's origin given it comes from a different game/series or whatever.

currently seems inappropriate if the song was not made an "osu! exclusive". Perhaps a rewording of the current rule would be nice.
Zelzatter Zero
3,962 posts
Joined October 2016
Zelzatter Zero
If you want to enforce this to osu, do that to other rhythm games as well. For example, HDHR by BilliumMoto is featured in Dynamix but it's osu!exclusive, then the source must be "osu!" instead of Dynamix if you want to do that way. Same thing goes to other RGs as well, especially songs that are used in collaboration.
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
Currently, the source field is acceptable as long as its got a multiple source. As a BN checking maps, I’d say it’s adding some unnecessary workload because it’s really confusing to track where the true origin of a song belongs to. If a song is features in multiple rhythm games like Dynamix, osu!, Arcaea, Sound Voltex etc, it’s pretty complicated to know for which game the song was composed exclusively. I don’t think osu! should be an exception for this rule.

Also I’d also like to say setting “osu!” as a source isn’t misleading as multiple featured artist maps actually gets bundled from the initial installation of the client which makes osu! a real source. It’d be very weird to see bundled maps with official licensing having another rhythm game as a source. That would rather be completely misleading and lower the professionality of this game in my opinion.
Cynplytholowazy
363 posts
Joined January 2014
Cynplytholowazy
You must use the Source field if the song comes from or is directly tied to another media such as a video game, movie, series, etc.

"If the song was featured or tied to a media after it was released, the source field is optional. "

These 2 implies if the song is tied to a game you may use osu! as source, cuz it's technically tied to the osu! game.

As for the "the song is from other place" thing tho, I would honestly suggest not allowing osu! in source at all if it directly ties to another game and osu! licensed it later, say for example, Dynamix / SOUND VOLTEX etc. That would solve "the songs are not from osu!" problem.

Sonnyc wrote:

As a BN checking maps, I’d say it’s adding some unnecessary workload because it’s really confusing to track where the true origin of a song belongs to.
imo that's a necessary job as a BN

Sonnyc wrote:

If a song is features in multiple rhythm games like Dynamix, osu!, Arcaea, Sound Voltex etc, it’s pretty complicated to know for which game the song was composed exclusively.
People can use the first released game as the source. In fact, if it is directly tied to a game at first, that game should be used in the source, even if osu! licensed it later.

Sonnyc wrote:

It’d be very weird to see bundled maps with official licensing having another rhythm game as a source.
It's weirder if it originally comes from another game and osu! licensed it later, and it becomes bundled. Other people may think osu! is stealing the credit, and it doesn't help with the professionality either.
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc

Cynplytholowazy wrote:

You must use the Source field if the song comes from or is directly tied to another media such as a video game, movie, series, etc.

"If the song was featured or tied to a media after it was released, the source field is optional. "

These 2 implies if the song is tied to a game you may use osu! as source, cuz it's technically tied to the osu! game.
This statement basically makes a perfect logic why "osu!" should be an acceptable source for licensed songs. I don't really understand why rhythm game songs should be an exception for that rule as long as osu! got the official license.

Is it okay to use "Dynamix" in the source for an "Arcaea" original song, while not okay to use "osu!" in the source? That makes the ranking criteria overcomplicated and inconsistent with how other sources are treated. That's not really fair for me.

Cynplytholowazy wrote:

It's weirder if it originally comes from another game and osu! licensed it later, and it becomes bundled. Other people may think osu! is stealing the credit, and it doesn't help with the professionality either.
Why is a bundled map with a proper licensing being sourced as "osu!" stealing the credit? Just like how rhythm game musics are shared between multiple platforms, osu! is just one of those rhythm gaming platform. Those songs also belong to osu! as well as other rhythm games.

The current ranking criteria is already very lenient in how people can handle according to their own preference, not really sure why we should make the ranking criteria more restricting.

+) Seems the main reason for the proposal is because setting "osu!" for the source is misleading. My opinion with that is licensed songs are actually osu! musics and are not misleading to set "osu!" for the source.
Last edited by Sonnyc , edited 1 time in total.
Niva
Global Moderator
3,187 posts
Joined November 2009
Niva
((saw a discussion in Twitter earlier that is in a way related to this))

personally i'm in favor of disallowing "osu" in the Source field for non-exclusive osu! contents i think, but only if this suggestion http://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/3777 ever gets implemented in the future :



the extra visibility for officially licensed contents would solve the potential problem of mappers misleadingly labeling "osu!" as the Source to every FA maps out there i guess... for the time being however i'm more than alright with how things are.
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton
that's a "when", not "if". I'd support removing the osu! source for non-exclusives right now on the basis that they're already tied to FA with the required tag, and will have better support in future ofc

I still don't understand the other argument in this thread about licensing. what does licensing have to do with anything? can I buy a usage license for any song I want and get away with adding "CL8N'S AWESOME WASTE OF MONEY" as the source?
realy0_
1,731 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_
just only giving my opinion on this

I mainly agree with the proposal because most of the licensed songs from fa are already released before the artist's inclusion in fa for osu, especially for songs that are already coming from an another source (Touhou, Arcaea, Dynamix etc...)
This makes that adding osu! to sources takes the full credits which isn't really true as I mostly believe that osu! fa songs aren't making those featured music that popular as it wouldn't have that much of a impact outside osu!.

There are many cases to consider (and those cases doesn't mean the proposal is not fine at all) :

1) songs that were released before the artist's inclusion in fa on osu : obv that it shouldn't have "osu!" as source.
2) songs that were featured in a another video game before the artist's inclusion in fa on osu : "osu!" shouldn't be able to overwrite the older video game sources. obv that it's not osu! that makes those songs popular.
3) songs that are exclusively releasing for osu! : "osu!" should be a source, regardless if it was featured later for other video games.
4)

Sonnyc wrote:

Is it okay to use "Dynamix" in the source for an "Arcaea" original song, while not okay to use "osu!" in the source? That makes the ranking criteria overcomplicated and inconsistent with how other sources are treated. That's not really fair for me.
osu! is a different case as seen above, in case the exact same song could be tied to multiple sources, it is up to the mapper as osu! doesn't support multiple sources currently with preference of source that made that song track famous.
I also don't see how this is already overcompicated as this seems straightforward to deal with.
fiscia
64 posts
Joined October 2019
fiscia
I haven't read the other posts but I have heard talk about this for a while. My stance is that osu! should be a source even if they are not exclusive osu! songs because we take other unoriginal songs from other rhythm games (songs that have been in other rhythm games) and we put the source in field. My point is that the song doesn't have to be made for osu! to warrant the source as many other examples have happened with other rhythm game songs being ranked in osu!
Zelzatter Zero
3,962 posts
Joined October 2016
Zelzatter Zero
Also I think we need to consider songs that aren't originally made for osu! nor other rhythm game but still licensed for both. (望影の方舟Six by Se-U-Ra is the polar example, where it's featured in both osu! and Phigros but neither of them is the song originally made for, or Rugie by Feryquitous with Arcaea)

@h o n e y, this proposal is made to consider those instances. It happended, yes, but that doesn't mean it should be kept that way as licensing in this game is now taken way more seriously than ever before.

IMO, I think "osu!" should NOT be used as source unless it's actually osu!exclusive. We have respected that with other rhythm games by how we consider what we should put in Source field (You can't put any random rhythm games for songs like Fracture Ray and Grievous Lady in Source field except Arcaea despite also being licensed for not just that game), so why can't we do the same for this?
Last edited by Zelzatter Zero , edited 1 time in total.
gothicwvlff
327 posts
Joined July 2020
gothicwvlff
i dont have a stance im just gonna do what the ranking criteria says
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