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Allow the Community to Vote on Ranking Rules

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Topic Starter
Aqo
I'm bringing this topic up since this is a major issue lately.
Everything in this game revolves around maps. The maps ARE the game. The ranking process is supposed to support quality map creation and ensure that players get the best maps possible to play on.

However, right now there are rules that restrict map creation, and lower the quality of maps. Those rules need to be changed, and the active community who actually *plays the maps* should have a word on the matter.

For example, there is a rule that "an entire mapset has to use one tick rate". This rule, makes, no sense, at all. In nearly every single mapset EVER the most fitting tick rate for ES/NM diffs is 1 and for HD/IN/EX diffs it's 2. Why the hell does this restrictive rule exist? It serves no value and lowers the quality of maps.

Another rule is that mapsets with only one difficulty cannot be ranked, and a diff spread is required. The theory behind this rule is very good - to allow everybody to play their favorite songs regardless of their ability level as a player - in reality this rule is very BAD. As it stands right now, an ES/NM/HD spread for a TV-size 1:30 minute song is rankable, while a 5 minute stream map with complex 1/4 patterns isn't. The latter between those two takes about 10x the amount of time and effort to create and mod, and by forcing mappers to add lowdiffs to rank it you're basically discouraging mappers for trying to rank maps like that AT ALL since it will take nearly a year with how things work right now, especially considering most modders don't want to mod long maps. ( = no stars = no kd = no nothing. pending forever -> grave)

It's true that the vast majority of this game's community can barely play HD diffs, however they already have OVER 7000 maps with lowdiffs to play on with a huge selection of songs. Not adding lowdiffs for a song like freedom dive doesn't neglect anybody, since frankly there are very few people who would like to play that song on a lowdiff (chances are, even if somebody is a low level player and likes the song, he'd rather play the main map with NF than play a lowdiff that maps 7/8 of the song into long sliders). By forcing mappers to add lowdiffs for ranking, you're neglecting the part of the community in osu who play for challenging maps and not for songs - making it impossible for mappers to rank those types of maps makes them lose motivation in mapping them; it also means the mappers won't ever have pending slots to upload maps on since they can't rank anything.

What this thread boils down to is - the community should have a word on ranking rules. Right now, in practice, many of them do more harm than help, but people can't say anything because they know their opinion would be ignored. If they were large polls on such matters, you might see the opinions of many players on critical issues which would affect those rules.

EVERY single player that plays osu should have an opinion about map ranking rules, since those dictate what maps most mappers would want to create, and everybody who plays this game does it by playing maps.

Discuss.
JappyBabes
If players can vote you'll have shitmaps like Lolita Complex being ranked. nothx
Topic Starter
Aqo

JappyBabes wrote:

If players can vote you'll have shitmaps like Lolita Complex being ranked. nothx
If you don't like the map you don't have to play it.
For players who do enjoy the map, it would be great to have it ranked, since it would spur competition on rankings for it, as well as give more pending slots to the mappers who made it which would allow them to create more maps like that in the future. (in this specific case, Star Stream doesn't need more pending slots :b but this is a big issue with many other mappers)

There is also the fact that more than one map per song can be ranked. AND nearly all mapsets today are entirely made of guest diffs. So what's the problem with ranking them one by one? Let the mapper who made a certain diff rank that one diff, and if somebody else feels he also likes that song and wants a lower or a higher diff for it then he can make it and rank it too. This would give mappers a lot more freedom and provide everybody with more interesting maps that are relevant to their interests.
kriers
no thanks
JappyBabes
it trivializes the ranking system. popularity = the map becomes 'official' is a terrible idea. going back to lolita complex, the entirety of that map looks completely random as if no thought went in to making it and notes were placed to increase difficulty. whether it's fun or not means nothing. it's a BAD map and should stay in graveyard.
Topic Starter
Aqo
You're saying "no" without providing a reason. Why?
If you have no good reason then don't bother posting at all.

As it stands right now, a minority of people select rules that greatly restrict mapping freedom and prevent the creation or existence of certain maps outside of eternal graveyard or a mere concept inside a mapper's head that he'll never bother to implement since he knows it has no chance of getting ranked. This doesn't do anything good, I only see downsides in this. If you disagree, please explain why.

JappyBabes wrote:

it trivializes the ranking system. popularity = the map becomes 'official' is a terrible idea. going back to lolita complex, the entirety of that map looks completely random as if no thought went in to making it and notes were placed to increase difficulty. whether it's fun or not means nothing. it's a BAD map and should stay in graveyard.
this is, like, entirely your opinion, man.
This is exactly why we need community votes instead of having a minority decide things. This game is supposed to be fun for everybody, not just for X people who happen to be in the right group.
xsrsbsns
I'm with Jappy on this
Topic Starter
Aqo

Aqo wrote:

please explain why.
What gives you the right to call a map bad when it's timed correctly and many players find it fun to play. Besides this is not even the point of this discussion, this is about whether the community should have a word on ranking standards as a whole, not about whether certain maps should get ranked.
ryza
basically what aqo is saying:

pls reverse the approval change kthx

which needs to happen
JappyBabes
we already explained why, you just replied with, that's your own opinion so i'm just going to say my opinion again because i think it's correct. there's also an issue of mappers getting free ranked maps because of who they are. people already get annoyed at andrea being able to get his maps ranked because of who he is, how do you think it will turn out when 0108 or S.S will be able to submit a map STRAIGHT to rankings.
xsrsbsns

Aqo wrote:

this is about whether the community should have a word on ranking standards as a whole, not about whether certain maps should get ranked.
This is already possible.
If you think certain rules are dumb (yes, many are) then go and make threads about those rules.

Edit: tbh I forgot was it only staff but I've seen rules/opinions/changes being posted somewhere
Topic Starter
Aqo

JappyBabes wrote:

people already get annoyed at andrea being able to get his maps ranked because of who he is, how do you think it will turn out when 0108 or S.S will be able to submit a map STRAIGHT to rankings.
I don't see the problem?

Nobody is annoyed at Andrea ranking maps. People are annoyed at the fact that /other people can't rank maps like that/.
thelewa

kriers wrote:

no thanks
Topic Starter
Aqo

xsrsbsns wrote:

If you think certain rules are dumb (yes, many are) then go and make threads about those rules.
Doing this without acknowledgement from the ranking team to community opinions would lead to no changes. You can talk about all you want in GD but in order for it to actually have an effect you need recognition from the people who are in power to make the changes.

Also, for everybody derailing this thread by simply saying "no", don't even bother posting if you don't provide a reason.
kriers

Aqo wrote:

You're saying "no" without providing a reason. Why?
If you have no good reason then don't bother posting at all.
Just because you can be bothered to make a whole paragraph about your opinions doesn't make your more credible. What you're saying is that pretty much anyone can make a map ranked so long as >players< approve of it and that's going to somehow take away the general favouritism AND make maps better because OBVIOUSLY it's better to trust the judgement of those who have no experience at all.

I'm saying no without providing a reason, because arguing with an idiot who doesn't even try to understand the ranking criteria seems like a waste of time to me.
Topic Starter
Aqo

kriers wrote:

Just because you can be bothered to make a whole paragraph about your opinions doesn't make your more credible. What you're saying is that pretty much anyone can make a map ranked so long as >players< approve of it and that's going to somehow take away the general favouritism AND make maps better because OBVIOUSLY it's better to trust the judgement of those who have no experience at all.
It seems like you failed to read my post. I'm not suggesting to give the community the power to rank maps, I'm suggestion to give the community the power to discuss ranking criteria in a meaningful way. i.e. if a lot of the community wants one-diff challenging maps (such as the old approved), make them rankable. This doesn't mean that specific maps of this type would instantly get ranked. They'll still need to go through the ranking process just like any other map.

kriers wrote:

I'm saying no without providing a reason, because arguing with an idiot who doesn't even try to understand the ranking criteria seems like a waste of time to me.
way to go kriers. really.
Frostmourne
alright , I hope I can discuss with this too

there are some weak spots should be mentioned , I will try to point some out

For example, there is a rule that "an entire mapset has to use one tick rate". This rule, makes, no sense, at all. In nearly every single mapset EVER the most fitting tick rate for ES/NM diffs is 1 and for HD/IN/EX diffs it's 2. Why the hell does this restrictive rule exist? It serves no value and lowers the quality of maps.
This can be solved using a silence hitsound to mute it as well. It will be noticed by good modders when it's in progress of modding
The rest will be left to the mappers who are willing and hard-working to add "green line" to mute them themselves


Another rule is that mapsets with only one difficulty cannot be ranked, and a diff spread is required. The theory behind this rule is very good - to allow everybody to play their favorite songs regardless of their ability level as a player - in reality this rule is very BAD. As it stands right now, an ES/NM/HD spread for a TV-size 1:30 minute song is rankable, while a 5 minute stream map with complex 1/4 patterns isn't. The latter between those two takes about 10x the amount of time and effort to create and mod, and by forcing mappers to add lowdiffs to rank it you're basically discouraging mappers for trying to rank maps like that AT ALL since it will take nearly a year with how things work right now, especially considering most modders don't want to mod long maps. ( = no stars = no kd = no nothing. pending forever -> grave)
I hope I don't misunderstand this.
You might forget to point out "only maps, which have the draining time more than xx min"
What will happen is you will see TV-Size maps with 1.00-2.00 mins with only "Insane diff" get ranked easily and it will become messy eventually.
imagine when you see 10 maps with only one diff in http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist&s=4&r=0
how they do look like ? , will older mappers feel when they see something like that ?

EVERY single player that plays osu should have an opinion about map ranking rules, since those dictate what maps most mappers would want to create, and everybody who plays this game does it by playing maps.
This has the weakness point as well. You will see new coming spammed IDs vote for the single map or single mapper as well.

EDIT:

basically what aqo is saying:

pls reverse the approval change kthx

which needs to happen
this is the logic I got after I have read the whole post.

I support for only this actually
Sieg

kriers wrote:

no thanks
Topic Starter
Aqo
Thanks for the constructive response Frostmourne.

Frostmourne wrote:

This can be solved using a silence hitsound to mute it as well. It will be noticed by good modders when it's in progress of modding
The rest will be left to the mappers who are willing and hard-working to add "green line" to mute them themselves
This in essence is just cheating the system, and using tickrate2 on a map but then using green lines to make it like tickrate1. why not just allow to have tickrate1 normally (while using TR2 for other maps in the mapset). Is there any good reason for this restriction?

Frostmourne wrote:

I hope I don't misunderstand this.
You might forget to point out "only maps, which have the draining time more than xx min"
What will happen is you will see TV-Size maps with 1.00-2.00 mins with only "Insane diff" get ranked easily and it will become messy eventually.
imagine when you see 10 maps with only one diff in http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist&s=4&r=0
how they do look like ? , will older mappers feel when they see something like that ?
You're right that moderation is needed on this. That's why there is a team of map approval where humans make decisions based on the situation. My point was that right now, a 5 minute map with 1000+ objects is unrankable in nature. It's basically "all-or-nothing" with the marathon length rule. Why is 6 minutes fine but 5 not? Why not replace this hard limit with a per-map case. i.e. if you're making a 2 minute map, map approvers might tell you "well this needs more diffs, it's too short right now", but if you make a Rhapsody stream map that required a month of playtesting and fine tuning for playability they'll be able to go with "ok this looks good for rank" and not with "nope the song is 30 seconds too short, you should spend 3 months making more diffs for this and then a whole year trying to get enough people to mod this mapset".

Frostmourne wrote:

This has the weakness point as well. You will see new coming spammed IDs vote for the single map or single mapper as well.
I don't understand what you mean? Please explain D:
Tanzklaue
without reading much:

most people in the community don't know jackshit about mapping and modding. giving them the right to just publish and vote for or against new ranking criteria is just stupid.

the ranking criteria exist so you can't just do random shit and get it ranked. they are the quality standards of osu, and quality standards don't change for the thing they standardize, but the thing they standardize change so they fit the standards. if people map against those standards and refuse to change their maps, then they have to deal with the fact that their map won't be ranked.
JappyBabes

Tanzklaue wrote:

most people in the community don't know jackshit about mapping and modding. giving them the right to just publish and vote for or against new ranking criteria is just stupid.
but i want 20 gangnam style mapsets xD
Sieg

Aqo wrote:

You're right that moderation is needed on this. That's why there is a team of map approval where humans make decisions based on the situation. My point was that right now, a 5 minute map with 1000+ objects is unrankable in nature. It's basically "all-or-nothing" with the marathon length rule. Why is 6 minutes fine but 5 not? Why not replace this hard limit with a per-map case. i.e. if you're making a 2 minute map, map approvers might tell you "well this needs more diffs, it's too short right now", but if you make a Rhapsody stream map that required a month of playtesting and fine tuning for playability they'll be able to go with "ok this looks good for rank" and not with "nope the song is 30 seconds too short, you should spend 4 months making more diffs for this".
Hard, Normal and Easy level players want to enjoy 5min maps too. They part of community too, why you want to drop them off?
ryza
@Sieg

There are two problems with that:

many mappers don't enjoy mapping long easy diffs, and most modders will not mod maps that long

it's just a huge pain in the ass to get maps that long ranked if you need a proper difficulty spread
kriers
I apologize for any misunderstanding from my part. However I don't trust people without experience on this matter. It's like, you are trying to find a way to remove the ranking/approval criterias because you don't understand them, instead of trying to find out why they are there.
buny
just play the map regardless if ranked or not
Tanzklaue

Silynn wrote:

@Sieg

There are two problems with that:

many mappers don't enjoy mapping long easy diffs, and most modders will not mod maps that long

it's just a huge pain in the ass to get maps that long ranked if you need a proper difficulty spread
so?

if the mapper just wants quick ranks, then he can map short maps of popular songs. mapping for quick ranks is the wrong approach to mapping anyway, you should do everything to make a map enjoyable for everyone, even if it takes long to get a map ranked under those circumstances.
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