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Revert the CTB movement formula change [invalid]

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +74
Topic Starter
VelperK
Most experienced CTB players will find the new hyperdash speed to be very hard to adapt to, since it seems like all the luck required to hit the 'pixeljumps' is now required to control the hyperdashes. I mean, now if I go and try some TAG4, only luck will tell if I'll be able to aim the Ryuuta perfectly when it's in hyperdash status. This is a regressive change and I suggest to fix the formula of these special fruits back to the way it was.

Basically, I tried to hit my directional keys, ( <- / -> ) the same way I did with some TAG4 maps like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/58064?m=2, and it controlled horribly compared to the old hyperdash method of slowing down under the next fruit. If you want to improve the mapping possibilities of CtB, you're doing it the wrong way.

P.S. I totally agree about fixing the hyperdash-not-always-spawning bug, but please try to do just that and not change other gameplay aspects.
Last Remnant_old
Before this fix, the hyperdash canceled when you reached the fruit with the edge of your catcher, doesn't it now cancel when center of your catcher is right under it?
119410501
I have this http://puu.sh/1LKkh since months and don't understand why.
But i totally agree and support this.
MillhioreF
While I don't agree with this fully, the general consensus among CTB players is that 2 or more hyperfruit in a row where you change direction is abnormally hard to catch now.


Most other hyperfruit patterns work well enough, but this one only gives about 1 or 2 frames of leeway. It'd be nice to have the old formula apply for direction-changing fruits like these, but I don't know how easy it is to check for them, and even if you could it'd probably be a clunky if-case.

@Last Remnant: The hyperdash no longer cancels at all - it's changed so now if you hold the direction the whole time, you'll catch the fruit exactly in the center of your plate. This makes sudden direction changes harsher.
MillhioreF
Bumping because of something eldnl said in the other thread:

eldnl wrote:

what about keep the change of the hyperdashes only for between-sliders jumps, and restore the old hyperdashes for everyting else?
If this could happen, that would be great. Most CTB players I've talked to would prefer the old movement formula to be kept and just tweaked a little bit so the slowdown effect starts at the same time as before, but under the center of the next fruit (speeding up ryuuta could probably accomplish this)

The speed change is only to allow the catcher to be centered for the next hyper and allow it to catch droplets, right? With some tweaks, it should only be required on hypersliders, which I think would be fine. A lot of CTB maps use hyperfruit in very difficult patterns, and they're almost uncatchable now - but mappers could just put long, fast sliders instead if they wanted to have very timing-precise jumps.
Shadow Fear
about pixeljumps: 1.very hard to catch
2.Sometimes impossible
3.Really made my playcount increased by tenfold
4.why need make pixeljumps where everyone always complaining about it..

==
Drafura

VelperK wrote:

If you want to improve the mapping possibilities of CtB, you're doing it the wrong way.
All my thoughts in a sentence.
119410501
All this is just embarrassing. It's unbelievable to me how something so worse than pointless like this new formula must stay in CTB even if the old hdash speed was awesome and able to catch every hyperdash fruit, even the almost unreadable Utage TAG4 beginning part (which is the proof it was a perfect speed formula and the best one for humans, and VelperK and ExGon are the living proofs).
If the greatest players are complaining, it's not because they're not good enough, but because it sucks for real, for some reasons that you, peppy, probably don't understand because of not being a CTB pro or simply a CTB player.
Kitsunemimi
Hmmm, either you guys are all doing it wrong, or I haven't played the new hyperdashes for long enough, because they don't seem that bad for me. Yeah, they are kinda awkward, and they take getting used to, but I feel that I'm still managing okay with them. Like, okay, I can't really get the really hard jumps that I used to get, but it doesn't seem like using these new hyperdashes would make it much harder either. Even the back/forth jumps don't seem to be that bad, and it's definitely more than a frame or two of leniency on those (either that or I'm hitting the edges of the screen, so I haven't actually experienced what you were talking about).

However, if everyone wants the old hyperdashes, then I'm totally fine with that too, because there was this sort of nice, snapping-into-place feeling with the old hyperdashes. Except I do want the funky new hypersliders to stay. It used to be so stupid having to let certain sliders zip by just because they were impossible.
Topic Starter
VelperK

Kitsunemimi wrote:

Hmmm, either you guys are all doing it wrong, or I haven't played the new hyperdashes for long enough, because they don't seem that bad for me. Yeah, they are kinda awkward, and they take getting used to, but I feel that I'm still managing okay with them. Like, okay, I can't really get the really hard jumps that I used to get, but it doesn't seem like using these new hyperdashes would make it much harder either. Even the back/forth jumps don't seem to be that bad, and it's definitely more than a frame or two of leniency on those (either that or I'm hitting the edges of the screen, so I haven't actually experienced what you were talking about).

However, if everyone wants the old hyperdashes, then I'm totally fine with that too, because there was this sort of nice, snapping-into-place feeling with the old hyperdashes. Except I do want the funky new hypersliders to stay. It used to be so stupid having to let certain sliders zip by just because they were impossible.
It is practically impossible to hit the corners-jumps in maps like Team Nenokan - Airman with this change, and not because people lack of skill to do them, but because peppy made them unbelievable harder than they were before. I can't even comprehend why this stupid change was made.
Lally
support à.à/°
Kitsunemimi
...Well, if Lally says so, then I'll support it too :<
MillhioreF
I've kinda grown on the new CTB movements, but there are certain patterns that are now undeniably much harder because of them. I look forward to seeing if/how players adapt to it once it goes public. I wonder why it hasn't yet, actually.
Kitsunemimi

MillhioreF wrote:

I look forward to seeing if/how players adapt to it once it goes public. I wonder why it hasn't yet, actually.
Because it's game changing, and people may dislike it, and refuse to play with the new changes, or even make a request to change it back. Which is precisely what happened here. To be honest, this thread is simply a form of feedback. If there's going to be a time to change the movement back, or fix it in some way, then that time is now, and it comes in the form of this thread.

I know I said earlier in the thread that I don't really mind the change, but I have a feeling that shit's going to go down in the CtB community if these changes become official, especially with the next CtBwc looming around the corner.
119410501
CTBwc is ruined already with this.
Seph
CWC will be luck based by then \:D/
Drafura
I want to explain my point of view about the impact on CtB mapping after testing the system more seriously.

First with enough time to adapt it is possible to do some moves like 1/4 hypers changing directions during or before hyper status (like this @AR10 screen or this @AR9 screen) but even with enough experience I seriously doubt it will be possible to catch them more than 2-3 times in a row. So if a lot of these kind of patterns are encountered in a map, the amount of playcount required to FC a map would be very high and frustrating. So in term of mapping these kind of patterns would be a bad idea if you want your map enjoyable. Even if the pattern fits perfectly you'll have to change it and use another pattern, borring or less fitting with the part of the song. This is due to the instability of the ryuuta when going hyperdash'd. (This is a first approach on making interesting things to play on CtB mapping.)

Talking about the difficulty of CtB, lot of players consider it as the easiest mode. But those players quite never focus on FCing challenging maps so they just don't get the real difficulty of CtB. A little error in CtB leads you to a miss (or even a fail) in other gamemodes you'll get a 50/100 and if you're really that bad you'll finally get a miss wich breaks your combo, I actually find easier getting SS on many insanes std maps than catching some particular jumps in CtB, and I think all experienced players in both modes can confirm that. (This is a second approach on making interesting things to play on CtB mapping.)

I started CtB around one year ago and at this moment the trend of CtB maps was Kuzinos maps, they naturally became a kind of reference into my head (most older players use zhsteven's maps as reference). Kuzino maps use specific hyperdash'd patterns with high spacing (like this) wich are actually well balanced in term of difficulty, they are not designed to require an awesome timing, they're designed to require an awesome reading of the map. (This is a third approach on making interesting things to play on CtB mapping.)

Those three approach makes CtB mapping a unique style of mapping. It calls different skills of a players :
1) Ability to read fast patterns with a good timing (In the update : The instability of the hyperdash make this kind of patterns impossible to map, it will require too much timing and this isn't the point of this kind of patterns).
2) Ability to get a very good timing in some patterns (This update removes some timed jump and I think this is a plus in CtB modding since XAT are actually having an hard time to determine jump difficulty, this solve the problem).
3) Ability to read high spaced hyperdash'd patterns (In the update : They're incredibly hard to catch if you got more than 3 hypers of this kind in a row. Mapping this kind of pattern would be a bad idea).

I'm not telling all those examples are supposed to be rankable, I'm telling that all those examples are enjoyed by players looking for something more challenging than std maps converted to ctb. CtB doesn't need to be harder to play, mappers allready knows how to make hard things in CtB. CtB mapping/modding requires a non bugged mode.

19:28 peppy: are you seriously calling ctb too hard?
Set a maximum mouvement speed of cursor for std, replace 50/100 by misses. You have what looks like CtB in std mode. Easy ? Tell me.

19:32 peppy: you can make tighter patterns now
No, the only thing I can do in mapping with this update is to play with the timing skill of the player. The update actually removes the possibility on playing on the two others points mentionned in my post.

19:32 peppy: if this makes you give up ctb mapping then i approve
You don't have to implement this to make me give up ctb mapping. Just ask me directly.

Feel free to print this post and use it in your toilet, or simply read it and try to understand my worries about this update.
TheVileOne
IMO the changes should go live. There's no point trying to complain about what CTB players are not going to like. If the change happens and they dislike it, it can be changed. It's not like it affects the possibility of the maps. Of course if this is why the change hasn't gone live, I do not think changing the behaviour of the hyperdash is worth it.

peppy if you're secretly devising a solution, it would avoid a LOT of uproar, and would be worth it. I mean there's no sense fixing something to break another thing.
Kuro
Won't reverting it send it back to where you started in its broken state?
Kitsunemimi

Kuro wrote:

Won't reverting it send it back to where you started in its broken state?
People are saying it's better that way than the way it is now.
MillhioreF
peppy changed the movement somewhat to stop movement inaccuracies as well as fix hyperdash placement calculations and make slider droplets catchable. It's looking very unlikely he'll change it back, but we'll see. Generally he doesn't listen to most complaining, negative feedback within a week or so after releasing something (because most people adjust to it by then), and it hasn't even been released yet, so let's just hold on and see what happens for the moment.
Topic Starter
VelperK

MillhioreF wrote:

peppy changed the movement somewhat to stop movement inaccuracies as well as fix hyperdash placement calculations and make slider droplets catchable. It's looking very unlikely he'll change it back, but we'll see. Generally he doesn't listen to most complaining, negative feedback within a week or so after releasing something (because most people adjust to it by then), and it hasn't even been released yet, so let's just hold on and see what happens for the moment.
He didn't a good job with that.

at all
MillhioreF
No, he did, the movement is perfectly precise and accurate now. That's why it's harder and arguably worse - you have to be perfectly precise in turning around to catch some patterns where there was leeway before.
peppy
As I mentioned in relevant places, the lenience for turning around at pivot chained hyperfruits is the same as a 300g on standard osu!. I will add one more frame of lenience and see how that sits for now. Also to put things into perspective, the previous hyperdash speed and selection was a very bugged rushed implementation. All I've done here is spend a lot of time analysing how it should work optimally. Please avoid calling changes "stupid" and instead provide specific cases which you believe to be less favourable than previously.

Feel free to use the actual tech support thread rather than making feature requests to rollback things not even implemented.
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