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[added] Separate Mania Keycounts Ranks for the Health of Tournaments

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +9,847
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Crustbell
omg yes please, it just needs to be lederboards/rankings as well no splitting of gamemodes or anything. it'd be so encouraging for so many People to branch out to other keymodes With seperate pp gain for different keymodes.

also be cool if there was a leader Board for 4-9k induvidually and then a 'total' tab which could resemble what the current leaderboards look like. omg bro
doughno

peppy wrote:

  1. APIv1 breaking updates (systems accessing via "osu!mania" would break) (1 day)
On the API front I don't think this has to be a breaking change.

Currently the internal IDs for gamemodes go like this:
  1. 0 - osu!
  2. 1 - taiko
  3. 2 - ctb
  4. 3 - mania
This could be extended pretty easily to
  1. 0 - osu!
  2. 1 - taiko
  3. 2 - ctb
  4. 3 - mania (all keymodes combined)
  5. 4 - mania (only 4k)
  6. 5 - mania (only 5k)
  7. 6 - mania (only 6k)
  8. 7 - mania (only 7k)
  9. 8 - mania (only 8k)
  10. 9 - mania (only 9k)
Of course this depends on whether per key rankings are planned as an extension to the current ranking modes or as a replacement for them, but done like this everything that doesn't support separated rankings would still work.

Also shameless plug, but my site has keymode separated pp calculation and an experimental global ranking page for every keymode.
LeMarcinho
people would like some actual useful updates imo, so support this
spamblock
this would be very nice, we really *just* want lb to start with
Zephyte
supporting this as well, visual separation in the web as stated multiple times before would be more than enough till lazer is ready and enable actual 7k tournaments to happen for certain rank ranges without being unfair as well
Cra Dow
EDIT (by moderator): Quotes removed by cleanup.
EDIT 2 (by me): Since the comments of the people which I quoted were deleted the 1st paragraph of my comment is a bit out of context, so keep that in mind while reading:

Lets keep this chat civilized... Saying mean stuff will only make people hate you and not listen to you, if you don't have anything productive or useful to add to the current chat rather not write at all. YOU ARE ONLY MAKING THINGS HARDER TO EVERYONE ELSE THAT REALLY IS OPEN AND TRYIES TO GIVE IDEAS THAT MIGHT WORK.

Lazer is working out great, now you even have rates, wave form for variable bpm timing (I actually already timed a map wich has irregular bpm with osu!lazer's editor), support for legacy skins, and many more, some stuff still needs to be fixed of course (like in every work in progress project), this is a big project and osu! dev team is limited to a few people. If you ever seen how much testing and rechecking it takes to just fix an issue, watch peppy's dev stream at least once (thou do not write bs in the chat).
doughno

Connormgs wrote:

why can't he just straight up say he doesn't care about mania instead of leading everyone on with the ~mountains of work~ the changes would take.
I really don't want to be the one to say this, but ppy is mostly right on this one.

It really is a hard to implement change into the current system as far as I know. Separating scores between gamemodes currently is really easy: just look at the beatmap and it will have the gamemode stored as a property. To make keymode separated ranking possible, you need to look at the following things: for ranked mania maps, the keymode depends on the CS property of the map, and for converts, idk what the keymode depends on by default, but it might depend on selected mods, which deasn't happen currently with any gamemode detection. Depending on how things work on the backend currently it could reasonably take weeks to do. And this is only the backend.

On the frontend, you have to figure out how to display this to users, and that can also take a really long time. It might go in a submenu, or in a more accessible place, but either way it requires a lot of exclusive work that won't help the game in any other way.

This is pretty hard to justify for a gamemode that only a fraction of the community even cares about.
-mint-
So who's the one who linked this thread to Etterna Online




Thank you Walter
blizzo
WE NEED THIS!
WalterToro
Hi people,

A reminder to be civil and keep the topic of the discussion, if you want to support (or not) this request is your choice, but please dont derail this thread as you can see is very important to the actual o!m community.

Hope something can be built up from this.
Bakuretsue
Supporting this not only for the sake of tournaments, but various other reasons as well!
Punnies
yes yes, please.
Lights
Something that i'd like to point out in regards to the whole "mountains of work" thing:

I get that going back and changing hardcoded systems is a pain, backwards compatibility is important, balance between game modes, etc.

But heres the perspective I look at osu!mania from. I'm a 4key player, not an osu! player, I will play the best 4key client made available to me with no real attachment to one just off of name alone. Whichever client provides the best suite of features will be what I elect to go with, end of story. The other two clients i play 4key on both provide 4key specific leaderboards whereas osu!mania does not. And regardless of the reason why osu! is unable to provide this at the moment, the fact of the matter is that it doesn't. Ultimately, as a player, I'm going to go where the best support for my gamemode is. I'm not interested in excuses. If 4key isn't important enough to the osu! project to warrant all that work, its understandable. But in the meantime, I'm going to play a client that does what I'm looking for, not osu!mania in the hopes that someday it'll be able to stand up to the competition.

Not that im under any illusion that my individual player-ship will make or break osu!, just my perspective on the matter. As stated above, a simple leaderboard filter would be absolutely fantastic if thats a realistic balance between workload and results.

EDIT: And beyond leaderboards, osu!mania does very little (aside from multiplayer) that other clients do not while being far more limited in a variety of other areas. The leaderboards alone are not what causes me to take this stance, however they are a very relevant factor.
Makiba
I agree! pls support it
jedimage
Please !!!
[Ping]
I also agree with mint that the change would create an incentive for players to practice on other keycounts, which would in turn caused a new scene of playing and mapping that we had never seen before.

In my opinion, other keycounts deserve more love. Having many keycounts is a really strong point of Osu!Mania which had been shadowed by the current overall Mania ranking system. This is especially true for the mapping and modding community as people aren't comfortable mapping or modding "foreign" keycounts. The change in leaderboard would most likely caused a large impact to this, and more maps from other keycounts would be made and played.

Edited: Also it's either I missed it in this long forum or no one has mentioned this. In game rank for Mania should show the users' preferred keycounts as a default and shows rank for all of the keycounts when one hovers mouse on them.

I know this might be tricky to implement in (depending on how osu!'s in game rank is structured - hopefully if it's using class you could inherit from it or something along those lines).
Noderum

WalterToro wrote:

Hi people,

A reminder to be civil and keep the topic of the discussion, if you want to support (or not) this request is your choice, but please dont derail this thread as you can see is very important to the actual o!m community.

Hope something can be built up from this.
Nothing was derailed, Peppy ended all further discussion with his wordy comment that couldve easily summarized to "no". Of course it's important(in fact a necessity) and that's what makes it so bad because he doesn't care and the fact that people still got hope is baffling.
Piggy

Noderum wrote:

WalterToro wrote:

Hi people,

A reminder to be civil and keep the topic of the discussion, if you want to support (or not) this request is your choice, but please dont derail this thread as you can see is very important to the actual o!m community.

Hope something can be built up from this.
Nothing was derailed, Peppy ended all further discussion with his wordy comment that couldve easily summarized to "no". Of course it's important(in fact a necessity) and that's what makes it so bad because he doesn't care and the fact that people still got hope is baffling.

Derailing comments and comments that provided no content were removed. Discussion continued. Also I don't think it's bright to summarize peppy's comment to a "no".
Noderum

Piggy wrote:

Derailing comments and comments that provided no content were removed. Discussion continued. Also I don't think it's bright to summarize peppy's comment to a "no".
Whatever you may think is the best way to tackle the summary, the only logical conclusion you can possibly draw from Peppy's statement is "It'll take 6 months, so I won't do it". It's complete nonsense and and he's justifying his own laziness by taking it disingenuously at face value instead of realizing that people literally only want separate leaderboard. Literally yanderedev.
-mint-

Noderum wrote:

Nothing was derailed
> enter 5 etterna chuds saying some shit about yanderedev

(i'm aware that you aren't necessarily condemning their actions either but saying that there wasnt some attempt to derail the conversation is untrue)
edit. never mind about this bit


also, what is the point in playing it off like he doesnt care? so just like that, the person in charge doesnt want change so its completely and utterly pointless to even try to push for it? what are you trying to say here?


as piggy said it is a bit misleading to just brush peppy's entire post off as a simple "no". he has concerns as a developer in implementing these changes. it is thus the responsibility of the people requesting these changes to propose solutions remedying his concerns. so your statement saying that he "ended all further discussion" is also incorrect.


in addition, there's absolutely no harm in just... letting people be? if you think the case is hopeless good on you. but you never really know for sure. take the whole mirror mod thing for example. peppy brushed it aside for years (though he did have it implemented in lazer) and then all of a sudden interest in its implementation started brewing up again, and it was implemented. no matter how reluctant you think peppy was in doing so, it was still implemented. at any rate, there's no point in telling people they should abandon a cause when theres no real consequential bearing. just let people do their thing. theyre clearly passionate for this cause.


and dont treat this as some sort of defense of peppy. im sure we both have our reservations towards him, but can we at least just try to do something and not brush off this entire thing as hopeless.
seag
I think peppy just misunderstood what we wanted, thinking it's a lot more work than it really is.
hna
please smh
Aishdoll-
What about 5k,6k,8k,and 9k?
There are some player that very good in it but bad at other key
sillypilly
This feature is mainly wanted for tournaments selection.
like, so you can't be rank 2000 from only playing 4 key and then join 7 key world cup.
so from that perspective, considering there isn't really and other key count tourneys, it wouldn't be implemented.
Lights

sillypilly wrote:

This feature is mainly wanted for tournaments selection.
like, so you can't be rank 2000 from only playing 4 key and then join 7 key world cup.
so from that perspective, considering there isn't really and other key count tourneys, it wouldn't be implemented.
until there are and then someone asks for it. it wouldnt be any harder to do it for any given keycount than it would be to do it just for 4 and 7 key
[LS]PositoniX
this is useful for reasons beyond tournaments. 4k and 7k are almost like different gamemodes in terms of everything. pp, playstyles, etc. so it makes it so 4k players cant farm as well, and 4k players end up being forced to learn 7k in order to gain ranks, which shouldnt be needed. if someone only wants to play 4k but also wants to gain ranks and gain recognition from the community, they should be allowed to do so.

supprot for this request
Bakuretsue

seag wrote:

I think peppy just misunderstood what we wanted, thinking it's a lot more work than it really is.
cba reworking a fundamental for a perfect vsrg after 13 years am I right.
Connormgs

Bakuretsue wrote:

seag wrote:

I think peppy just misunderstood what we wanted, thinking it's a lot more work than it really is.
cba reworking a fundamental for a perfect vsrg after 13 years am I right.
osumania is around 8 years old, he's had way more than enough time to implement changes to make the game better but he only cares about standard mode. took him til 2019 to implement a mirror mod i do not see him ever separating key ranks as that would take time away from working on osu standard which is where all of his donations come from.
Lights

Connormgs wrote:

Bakuretsue wrote:

seag wrote:

I think peppy just misunderstood what we wanted, thinking it's a lot more work than it really is.
cba reworking a fundamental for a perfect vsrg after 13 years am I right.
osumania is around 8 years old, he's had way more than enough time to implement changes to make the game better but he only cares about standard mode. took him til 2019 to implement a mirror mod i do not see him ever separating key ranks as that would take time away from working on osu standard which is where all of his donations come from.
why dedicated time and resources to maybe be in the top 5 best VSRGs when you can maintain your monopoly on the circle clicking genre? Sticking to your money maker isn't exactly a bad idea, its just kind of frustrating to get a half-assed VSRG game mode.
loafusofbread

Noderum wrote:

Piggy wrote:

Derailing comments and comments that provided no content were removed. Discussion continued. Also I don't think it's bright to summarize peppy's comment to a "no".
Whatever you may think is the best way to tackle the summary, the only logical conclusion you can possibly draw from Peppy's statement is "It'll take 6 months, so I won't do it". It's complete nonsense and and he's justifying his own laziness by taking it disingenuously at face value instead of realizing that people literally only want separate leaderboard. Literally yanderedev.
Calling Peppy lazy because he's not implementing features you personally want to see in the game is pretty low and ignorant in my opinion. Regarding Peppy's response as a simple "no" is projecting your idea of his character (which is really just due to you, a mania player, having diffierent priorities from him, the lead developer of a massive project) onto his response. It's completely unproductive to take out your frustrations on the person leading the development of the game when you want to get something changed.

Peppy is the person who would be in charge of turning this into a real feature, and he is rightfully focusing on the logistics of actually implementing it. I think that once he's formed an idea of what people want, he sticks with that idea for a long time, regardless if it's what people actually think. I think that the phrase that is most indicative of his position is: "in a way the community would be satisfied"; he's formed an idea of what the community wants and is skeptical about the community response if the feature is implemented at the most basic functional level. In case this wasn't clear enough already, he's also dedicated a large portion of his response to going through what he believes to be the likely answers from the community in regards to the questions relevant to actually implementing this. I'm not a huge defender of Peppy since my ideas for osu! are often in opposition to his, but I think the most bad you can say about him is that he has a very specific vision for what he wants the game to be and has very strict ideas of how certain things need to be implemented. Even despite all of that, he's gone to the trouble of writing this lengthy and in-depth response for the purpose of interacting with this portion of the community, and he has explicity stated at the end of his post that he is willing to make this work if it can fit with the constraints that he has to work with as the person who has to worry about the logistics of how this is going to be implemented. I think it's incredibly generous of him to go to these lengths of consideration, seeing how his focus is on osu!lazer and this request would be made much easier by doing it in lazer, according to the man himself.

Considering all of this, I think the solution that everyone would be fairly happy with would be to just implement this at the most basic functional level like the concept Piggy showed earlier, and just wait for lazer for more thorough implementation. (There's already a site that does this, so honestly if it's not going to be integrated more closely with the game then I don't see the point in spending precious time on it now instead of just waiting for lazer, however long it takes).

On Peppy being "lazy": Peppy has been working on this game for 13 years and he clearly cares a lot about it or he wouldn't still be doing this. Why else would he be working on this game if not out of passion? He even does a lot more to interact with the community of his game than what would be expected of the lead developer of a project as large as osu!. Please try to actually communicate with the man for the sake of getting change to happen.

Also the comparison to Yanderedev is completely unwarranted. I can't think of any one who deserves to be compared to him.
seag
4814 dollars of support money is saying 'we want this'. The less popular gamemode became the 3rd highest star priority post in a few days, and the feature requested is not even close to the work needed for the mirror mod. I'm just wondering if we're going to get a second post from peppy after reading our response to him.
Noderum

seag wrote:

4814 dollars of support money is saying 'we want this'. The less popular gamemode became the 3rd highest star priority post in a few days, and the feature requested is not even close to the work needed for the mirror mod. I'm just wondering if we're going to get a second post from peppy after reading our response to him.
lol are people starting to become aware that their money is wasted and peppy has literally no reason to do any work as he gets money regardless??? You paid him for writing an essay on how it's never gonna happened and you call that progress.👏👏👏

Btw I checked to see how this thread was doing as I expected more vain arguments but seems like everyone gave up hope from this.
abraker

Noderum wrote:

lol are people starting to become aware that their money is wasted and peppy has literally no reason to do any work as he gets money regardless??? You paid him for writing an essay on how it's never gonna happened and you call that progress.👏👏👏
You mean the money the keeps the servers running? iirc it takes $27,000 or some insane amount a month to keep them running
Lights

abraker wrote:

Noderum wrote:

lol are people starting to become aware that their money is wasted and peppy has literally no reason to do any work as he gets money regardless??? You paid him for writing an essay on how it's never gonna happened and you call that progress.👏👏👏
You mean the money the keeps the servers running? iirc it takes $27,000 or some insane amount a month to keep them running
gonna go ahead and doubt that. show me an invoice.
Flanster
Considering the email you get when donating 4$ which states "your support keeps osu! running for around 6.3 minutes" its a rather good estimate. Do the math.
Lights

Flanster wrote:

Considering the email you get when donating 4$ which states "your support keeps osu! running for around 6.3 minutes" its a rather good estimate. Do the math.
I'm not interested in derailing the topic any further, so ill leave it with this:

I can make an email that says that too. 27,000 dollars a month in server costs is absolutely insane in terms of cost (its not like osu! is hosting game servers with high tickrates or dealing with a zillion requests per second like a social media app). you can get a dedi with great specs for 100s a month, you can get some absurdly powerful servers for 1000. for 27,000 dollars either someone is dropping the ball somewhere or that number is inflated a bit. I'll still happily support the game.
KenZ
I support this.
[LS]PositoniX
here's a proposal for how this might look (sorry for trash quality, my graphic design skill is pretty bad)





obviously quality on these pics is pretty horrible but this is just an idea of how it can be implemented
seag

seag wrote:

I think if we keep it minimalistic we have a higher chance of it being considered as a feature. If we have it as an additional filter on top of existing ones, such as country, it'll be harder and strenuous on the databases.
Bukwan
pls pls pls make this a thing
WePlant
we do not request hyper complex stuff. just 2 separated ranks with (optional) leaderboard.
-mint-
this wasnt linked yet so i thought id link it here cuz its related

https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/pull/6146
Lights

-mint- wrote:

this wasnt linked yet so i thought id link it here cuz its related

https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/pull/6146
woo
peppy
Thanks for all the support for the feature. We've express trained this one into production: https://twitter.com/ppy/status/1270646756569567233
Mestro
Thank you peppy for continuing to listen to the communities ever growing demands. This is definitely something that was needed
WalterToro
Marking this as added and moved to completed requests.

Will also add that im happy for this to be a reality, other things can be addressed and improved but this is a big step forward, thanks ppy!
seag
Thank you so much!
[LS]PositoniX
thank you for adding this lord peppy/ephemeral. there's still a lot of room for imrpovment though... you should be able to set your favorite keycount and see other people's keycount specific ranks. needless to say, this is a good step going forward.
Tachyon
woah! they did something for mania players in this century !! Pog!
Matix99
Well fuck me sideways. I said before that "this minigame will continue to be 4K-centric for all eternity", but peppy proved me wrong. Now I feel motivated to play 7K again, and once I fix my online setup I should be able to get top50 country if not better(7K obviously, I'm nowhere near country top50 allK, too many high level 4K players in here), especially after all that offline 9K/10K I've been playing. Might even be able to make my overall top plays less of a 4K sea.

EDIT: I'm probably top50 already and just need to submit any play to update. 49th's best 7k play is 82pp, mine is 111pp.
Lights

Matix99 wrote:

Well fuck me sideways. I said before that "this minigame will continue to be 4K-centric for all eternity", but peppy proved me wrong. Now I feel motivated to play 7K again, and once I fix my online setup I should be able to get top50 country if not better(7K obviously, I'm nowhere near country top50 allK, too many high level 4K players in here), especially after all that offline 9K/10K I've been playing. Might even be able to make my overall top plays less of a 4K sea.

EDIT: I'm probably top50 already and just need to submit any play to update. 49th's best 7k play is 82pp, mine is 111pp.
uhm. lol.
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