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[Proposal-mania] change chord guidelines in 4k normal/hard diffs

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Total Posts
10
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
267 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty

normal rc wrote:

Avoid chords with more than 2 notes. This includes long note patterns that involve notes in more than two columns.

hard rc wrote:

Avoid chords with more than 3 notes. This includes long note patterns that involve notes in more than three columns.
whilst i do understand the intent behind preventing high density chords in these difficulty levels, this proposal is more focused on the second part of the guidelines involving long notes. i feel it's heavily restrictive in a lot of cases and it's not unusual to see maps breaking this guideline.

in normal diffs, it's very common to use 2 note chords to map sounds like snares/cymbal crashes. however due to this guideline the mapper is forced to break consistency and lose expression if they want to include these sounds during a long note, especially longer ones.

and while it is fine to break consistency/expression in favor of playability, i really don't think having a double during a long note is out of reach for normal difficulty level players in many cases if the density is low. the examples in the boxes below are relatively the same difficulty level despite example 2 breaking the guideline:

example 1
example 2

same idea for hard diffs except it applies to 3 note chords with LN instead of 2. hard diffs can feature a lot more LN based patterns so this guideline can be even more restrictive. similar examples to the case in normal except with example 4 breaking the guideline. these are also almost the same in difficulty:

example 3
example 4

proposed solution: remove the second sentence from both of these guidelines.

i think its fine to be careful with higher density chords, but there is a pretty large amount of exceptions to this guideline which makes me think it would be better to remove it.

lenpai's solution: "Avoid chords with more than 2 notes. While holding long notes, a maximum of three concurrent note presses should be observed with at least a 1/1 gap between three note presses." (normal diffs only)
Last edited by Scotty , edited 3 times in total.
Peter
786 posts
Joined June 2016
Peter
For Normal difficulties i'd definitely include gaps I think using doubles when LN starts and ends 1/1 later(as in example from Scotty) is fine, player has enough time to hit this pattern

For hard there are many situations that could be fine or wrong I'd leave it up to BNs to determine if it's fine, I think the guideline would need to be long to include all possible combinations you can always use 2 lns and 2 notes or 3 notes and 1 ln etc.
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,644 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal
for normal, it should be allowed only if the double is not same hand as LN and has 1/1 gap before and after the double if LN lasts 2 beat or more.

hard i agree
Amiichii
719 posts
Joined November 2016
Amiichii
For Normal diff, I did agree cause limiting pattern like it make the Normal diff more like easy diff because easy diff is allow to make single note between 2/1s LN or lower. And currently Normal diff at least have 2* to get Blue icon. that mean the player of this diff is should be increased from beginner and newbie player to newbie player until advance player. so i think this restriction guidelines make the normal diff not enough for creativity cause resticted by guidelines.

Well, another solution if we cant remove that addtional sentence is, i thought add more addtional explanation for that guidelines might be good. be like

"Avoid chords with more than 2 notes. This includes long note patterns that involve notes in more than two columns. 'However, If the chord notes have 1/1s or lower gap from latest note before the chords and later note after the chords is fine.'"
Also, this additional explanation can be implement to hard diff, so the guideline will be like

"Avoid chords with more than 3 notes. This includes long note patterns that involve notes in more than three columns. 'However, If the chord notes have 1/2s or lower gap from from latest note before the chords and later note after the chords is fine is fine.'"
This addtional sentences also still work for what scotty point.
Last edited by Amiichii , edited 4 times in total.
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
267 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty
i think using gaps might make the guideline overly complicated. 1/2 and 1/1 are very common rhythms in normal diffs so i think there would still be some situations where using 1/2 notes with chords like this could be acceptable.

example


i definitely wouldn't suggest using chords with LN in cases of higher density, but i think it would be better to look out for those on a case by case basis.

like amii said normal difficulties aren't easy difficulties. i think it's fine to test players finger independance a bit more especially considering easy difficulties already have this same guideline (which i definitely think is suitable for easy diffs).

for the case of hard difficulties my opinion is mostly the same as peter's
Last edited by Scotty , edited 1 time in total.
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
isolated rice quads in 4k are essentially no-brainer stuff to hit in comparison to 3-note chords where you have to "think" about finger coordination which gives the proposal some merit

i find it odd that "impact chords" (chords with LN heads or rice ignoring LN bodies) and "holding ln + hit something" are treated in the same vein.

Normal RC:

rework: "Avoid chords with more than 2 notes. While holding long notes, a maximum of three concurrent note presses should be observed with at least a 1/1 gap between three note presses."

this would allow for 1/2 presses sandwiched between the LN + double hits.

I would argue though that triples for isolated finishers are perfectly fine but that's a different topic.

Hard RC:

just remove it there's so much potential flexibility with LNs + chords that gets limited by this guideline. Plus the earlier comment i made on quadding

There would be cases where there would be LN body + chord combinations that would be "too difficult" for hard diffs but these heavily rely on transitions and the notes that surround them as opposed to the pattern being hard as-is

ex. 1/1 [123] LN + 1/2 [4] hit in the middle of the ln
Last edited by lenpai , edited 3 times in total.
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
267 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty
rework: "Avoid chords with more than 2 notes. While holding long notes, a maximum of three concurrent note presses should be observed with at least a 1/1 gap between three note presses."
i think this is a pretty good solution.
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal
Better late than never. I disagree with this change unless a distinction is made. I think the hard part about hitting a pattern that involves holding + hitting notes is when you have to hit with the same hand as you are holding. The density doesn't really matter that much otherwise (at least horizontal density if that makes sense).

The examples you propose are cases where the extra note doesn't really increase the difficulty all that much.

This pattern for a normal should not be acceptable (or at least not common) in my opinion:



But if the pattern was like this it might as well work fine, depending on the BPM. I imagine the baseline is 150 therefore it should be fine.

Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
267 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty

juankristal wrote:

Better late than never. I disagree with this change unless a distinction is made. I think the hard part about hitting a pattern that involves holding + hitting notes is when you have to hit with the same hand as you are holding. The density doesn't really matter that much otherwise (at least horizontal density if that makes sense).

The examples you propose are cases where the extra note doesn't really increase the difficulty all that much.

This pattern for a normal should not be acceptable (or at least not common) in my opinion:

But if the pattern was like this it might as well work fine, depending on the BPM. I imagine the baseline is 150 therefore it should be fine.
removed the images cause they make the quote a bit too large

i would agree that if notes are placed on the same hand holding the long note, then that would cause a substantial increase in difficulty compared to separating the chord to a different hand from the long note.

but personally i don't think it's entirely worth adding this distinction to this guideline in particular. the increase in difficulty comes from notes placed on the same hand as the long note and not necessarily from the addition of the chord. as long as chords aren't used it's possible to place any amount of notes on the same hand as an LN without breaking this guideline which makes adding this distinction not too effective here.

perhaps a different guideline could be proposed for notes on the same hand as long notes in general for easy/normal diffs, but i wouldn't recommend it as it is something that is heavily dependant on context.
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
After some discussion with the BNs on the RC Server we came to the following agreemend:

4K Normal Guideline change:
Avoid chords with more than 2 notes. This includes long note patterns that involve notes in more than two columns. However, using a double that is played with the other hand than the long note is fine.

7K Normal Guideline change:
Avoid chords with more than 3 notes. This includes long note patterns that involve notes in more than three columns. However, using a double that is played with the other hand than the long note is fine.

We kept Hard as they are because we couldn't came with a good solution. Most of it would either restrict it too much or give too much freedom and stuff could get out of hand. So for now it's fine as it is but we will keep observing it and apply changes if needed.

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3933
Last edited by Feerum , edited 2 times in total.
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