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[Proposal-mania] reverse shields in lower difficulties

posted
Total Posts
8
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
286 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty
reverse shields are a very common pattern in mania. in practice people are typically more careful with their usage on lower diffs. since there is a bit of a consensus on this, i think it would make sense for RC to have a clear stance regarding reverse shields to reduce ambiguity in cases like beatmapsets/1115875/discussion/2331919/timeline#/1500006

reverse shields (placing a note after a long note is released on the same column) can affect readability and require coordination to hit depending on the interval between the release of the long note and the following note.
btw i'm not sure if they're called shields or reverse shields aaaa

proposed solution:

adding guidelines for easy and normal difficulties. for easy i think it would be appropriate to prevent 1/2 reverse shields and faster, like

proposal - easy wrote:

Avoid placing a note after the release of a long note on the same column within a 1/2 interval or faster


same thing for normal however this time i would only prevent 1/4 and faster

proposal - normal wrote:

Avoid placing a note after the release of a long note on the same column within a 1/4 interval or faster


wording could be improved but this is what i could come up with.
Last edited by Scotty , edited 1 time in total.
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,727 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal
neutral on easy (dont see it much myself)

agree on normal
Unpredictable
Beatmap Nominator
383 posts
Joined December 2015
Unpredictable
agreeing with dudehacker as well.

I honestly don't see it being a problem in easy diffs. It happens actually quite more than often in easy diffs to the point where it just feels odd to place a guideline on it. I don't even think there's even problem with readability or coordination if we are basing it off 180 BPM in regards to easy diffs since it's super straightforward honestly but that might be just me personally.

Normals I can agree with, they should not have reverse shields at all unless the bpm was decently low to warrant something like that.
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
286 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty
regarding normals, croco pointed out a few days ago that the normal rc already contains a guideline that says "Avoid using any form of 1/4 shield pattern. The coordination required for this pattern is too difficult for players at this level."

this kinda seems like the same thing im saying in this proposal, but the rc definition of shields is "A note that appears in the same column immediately before the beginning of a long note." so i guess at the very least this could be corrected if its intent was to prevent notes after the release of long notes too.

@unpredictable honestly i'm not sure myself. 1/2 and even 1/4 reverse shields are really easy to play for anybody whos played for a while, so it's difficult to tell from a playing perspective. but i can say i've rarely seen them being used in easy diffs
Last edited by Scotty , edited 1 time in total.
Roasted Chicken
264 posts
Joined December 2016
Roasted Chicken
I watched replays from the new qualified map "Getta Banban" that has this pattern. Out of the bottom 4, 3 missed the pattern. The 4th person barely hit it. However everyone above the bottom 4 hit the pattern. Looking at how much they played it seems the literal first timers just can't hit this pattern, while the slightly more experienced (300+ playcount) can hit this pattern pretty well.

I think making a guideline out of this might be too much after all, but the pattern should be used like sparingly? Basically in favorable situations and not with a lot of things happening around it.
kaythen
205 posts
Joined January 2015
kaythen
Easy - No. That is hardly a shield. The note in your example is not close enough to the long note to really call that a shield to be honest. 1/4 I'll consider it.

Normal - Sure, but only really with high bpms (I'd say around 200 and above).

Reverse shields seem to be this thing people perceive as difficult because normal shields are really hard to hit, but just because the names are similar doesn't mean they are similar in difficulty.
Reverse shields are really not that hard. You instinctively lift your finger to hit the note after the long note so the release on the long note just comes naturally. Only time it doesn't really do that is if it's really fast and mushed so closely together (stuff you'd only see in o2jam styled maps that are in the Insane range equivalent or higher). I honestly wouldn't bother with this guideline at all.

Anyways, Easy = no
Normal = depends on speed (high speed)
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Moved on Scotty's request. Proposal seem to be dropped.
Last edited by Feerum , edited 1 time in total.
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
286 posts
Joined October 2017
Topic Starter
Scotty
a bit late since i'm posting this after feerum moved it, but decided to drop this since most people seem to be neutral/disagree. though people seem to agree for normal diffs, i think this can be dealt with in the proposal for the keymode specific rc as it only requires a minor readjustment of one of the guidelines
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