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Generalise mode-specific guidelines about custom hitsounds replacing defaults

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12
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
957 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
-Mo-
Context

osu! and osu!catch currently have this as a mode-specific guideline:
Avoid replacing the hit finish in soft/normal samplesets with frequently used custom hitsound samples. Using these finishes to represent snare/bass drums or a song's melody can sound obnoxious for anyone disabling beatmap hitsounds. Replacing hit whistles/claps is recommended because those samples are used more often.


osu!taiko has this as a mode-specific guideline:
If custom hitsounds are in use, they should be drum-related. Heavier/lower tones should be set as don and a lighter/higher tones should be set as kat.


osu!mania currently does not seem to have any equivelant guideline. I'm not a mania guy so if there's a reason for that someone please tell me.

tl;dr of why these exist: hitsounding should still sound reasonable when someone toggles off custom hitsounds (i.e. don't use hitfinish like a clap).

Proposal

Instead of similar guidelines being present in each of the gamemodes, we could just generalise this rule and place it into the general ranking criteria.

Custom hitsounds should be an appropriate substitute for the default hitsound that they replace. Cymbal crashes should replace the hitfinish sound and should be used sparingly. In osu!taiko, deeper sounds should replace dons, and lighter sounds should replace kats. Replacing the inappropriate hitsound can sound obnoxious to players who disable custom hitsounds.


Why do this

+ This would also cover the case of swapping claps and whistles around (try it, it doesn't sound as cool).
+ Having the same or similar thing in multiple places is messy and can be confusing.
+ General RC has a section for Audio, mode-specific ones don't (and creating one just for a single guideline looks weird). This makes it easier to search when I just want to check what the rules are about hitsounds.
+ Fixes the sub-par grammar in the taiko guideline.

Why not do this

- Generalising might make interpretation a bit less clear.
Last edited by -Mo- , edited 4 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

-Mo- wrote:

osu!mania currently does not seem to have any equivelant guideline. I'm not a mania guy so if there's a reason for that someone please tell me.


My guess is to allow custom hitsounds to act as limited form of what sample import allows. If you are going to import a few samples it would make sense to just use them as custom hitsounds.
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
Unpredictable
Beatmap Nominator
383 posts
Joined December 2015
Unpredictable

-Mo- wrote:

osu!mania currently does not seem to have any equivelant guideline. I'm not a mania guy so if there's a reason for that someone please tell me.


As a mania BN, what you're proposing I believe is fine. Don't think I should need to elaborate further to why since it was already discussed from what I saw earlier with Kamuy but I think this shouldn't affect mania significantly at all. All in all, I think this is a good proposal.

One thing I noticed though was a bit of the grammar on the new proposal. Wouldn't it be better if it was "For osu!taiko" rather than "In osu!taiko". Just sounds odd saying "In osu!taiko" imo lol.

Really nothing much to add other than that, it's a solid proposal. Nice.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
I honestly don't think it makes much sense to put this into the general RC if the standard and taiko guidelines are different. It seems illogical to put a sentence regarding only taiko in the general RC, the way it is now is already clear enough. If you want to add something about swapping claps and whistles around, that can still be done with the current guideline and also the "sub-par grammar" in the taiko guideline can be fixed separately.
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
957 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
-Mo-
The main purpose of this is not so much clarification, but more just general cleanup of the RCs. Both the standard and taiko guidelines basically boil down to "don't substitute customs inappropriately", so I think there's potential to clean this up, even if my proposed wording isn't perfect.
Last edited by -Mo- , edited 1 time in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
Sure, but the problem is that hitsounds in standard and taiko work very differently, which is why you have to use an own sentence for taiko and that defeats the purpose of generalization as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I'd say it makes it even less clear because people have to go to the general section of the RC to find a taiko related guideline. Even if the idea behind both guidelines is similar, they are still different so having them separated doesn't seem like an issue that needs to be cleaned up.
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
957 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
-Mo-
The taiko case was added as an example of how the guideline should be interpreted, but also is useful since we would be essentially replacing the existing guideline with this one.

Assuming we are fine with adding the guideline to mania, I still don't think we should have the exact same thing copy-pasted in three different areas.

A compromise I could consider is leaving it as is but adding a sub section under each mode for audio - that would improve searching slightly but doesn't do anything about having the same thing in more than one place.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
I'd think


Avoid replacing the hit finish in soft/normal samplesets with frequently used custom hitsound samples. Using these finishes to represent snare/bass drums or a song's melody can sound obnoxious for anyone disabling beatmap hitsounds. Replacing hit whistles/claps is recommended because those samples are used more often. Taiko is exempt from this guideline and has its own mode-specific hitsound sample guideline.

- make the current thing a guideline in general, but exempt taiko?
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I think taiko should be left out of this. Replacing finish hitsounds with commonly used hitsounds in taiko is already highly discouraged by gameplay, a guideline isn't necessary. If you frequently use hitfinishes for custom hitsounds, the gameplay will play terribly, and it won't be rankable regardless of this guideline.

The current taiko guideline covers most reasonable use cases. This is also ignoring the fact that 99.9% of taiko beatmaps use no custom hitsounds at all.
Last edited by tatatat , edited 3 times in total.
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
957 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
-Mo-
Kinda forgot about it affecting gameplay in taiko, makes sense to leave it out then in that case.

Using the current wording wouldn't cover other poor but not as poor cases like switching whistles and claps, is this something we'd be fine with leaving?
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
i'd be fine with using

Noffy wrote:

Avoid replacing the hit finish in soft/normal samplesets with frequently used custom hitsound samples. Using these finishes to represent snare/bass drums or a song's melody can sound obnoxious for anyone disabling beatmap hitsounds. Replacing hit whistles/claps is recommended because those samples are used more often. Taiko is exempt from this guideline and has its own mode-specific hitsound sample guideline.


..so long as "Taiko" is replaced with "osu!taiko"

-Mo- wrote:

Using the current wording wouldn't cover other poor but not as poor cases like switching whistles and claps, is this something we'd be fine with leaving?


personally speaking yes, since i havent seen it being an issue nearly as much as the specifics mentioned in the current guideline
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
957 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
-Mo-
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3357

edit: it is done
Last edited by -Mo- , edited 1 time in total.
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