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Update genre and language tagging guideline

posted
Total Posts
12
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton
follow-up to https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7281913 and https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7282243

after some additional discussion in #modding with Serizawa, the current guideline seems pretty useless because the online genre and language are often set after a map gets ranked... meaning the mapper is unable to replicate the site search unless they guess the genre/language correctly in the tags (which is apparently tricky sometimes given how vague they are)

original:
Song genre and language should be added to the tags of a beatmap. This is to enable users to search using these terms in-game like they do on the website. For instrumental tracks, "instrumental" is considered the language tag. Exceptions would be when language and/or genre are not clear, or multiple apply. In case of the latter, one fitting tag for each may be applied.


proposed:
Song genre(s) and language(s) should be added to the tags of a beatmap. Use `instrumental` in place of the language if there is none.




https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3086
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
Honestly... I don't see anything wrong with the first guideline. It seems like it just gives more info as to why you should include the genre/language, and potential edge cases.

I don't interpret the first/current guideline as requiring you to guess the online language/genre tags anyways. The guideline just tells you that the song genre and language should be added to the tags.

I do agree that the guideline could be reworded to Song genre(s) and language(s) should be added to the tags of a beatmap. because sometimes there are multiple genres and languages. although that might conflict with the wording later in the guideline "or multiple apply. In case of the latter, one fitting tag for each may be applied."

Anyways, my opinion is this change isn't necessary.
Nifty
902 posts
Joined September 2014
Nifty
Bye bye lameo guideline enforcing extremely broad genres (some of which arent even genres), hello only having "weirdcore" and "experimental" in my aphex twin map tags :)

Also tata - the bng is told to interpret the current guideline as online genre/language tags. This fix is to make it so people like you who don't know that is how the current guideline is being interpreted can be correct in assuming that online genre/language tags aren't required. The revision of this guideline has done more harm than good, with several maps ignoring the guideline, technically ranking with "unrankable" tags since mappers and bns still don't understand the current guideline.

Basically this is a reversion to what we used to have that everyone is used to because nobody but a few bns that are forcing the current guideline understands or wants to adhere to it.
Last edited by Nifty , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton

tatatat wrote:

I don't interpret the first/current guideline as requiring you to guess the online language/genre tags anyways. The guideline just tells you that the song genre and language should be added to the tags.


the BNG did interpret it like this, as did the original authors of the guideline. it's because of the second sentence in the original: "This is to enable users to search using these terms in-game like they do on the website."

this proposal removes the possibility of forcing that interpretation, and cleans up bloat in the wording. it's exactly what you said you want :thinking:
Last edited by clayton , edited 2 times in total.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
you are just removing the idea of having a similar search with the site in tags, i don't get why this is benefitial at all, the idea is to search through genres and languages ingame and it doesn't tell you the exceptions either.

if your problem is how you can't really guess what they are gonna put as online labels, that's a limitation regarding the site's system because you can't add multiple labels and some disconnections can happen, but the tag guideline itself is fine. Furthermore, you can just ask the people responsible for that to look at the tags (which they will most likely do because it's way easier)
MBomb
MBomb
Strongly agree with trynna here. Current guideline seems much better than the proposed one to me, since the proposed one causes a disconnect between searching on site and searching in game.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton
I agree with you guys, matching in-game search to the site in this way would be nice. the problem is that it's literally impossible if the online genre/language aren't set before the map hits Qualified--- how is the mapper supposed to know what settings a future person will set? unless the people setting the genre/language proactively contact every mapper to update their tags before the map hits Ranked, the tags have the potential to not match

and yes Trynna it is a problem with the system moreso than the guideline. if you'd like to fix up the system real quick instead of this guideline i don't think anyone would have objections
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
The current guideline implies that metal songs should have "rock" in the tags which is just wrong. The same can be said about "anime" and "video game" which aren't even actual genres. I don't think it makes sense to follow the website genres at all costs since they are often incorrect/vague.

However, you should keep this sentence: "Exceptions would be when the language and/or the genre are not clear."
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 2 times in total.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
"if you'd like to fix up the system real quick instead of this guideline i don't think anyone would have objections"
What we currently have is already a way to fix their flawed system that doesn't allow you to add multiple labels nor use the things set online to search ingame, so i don't see why you have any objections

"The current guideline implies that metal songs should have "rock" in the tags which is just wrong. The same can be said about "anime" and "video game" which aren't even actual genres."
Those are generic genres that are not final and you still have the option to add different ones too, for example using anime and pop will work most of the time, sometimes video game electronic and so on. same thing for rock and metal since they are similar in a way and just specifying stuff
Mordred
532 posts
Joined October 2015
Mordred
could just, you know, fix the ALREADY EXISTING genre / language shit and make it work ingame instead of doing a stupid workaround that's useless in 9/10 cases

also it baffles me that it's still not possible for the mapper or even bns to set that themselves
Last edited by Mordred , edited 1 time in total.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
It is something people have been trying to do but it just takes years and nothing happens, just to give you an idea of how old this request is, there's a github issue by mao asking for them to add permission for members of the qat and the host to set genre/language themselves but it's currently not possible on the new site, i'd love to have bns do that aswell
Last edited by Trynna , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
clayton
I'll look into that instead, though I'm pretty sure this guideline will still need to be reworded a little bit afterward. can someone move to finalized/denied
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